For those of you considering circumcision... - Page 2

[Papai]

Originally Posted by PAXIMPERIA

If you want to know the truth, I decided to start using moisturizer on the Glans of my penis. After several weeks I noticed that I could not wear underwear without intense discomfort with every step I took. In the shower, the newly sensitive glans hurt even when beads of water hit the tip. However, the orgasms were amazing, like nothing I had ever experienced. This is what made me realize, A. I could never continue what I was doing because it was incredibly painful on a day to day basis (having a sensitized glans exposed), B. that when the glans wasn't exposed, it is extraordinarily sensitive, and C. that the glans and inner foreskin, which are both incredibly sensitive, are not as sesitive as the primary sexual skin in the intact penis, the frenar band. The frenar band is almost always removed during circumcision. The moisturized glans made me realize that there was something intensely special that I was missing, and the lack of all of the other sensitive structures of the penis made me regret and despise my parents decision. Even today, I need to decide between comparatively boring ejaculations to extraordinary ones but constant pain from the abraision with the underwear, all because my mother made this stupid decision 20 years ago. This dilemma will effect me for the remainder of my life-- that is a really, really, really long time for someone who doesn't beleive in the after-life. It's perminant, intensely sexual (as i have found) and if it's intensely sexual it's also invariably intensely painful to walk every step of every day, because the foreskin is not protecting the glans. Keep in mind the glans is only sensitive if it is kept moist using vaseline or another method for several weeks, but it is amazing and intensely stimulating. This has made me wonder what else has been missing all my life due to this surgical "procedure". At least from what I've read, the frenar band is the most sensitive part of a mans penis. It is gone forever, stolen from me at birth, and a distinct pleasure of this life that I will never be able to experience. That is what really bothers me.

By the way, the frenar band is only one of many many nerve endings that all add together to create an enriching (but usually not pre-ejaculatory) sensory extraordinary experience. Most of the sensitive portions of the male penis are lost to circumcisions, there are numerous studies showing that.

Ahh. Ok.

I was going to say, if you never had any way of knowing the difference, why torture yourself, but I understand a bit more now.

[PAXIMPERIA]

Actually I have. The foreskin restoration can never restore the most sensitive fenar band, but it can protect the glans from abrasion, making the previous conversation moot. Actually I've ordered one of these devices, and I feel that in a way it gives me a way to reclaim what was taken from me, in addition to the intensely sexual and new sensastions from the moist glans. Still, that leaves one-third (and most likely the most importiant one third missing). It helps, but does not alleviate my problem entirely. Keep in mind that I was lucky and retained almost all of the very sensitive inner foreskin. Normally it is removed fully of partially. This is part of what makes me so convinced that circumcision is universally undesireable. Had I been completely circumcised, with the entire foreskin removed, virtually every sexually sensitive spot on my penis would have been removed. The inner foreskin, the frenullum, the frenar band, the m. corpsucles, the glans would dry up and become unresponsive. Keep in mind that circ was designed to reduce or eliminate mastrubatory pleasure and sexual urges. It still serves that function perfectly well today.

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by thismama

I think it's interesting, and disheartening, the viciousness that is unleashed upon mothers about this subject, while fathers get off basically scot free.

I find it disenheartening that the anger isn't at the medical establishement... and the person, the doctors that do this.... everyday.

In most cases (I have no idea about the posters mother of course) MOST of the mother are 'victims' who were told lies and mistruths to make them believe it is necessary to consent to harm. Most parents are coached to look at circumcision as something that causes some pain to prevent something 'worse'.

Someone has a siggie that says something like: circumcisoin is a violatoin of a child and a wound to the mother's heart... And I agree that in almost all cases circumcison is a wound to the mother because it causes her to neglect/deny her nurturing instincts. Some people will never heal from that wound and others will deny it. We don't know your mother well enough to know which or why, but YOU know your mother and though this makes things confusing and hard, it doesn't diminish the love you have felt from her.

I hope you can find out more about this, maybe your mom needs a little more time to process this. When did you confront her?

Your anger and pain is real and does not deserve to be diminished in ANY way... I'm just not sure that the fault lies soley on your mothers shoulders... and that is what I'm interpreting from your post.... I apologize if I've misunderstood.

