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SD's friend can't come over any more...and here's why. - Page 5

post #81 of 120
I grew up being the kid whose house everyone came to. It was rare for me or my sister to go play or sleepover at someone else's house. They all came to play or sleepover at our house. We were the ones with the stable home and regular meals and a parent always available. The other kids were mostly left home alone and given a few dollars to find their own dinner.

I plan to make our house the place where my children and their friends feel most comfortable playing and sleeping over. And I intend to always be there. Then at least I won't have to worry so much about other friends' parents.
post #82 of 120
What I find interesting is that it's perfectly ok to be sexist (well, most perps are male, so we should scrutinize them more comfortably, and that's just being cautious), but if I came in and said, "Well, I didn't know her husband was African-American, and I won't let my child over there without more closely scrutinizing him, since I know African-Americans are disproportionately more likely to commit homicide", I'd be flamed from here to there.

(I'd never say that IRL, because I'm not about to stereotype a whole group of people, whether gender, race, etc. I'm using it as an example).

Why is it ok to act that way toward MEN as a group, when it's completely unacceptable and wrong to act that way toward another group?
post #83 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
Why is it ok to act that way toward MEN as a group, when it's completely unacceptable and wrong to act that way toward another group?
You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do. And if the worst I get called over it is "Reverse Discriminator," well I shall wear that badge proudly.

I think it is yet another example of misogyny actually, when people get up in arms about some dude not having the privilege of watching my child. And yet they would happily expose children to the risk of being sexually abused, which is a VERY real and prevalent problem... ask around.

Downright scary. :
post #84 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do. And if the worst I get called over it is "Reverse Discriminator," well I shall wear that badge proudly.

I agree...I could give a *bleep* if the person is male/female/white/black whatever. If I don't know them, she's not going to be hanging out or spending the night.

"93% of juvenile sexual assault victims knew their attacker; 34.2% were family members and 58.7% acquaintences. Only seven percent of the perpetrators were strangers to the victim, according to the 2000 Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement. This study is available at the Bureau of Justice Statistics website"
post #85 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do. And if the worst I get called over it is "Reverse Discriminator," well I shall wear that badge proudly.

I think it is yet another example of misogyny actually, when people get up in arms about some dude not having the privilege of watching my child. And yet they would happily expose children to the risk of being sexually abused, which is a VERY real and prevalent problem... ask around.

Downright scary. :
No, it's an example of stereotyping an entire group of people because of a prejudice. Of course, I want to know who is watching my child, and I want to know who they are. But to determine that an entire group of people is suspect because of their gender/race/orientation/etc. is discrimination. I can't believe something like this is not only accepted, but promoted here. Nobody's getting up in arms about who watches your child; it's about someone proudly proclaiming that they have prejudice and justifying it with "I'm protecting my child".

Isn't that what people said 60 years ago when the white parents wouldn't let their children play with the African-American children? They were protecting their children, too, you know.

And i don't need to ask around...i was molested by my uncle (well, my father's cousin...we called him uncle) as a child. But, guess what, the majority of men in my childhood (in fact, *all* of them except for him) DIDN'T molest me. Should I write off an entire gender because of the actions of one person?
post #86 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by devster4fun View Post
I agree...I could give a *bleep* if the person is male/female/white/black whatever. If I don't know them, she's not going to be hanging out or spending the night.

"
I completely agree with this. Of course you need to know who your child is spending the night with/hanging out with, regardless of gender/race/orientation/ethnicity, etc. My discussion with thismama is about the fact that she has stated that she would absolutely, positively scrutinize a male more closely than a female because of the mere fact of his gender.
post #87 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
No, it's an example of stereotyping an entire group of people because of a prejudice. Of course, I want to know who is watching my child, and I want to know who they are. But to determine that an entire group of people is suspect because of their gender/race/orientation/etc. is discrimination.
Oh sorry, did you not read the part where I said:

Quote:
I. Don't. Care.
??

Coz, truly I do not. This is not prejudice without a basis, it is statistical reality. Prejudice simply means prejudgment. I make prejudgments all the time and I would hope you do too. I prejudge that if I cross the road without looking I might get hit by a car.

The difficulty with prejudice socially (around race, gender, etc), is that it is usually based on **false** or inflamed data, and serves the purpose of excluding marginalized groups further and reinforcing the power position of the dominant group.

That problem has nothing at all to do with this issue.

