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letting circ views overwhelm your view of people/groups - Page 2

post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai View Post
Judging cultures that circumcise their daughters is always ok, but judging cultures that circumcise their boys isn't. *sigh*......
No, Papai, it's NEVER OK to judge a person based on your assumption that they do what their culture traditionally does. Or can I condemn you for being rabidly pro-circ and cutting baby boys so their penis looks erect 100% of the time, simply because you're American?
post #22 of 47
This is such a stressful topic. : I try to give people in general the benefit of the doubt. I was talking to this woman recently whose husband is intact and they decided to circumcise because the dad had lots of locker room troubles when he was younger. I was so hoping she didn't circumcise because I like her. She seems informed but talked about the whole "up to the parents" excuse that I just don't understand. It's hard not to expect it out of everyone around me because I don't know anyone whose little boy isn't circed. I don't know, I feel like I had a point I was going to make but I am pooped. I am going to hug my kids and put them to bed and think about it all.
When my husband told my MIL we weren't going to circ she went off and started arguing with my husband. When he obviously wouldn't budge she then followed me into the house and in my bedroom and started yelling at me as if she was going to convince me to circ that way. : Ridiculous.
post #23 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
No, Papai, it's NEVER OK to judge a person based on your assumption that they do what their culture traditionally does. Or can I condemn you for being rabidly pro-circ and cutting baby boys so their penis looks erect 100% of the time, simply because you're American?
:
post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
No, Papai, it's NEVER OK to judge a person based on your assumption that they do what their culture traditionally does. Or can I condemn you for being rabidly pro-circ and cutting baby boys so their penis looks erect 100% of the time, simply because you're American?
Tell that to all the people who call female circ grotesque and barbaric but claim male circ is a perfectly valid parental choice.

It's not me who makes that distinction.

I was just pointing out that the majority of people have no problem condeming cultures, like Egypt, that circ their girls.
post #25 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai View Post
Tell that all the people who call female circ grotesque and barbaric but claim male circ is a perfectly valid parental choice.

It's not me who makes that distinction.

I was just pointing out that the majority of people have no problem condeming cultures, like Egypt, that circ their girls.
I think we all agree here.

Plenty of people will harshly judge FGM cultures and not MGM cultures.

ALL cultures that mutilate should be judged harshly, but individuals from those cultures should not be judged based on that aspect of their culture alone. People are not stereotypes. Just because a person is American (a culture that practices MGM) does not mean that they themselves practice it.
post #26 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by christifav View Post
I think we all agree here.

Plenty of people will harshly judge FGM cultures and not MGM cultures.

ALL cultures that mutilate should be judged harshly, but individuals from those cultures should not be judged based on that aspect of their culture alone. People are not stereotypes. Just because a person is American (a culture that practices MGM) does not mean that they themselves practice it.
I know that.

Doesn't stop me thinking that they do though. I just cannot look at an American any more without feeling pity for the men and contempt for the women, thinking that either they are circ'd or are going to do it to a cute, innocent little baby. I know that's unfair, but that's how I feel. I hear an American accent and it makes me feel slightly sick, I guess that's a learned response from the debate boards, sorry, I can't help it. :
post #27 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I know that.

Doesn't stop me thinking that they do though. I just cannot look at an American any more without feeling pity for the men and contempt for the women, thinking that either they are circ'd or are going to do it to a cute, innocent little baby. I know that's unfair, but that's how I feel. I hear an American accent and it makes me feel slightly sick, I guess that's a learned response from the debate boards, sorry, I can't help it. :
:
post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I know that.

Doesn't stop me thinking that they do though. I just cannot look at an American any more without feeling pity for the men and contempt for the women, thinking that either they are circ'd or are going to do it to a cute, innocent little baby. I know that's unfair, but that's how I feel. I hear an American accent and it makes me feel slightly sick, I guess that's a learned response from the debate boards, sorry, I can't help it. :
I feel that way too, and I'm American.
post #29 of 47

Split post TCAC/ letting circ overwhelm your views....

The thought has crossed my mind as well, that our culture as a whole accepts circumcision and has their "blinders" on so to speak, though I don't judge individuals becuase it is likely that are simply uninformed. There was a time I didn't see what the big deal with circumcision was either. I finally came to a place in my life where I was able to "see" the truth of it. Everyone gets to that "place" at different times in their life. I try to practice patience and compassion. Still, as with circumcision, I try to practice patience and compassion even on this issue. Most folks, even when making horrific decisions are not inherently evil or cruel. They are uninformed, under pressure, scared, etc, but typically not willfully cruel. I just pray and try to remain compassionate.
post #30 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic74 View Post
The thought has crossed my mind as well, that our culture as a whole accepts circumcision and has their "blinders" on so to speak, though I don't judge individuals becuase it is likely that are simply uninformed. There was a time I didn't see what the big deal with circumcision was either. I finally came to a place in my life where I was able to "see" the truth of it. Everyone gets to that "place" at different times in their life. I try to practice patience and compassion. I have the same issues with abortion in this country. It is amazing to me that our government allows us to legally kill our own children while they are still in the womb. If you think circumcision hurts, can you imagine how it feels to be aborted! Still, as with circumcision, I try to practice patience and compassion even on this issue. Most folks, even when making horrific decisions are not inherently evil or cruel. They are uninformed, under pressure, scared, etc, but typically not willfully cruel. I just pray and try to remain compassionate.
*applauds*
post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I know that.

Doesn't stop me thinking that they do though. I just cannot look at an American any more without feeling pity for the men and contempt for the women, thinking that either they are circ'd or are going to do it to a cute, innocent little baby. I know that's unfair, but that's how I feel. I hear an American accent and it makes me feel slightly sick, I guess that's a learned response from the debate boards, sorry, I can't help it. :
While I understand the feeling, that's what racism is.

I'm Jewish, and will NEVER circ a son of mine, and I constantly have to cringe at the repeated "Jews do ____" or "well you're different from the rest of them" because NO, I'm really not. There are LOTS of Jews who don't circ. I think many people would rather get upset about a culture than actually take the time to understand it and work with the culture.

No, I don't condemn the cultures that practice FGM. I think it's sad, it sickens me, but it's education they need, not judgement. It helps nobody except the judger feel better about themselves.
post #32 of 47
I struggle with this as well, not because I stereotype cultures, but because I'm sort of scared of people who don't think critically and can't understand the difference between culture and nature. I don't feel safe being close compadres with people like this, because I often wind up with pressure to do things I know I shouldn't do and I really don't like that feeling. The willingness to circ has become a symbol for me of people who trust an institution over their own intuition.

And the older generations who really had no choice but to circ, well, I feel compassion for them, but I also fear their willingness en masse to just accept what the medical institution fed them. I have trouble trusting their advice on parenting and many other things. And I can't help but thinking, SOME parents finally got the nerve to go against the establishment; I just wish it could have been my IL's.:
post #33 of 47
Quote:
Judging cultures that circumcise their daughters is always ok, but judging cultures that circumcise their boys isn't. *sigh*......
Word. But I will judge anyway. It is wrong wrong wrong to cut off babies' genitals, period.
post #34 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I know that.

Doesn't stop me thinking that they do though. I just cannot look at an American any more without feeling pity for the men and contempt for the women, thinking that either they are circ'd or are going to do it to a cute, innocent little baby. I know that's unfair, but that's how I feel. I hear an American accent and it makes me feel slightly sick, I guess that's a learned response from the debate boards, sorry, I can't help it. :
Daisy, I feel the same way. I am an American with an American accent. And whenever I meet new families with boys, I feel faintly sick. Thinking about their sons that are likely mutilated.

When I meet a British or European family I feel a sense of relief...these boys are safe and whole.

The woman who lives down the street circ'd her son because her husband is circ'd and wanted his son to be mutilated, too. That's not how he said it, but that is what is meant and felt. His tender male ego can't handle the thought of his son having all of his sexual organ when he himself has been mutilated.

I judge people who circ their children. If they later regret it, I am able to be friends with them. Otherwise, there is always a distance, a sense of mistrust that I have for them.

Really...this is abuse. If you knew a family who slapped their children across the face "for their own good" or because "it was done to me as a child and I turned out fine", wouldn't you have some emotional distance from them, even if it wasn't quite legally considered abuse?
post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai View Post
Tell that to all the people who call female circ grotesque and barbaric but claim male circ is a perfectly valid parental choice.

It's not me who makes that distinction.

I was just pointing out that the majority of people have no problem condeming cultures, like Egypt, that circ their girls.
No, Papai, they condemn the act, they condemn the people who do it, but condemning every Egyptian you meet because "Egyptians practice FGM" is revolting and racist.