Fully half my female lovers and friends who I know well enough to ask about this issue were sexually abused in their childhoods by at least one perp. 50%. 1 in 2, honest to Goddess, no exaggeration. All have long term trauma from it; some have recovered via much psychotherapy, while others find their relationships and sexuality are ruined by it still in adult life.

This is a big deal. It is a common deal, too. This is not a rarity or an infrequent issue. It happens all the time.

I would not give a what group of people were responsible for 95-98% of molestations children endure. I would keep my child from them. I simply do not care what you think that makes me. I'd rather be called a few names than have my child endure this type of trauma.

I think failing to ignore this reality is downright irresponsible, and I carry my own judgments about women who take that position. However, I think it probably best to keep them to myself.
post #88 of 120
I totally agree Thismama.
In this scenerio, I prefer to err on the side of caution.
post #89 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
I completely agree with this. Of course you need to know who your child is spending the night with/hanging out with, regardless of gender/race/orientation/ethnicity, etc. My discussion with thismama is about the fact that she has stated that she would absolutely, positively scrutinize a male more closely than a female because of the mere fact of his gender.

We all make decisions about the care of our children every day. I do not believe it makes anyone "prejudice" to say they would scrutinize a male babysitter more closely. We are responsible for our kids safety. Our own gut/ experience/ fears/ dictate how we go about that. I don't think this issue is black and white. I certainly respect every parents right to make their own judgements about such an important issue as childcare or who a child visits.
post #90 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
...And i don't need to ask around...i was molested by my uncle (well, my father's cousin...we called him uncle) as a child. But, guess what, the majority of men in my childhood (in fact, *all* of them except for him) DIDN'T molest me. Should I write off an entire gender because of the actions of one person?
How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.

You know, it's just common sense. When I was a resident sleeping in the hospital I would be on call with one of the male docs and we'd be assigned to sleep in the same room (different bed, obviously). Just the two of us, alone, spending any off time we could come up with in that little room together. So, out of respect for my husband and my marriage I would walk to the other side of the hospital, find an empty call room and hang there instead.

When I travel I don't spend a lot of time alone with male traveling companions. If dh is out of town and one of his friends drops by, I'm friendly but I don't invite him in for a drink.

A lot of what happens in life occurs because of the situations that we put ourselves in. I'm not going to put my daughter into a situation in which I have to rely on a man's integrity, self control, normalcy, what-have-you, to keep her from being victimized. Instead I'm going to make careful, informed judgments about each person, the situation, and the safety for my daughter.

I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.
post #91 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.
.
Any mother who has ever left her child with anyone, of either gender, for any length of time, without being there has failed to supervise that child adequately to protect them from unnecessary exposure to risk. We can make ourselves feel better by saying "oh - I have to protect my child, so I'll give men an extra screening". That's not protecting our children. That's making ourselves feel good about how much less negligent we are than all the moms who don't do an extra screening for men.

Most children - male and female (and the number of both genders that I know well enough to ask who have been sexually abused is greater than 50%) who have been sexually abused have been abused by someone they - and their families - know and trust...people who passed the "screenings".

My mother was completely unaware that when her father was rendered hemiplegic by a brain hemorraghe when I was 6 months old, the brain damage also turned him into a pedophile. She was totally unaware that her mother would hide something like that from her. She was totally unaware that this woman would set her own grandchildren up as victims of sexual abuse. All she did was let her kids spend the night with a grandmother they adored (not realizing that was largely bought with candy). She didn't "fail to supervise us adequately".

Maybe people shouldn't be so smug about how well they protect their kids until their kids are old enough to know if that "protection" actually counted for crap. I can be smug about how 4.5 year old dd has never been left with anyone I don't trust, too - she's never really been left with anyone for more than very brief periods. I don't do any extra screenings, because there are about four people - male or female - I'll leave her with at all. So what? She's 4.5! There's no way to keep her in a plastic bubble for the rest of her life, and that means she may well end up victimized at some point.
post #92 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.
Good for you. I won't send my daughter or my sons to a strange man's house - or a strange woman's house - to play unsupervised, either. Leaving my kids with people I don't know makes no sense to me.
post #93 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.

I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.
First of all, thanks, but it wasn't my mother's fault (or my father's fault...why is blame being placed on the females for not "adequately" supervising?)...I was at my paternal grandmother's so I guess she was the one not adequately supervising...? (well, my great-uncle's house, technically...she lived with my great-uncle/great-aunt to help take care of my great-aunt (alzheimer's), and the cousin was the great-uncle's son (I know, you need a family tree to figure this out)). Point being, nowhere even near being my mother's fault.