For example:
Quote:
I'm Jewish, and will NEVER circ a son of mine, and I constantly have to cringe at the repeated "Jews do ____" or "well you're different from the rest of them" because NO, I'm really not. There are LOTS of Jews who don't circ. I think many people would rather get upset about a culture than actually take the time to understand it and work with the culture.
Papai, you would miss out on the opportuntiy of knowing this interesting and nice person because you judged them as beign from a circ culture and therefore not a good person without giving them a chance to show you what sort of person they are.
post #36 of 47
I asked an egyptian from another board if she believes in circumcising dd's. she said "Oh LORD NO!!!" Whew!

I'm guilty for stereotyping cultures and hating them before knowing they actually circ'd or not. I've learned my self out of that kind of thinking by now.

Its interesting. I was once prejudice of stereotypical persona's thinking they circ'd. I have know clue if they did or not unless I flat out asked. I'm humbly admit my flaw here so please don't bash me on my pre-prejudice nature.
post #37 of 47

Coming to Papai's Defense Here.....

Sorry this is late. I've been super busy at work and haven't had much time for posting.
Did it ever occur to any of you that Papai was being sarcastic when he wrote what he did? The problem is, irony is hard to convey on message boards. It's so easy just to take everyone's posts on face value. Papai has been anti-circumcision and pro-intact for as long as he's been posting here; that fact, along with the "sigh" that he put in the last of his post, means that we're NOT to take what he just wrote literally. Unfortunately, about 4 or 5 of you did just that.
post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
No, Papai, they condemn the act, they condemn the people who do it, but condemning every Egyptian you meet because "Egyptians practice FGM" is revolting and racist.

For example:


Papai, you would miss out on the opportuntiy of knowing this interesting and nice person because you judged them as beign from a circ culture and therefore not a good person without giving them a chance to show you what sort of person they are.
I never made any mention that I personally judge groups based on whether they circ or not. I just pointed out a disparity that I saw.

I associate with people from cultures that circumcise everyday. I'm just saying, people are quick to say it's wrong to condemn cultures that circ boys, but no one says a peep when FGM cultures get slammed. It's hypocritical.
post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by njeb View Post
Sorry this is late. I've been super busy at work and haven't had much time for posting.
Did it ever occur to any of you that Papai was being sarcastic when he wrote what he did? The problem is, irony is hard to convey on message boards. It's so easy just to take everyone's posts on face value. Papai has been anti-circumcision and pro-intact for as long as he's been posting here; that fact, along with the "sigh" that he put in the last of his post, means that we're NOT to take what he just wrote literally. Unfortunately, about 4 or 5 of you did just that.
My post is being taken as a pro-circ post? :

LOL, it was sarcastic but it brought up the point I wanted to make, that FGM cultures get condemned regularly, but when it comes to MGM cultures, we're told they shouldn't be condemned and should be respected.
post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai View Post
I never made any mention that I personally judge groups based on whether they circ or not. I just pointed out a disparity that I saw.

I associate with people from cultures that circumcise everyday. I'm just saying, people are quick to say it's wrong to condemn cultures that circ boys, but no one says a peep when FGM cultures get slammed. It's hypocritical.
I agree that it's hypocritical. Not only is it hypocritical, it's racist, whether it be FGM or MGM we're talking about. It really saddens me that some people on this board can't see past the "I'm so disgusted! I can't believe they'd do that!" to open their eyes and see how racist their replies to this discussion are!

On a board like this, where we're of like minds on something so controversial yet so unifying, it saddens me that racism like this still abounds. We're supposed to be the people who see what's right and help others to achieve this, without regards to cultural boundaries and without judgement. Judging people based on generalizations alienates people like me or people like the Egyptian woman that fruitful_womb spoke to.

Maybe it makes me a b1+ch, but to be honest, after reading these posts, I no longer care if me being a Jew or me being an American disturbs you. It's honestly your own fear and unwillingness to open your eyes that's crippling your ability to relate with people who sometimes are just as enlightened and strong as you (if not more because they're bucking their culture's "tradition").

That really saddens me, and I hope everyone who feels this way gets over it, FAST. It's the only way you'll ever be able to help anyone who doesn't think the way you do.

:

ETA: Papai, I got the sarcasm. And you make a great point.
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