And I wouldn't send my daughter to a strange man's house either. Nor would I send her to a strange woman's, either. "Strange" is the key word in this situation for me, not "man" or "woman". I'm not going to live my life in fear and suspicion because of the actions of one person...it would be like if I'd been mugged by an African-American (or Hispanic, or Asian) and then decided I'd never be alone with a person of that race/ethnicity because of what had happened with a completely different person. Yes, I completely agree with checking out whoever will be at the place your child is playing, being cautious around new people, watching his/her interactions with your child, paying attention to whatever you gut is telling you, asking questions. THAT to me is common sense; singling (sp?) people out because of their race/gender/ethnicity is not to me. *shrug* I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No worries.

And I need to finish watching the baseball game (Not a big cleveland fan ), so, y'all have a good night...
post #94 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post

And I wouldn't send my daughter to a strange man's house either. Nor would I send her to a strange woman's, either. "Strange" is the key word in this situation for me, not "man" or "woman". I'm not going to live my life in fear and suspicion because of the actions of one person...it would be like if I'd been mugged by an African-American (or Hispanic, or Asian) and then decided I'd never be alone with a person of that race/ethnicity because of what had happened with a completely different person. Yes, I completely agree with checking out whoever will be at the place your child is playing, being cautious around new people, watching his/her interactions with your child, paying attention to whatever you gut is telling you, asking questions. THAT to me is common sense; singling (sp?) people out because of their race/gender/ethnicity is not to me. *shrug* I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No worries.

And I need to finish watching the baseball game (Not a big cleveland fan ), so, y'all have a good night...

Bolded mine....

And what if almost every time you were alone as a child with an African-American male (or Hispanic, or Asian) you were molested or sexually assalted? I think you may come away being prejudiced against against all African American males, rightfully...no, understandable....yes. In my reference and now I am recalling an a additional molestation by a fourth...FOURTH person. All four were white males, some relatives and some not. But all were white males, on the news its white males, from friends experiences it's white males....so I tend to be more cautious of white males. I'm sad that some without experiences with sexual abuse or trauma can discount the fear we live with every day that our own children would become victims themselves and will do ANYTHING to prevent it...ANYTHING!
post #95 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
What I find interesting is that it's perfectly ok to be sexist (well, most perps are male, so we should scrutinize them more comfortably, and that's just being cautious), but if I came in and said, "Well, I didn't know her husband was African-American, and I won't let my child over there without more closely scrutinizing him, since I know African-Americans are disproportionately more likely to commit homicide", I'd be flamed from here to there.

(I'd never say that IRL, because I'm not about to stereotype a whole group of people, whether gender, race, etc. I'm using it as an example).

Why is it ok to act that way toward MEN as a group, when it's completely unacceptable and wrong to act that way toward another group?
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
No, it's an example of stereotyping an entire group of people because of a prejudice. Of course, I want to know who is watching my child, and I want to know who they are. But to determine that an entire group of people is suspect because of their gender/race/orientation/etc. is discrimination. I can't believe something like this is not only accepted, but promoted here. Nobody's getting up in arms about who watches your child; it's about someone proudly proclaiming that they have prejudice and justifying it with "I'm protecting my child".

Isn't that what people said 60 years ago when the white parents wouldn't let their children play with the African-American children? They were protecting their children, too, you know.

And i don't need to ask around...i was molested by my uncle (well, my father's cousin...we called him uncle) as a child. But, guess what, the majority of men in my childhood (in fact, *all* of them except for him) DIDN'T molest me. Should I write off an entire gender because of the actions of one person?
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
I completely agree with this. Of course you need to know who your child is spending the night with/hanging out with, regardless of gender/race/orientation/ethnicity, etc. My discussion with thismama is about the fact that she has stated that she would absolutely, positively scrutinize a male more closely than a female because of the mere fact of his gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
First of all, thanks, but it wasn't my mother's fault (or my father's fault...why is blame being placed on the females for not "adequately" supervising?)...I was at my paternal grandmother's so I guess she was the one not adequately supervising...? (well, my great-uncle's house, technically...she lived with my great-uncle/great-aunt to help take care of my great-aunt (alzheimer's), and the cousin was the great-uncle's son (I know, you need a family tree to figure this out)). Point being, nowhere even near being my mother's fault.

And I wouldn't send my daughter to a strange man's house either. Nor would I send her to a strange woman's, either. "Strange" is the key word in this situation for me, not "man" or "woman". I'm not going to live my life in fear and suspicion because of the actions of one person...it would be like if I'd been mugged by an African-American (or Hispanic, or Asian) and then decided I'd never be alone with a person of that race/ethnicity because of what had happened with a completely different person. Yes, I completely agree with checking out whoever will be at the place your child is playing, being cautious around new people, watching his/her interactions with your child, paying attention to whatever you gut is telling you, asking questions. THAT to me is common sense; singling (sp?) people out because of their race/gender/ethnicity is not to me. *shrug* I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No worries.

And I need to finish watching the baseball game (Not a big cleveland fan ), so, y'all have a good night...
Thank you katheek77 for showing us the voice of reason. You said what I've been trying to put into words since page two of this thread. (Though you wrote it much more eloquently.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.
How sad that without knowing the details, you're quick to assume you know what happened in her life and blame it on her Mother not supervising her adequately. Unless you are with your child 24-7 and never away from them or asleep for a second, you're not supervising them adequately, if you want to put it like that. :

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
A lot of what happens in life occurs because of the situations that we put ourselves in.
Please tell me that's not blaming the victim! And if she didn't wear such a tight shirt or short skirt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.
You know what bothers me about all this? When people keep saying "I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.". It just strikes me that if you're that careful about one type of person (a man), you're not that worried about another type of person (women), only that the other type of person (woman) might put your child in contact with the undesirable type (men). You're so concerned about what a MAN might do to your child, what if, God forbid, someday a WOMAN does something to your child and you're completely oblivious because you're expecting her Husband/boyfriend/brother to be the one to do it?
post #96 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Why the dad? Why is it okay for a mom to dictate her daughter's appearance, and force her into a mold she's not comfortable with? I get just as much sense of ownership out of that as I do with a dad. I find parents of either gender who have that much emotional investment in their children's appearances a little "off", to be honest. (It still bothers me less than a woman who will circ with the stated reason that she wants her son to have "a pretty penis", though.)
True! It's just as controlling when a mother does it, and just as harmful. I'd just heard that most sexual abusers feel they "own" the women in their family, so it seemed like it might be -- well, not necessarily a "red flag" for sexual abuse in a man, I'm sure there are lots of men with this "ownership" attitude who are not pedophiles --

But it would still be a concern for me, if I knew one of dd's friends had a dad who acted like his dd was his personal property (I'm not talking about overprotective dads, but dads controlling appearance and the like -- and to clarify, not dads who don't want their daughters wearing too revealing clothes, but dads who want their dd's to "look" exactly how they want them to look).

Yeah, it's sick if a mother's like that, too. As I've said, I have to know people pretty well before my child plays in their home. And I understand what Storm Bride said about abuse usually happening with people the parents know and trust.

One thing that might help is that we don't leave our children with anyone besides dh or me until they express a readiness to be away from us. Our oldest was close to 4, and very verbal, when she reached this stage. And she had a good understanding of what body parts were private.

And at 4, she still wasn't separated for more than a short playdayes. She didn't feel comfortable staying overnight at a friend's until just recently (at 7) -- and of course she'll always know we're available to come pick her up from anywhere anytime she wants to come home.

Our youngest, at 2 1/2, still hasn't expressed a readiness for separation, so we haven't left her with anyone yet.

Quote:
That doesn't "kind of" weird me out. That's downright creepy.
True.
post #97 of 120
The politically correct thing to say might be that men and women are equally suspect, but that is not statistically correct. I deal with reality. Men are more likely than women to sexually abuse a child. That is a simple fact.
post #98 of 120
I can understand if she wanted to get to know you better and I can also understand being more hesitant with a male caregiver than female because of the statistics (sad but reality), but the latter isn't even relevant anyway in this case. However, if she really cared that much about these things she would have found out more about you before letting her child over the first time and it doesn't sound like she is willing to get to know parents of her child's friends for whatever reason which is silly IMO if she is this concerned about her child's safety.

I think her main beef may have been a divorcee that has a new partner and maybe there is something else going on to that she is trying to cover with the rest of it.
post #99 of 120
My comment wasn't about the situation in the OP though. I think this is about some baggage the other mom has rather than the fact that there is a man in the house.

If I'm comfortable with the people, my kid can be there, but it takes more for me to reach that level of comfort with a man than a woman.
post #100 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do.
It may be profiling. But, the priority is the child, not the man.
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