Jessica

[PAXIMPERIA]

My mother is the medical establishment. She has performed circs before, most likely many of them, as has my father (who is also a doctor). The whole damn system is misinformed, the parents, the doctors, and more or less anyone else involved in the project. The male is very very worried/concerned/in denial about even the slight possibility that his manliness may be sub-par. Consequently he comes up with any and every excuse to justify, rationalize, and continue the practice because "it's perfectly normal". He needs to believe this, because anything otherwise would be absolutely devastating for your average man to accept. When I say devastating, I mean really devastating. Throw this in with the medically unnecessary but frequently touted medical "benefits" (ignoring entirely the medical disadvantages such as sexual insensitivity) of foreskin truncation, the fact that women circ their babies even 56% today, is not terribly suprising. However, it is terrible. If you discover what occurs during a circ, you may be very suprised. The very very very sensitive and raw glans is essentially ripped prematurely from the inner foreskin, years before it's appropriate seperation would occur naturally. Because the glans is dried up and insensitive because of the doctors own circ, he is likely to dismiss the babies pain in such a process (during circ). In fact, the silence after separating the glans from the inner foreskin is not calm placidness, but is in fact excruciating pain of such an enormous caliber that it causes the infant to cease breathing, or screaming, recessing into a deep state of trance to deal with the unbeleivable pain which is equivalent to stabbing your genitals with a sharp knife continuously.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

OP. I hope that you can channel your anger at your mother into the medical establishment as well and find ways to let them know how you feel. Your mother could only do what they told her to. Back when you were born there was no internet for most people. My mother had my brothers circed and it pains her greatly now that she knows what they lost. Maybe your mother feels the same way but dosnt know how to tell you.

[Quirky]

No one here will disagree with you for one second about the harms of circ. That's what we're here for -- to try to save babies. Believe me, a more educated bunch of men and women it would be hard to find!!!!!

I can understand that you're pissed beyond words at your mom (and I hope your dad, because honestly he has no better excuse than she does). But even if they are the medical establishment -- especially because they're the medical establishment -- you have to realize, their training was all about the dangers of the foreskin. It has only been in the last several years that the research has been done on the functions of the foreskin, its sensitivity, etc. Yeah, that should all be common sense -- but look at the incredible lack of knowledge of the female body that was perpetuated for many years, too. The whole Freudian BS about clitoral vs. vaginal orgasms, etc. and no one actually bothered to study the structure and function of the foreskin. The point is -- if all your training and education has taught you one thing, it's incredibly difficult if not impossible to question it.

Look at the whole ulcer thing. How now we know that ulcers are caused by bacterial infections, but it was "known" beyond a shadow of a doubt by the medical establishment for YEARS that it was spicy foods etc. that caused ulcers.

Or look at poor Ignatius Semmelweiz, who came up with the wacky theory that doctors shouldn't go from the dissecting rooms to the delivery ward without washing their hands, and literally ended his life in an insane asylum because he was laughed/shamed out of respectable medical circles.

The point is -- I don't think we should diminish for a second the responsibility that the medical profession has for a multitude of sins, from circumcision to the lamentable state of affairs that US childbirth is in today to god knows what we'll discover tomorrow is completely wrong, especially given that NOW the information to do things differently is widely available.

But you still have to recognize that your parents did what they thought was the right thing to do based on their education and training. It was wrong, but they didn't know it at the time. I am positive that they did not intend to hurt you. I only hope you can have a conversation with them now to help them see how much more we know, and how traumatized and violated you feel, without demonizing them for not knowing better than the rest of the medical establishment.

[PAXIMPERIA]

Yeah.. It still sucks, but yeah.. I know it's not their fault and I think I'm almost done venting after the last few days. This is still something that I will never recover from-- but eventually I will learn to live with it.

[jessjgh1]

Paximperia,

Edited to add: the previous 2 posts were posted when I was writing this response... I'm a slow writer, so I think quirky made the point about drs training that I was trying to make

You are preaching to the choir here... this is the Case Against Circumcision, a pro-intact forum and most of us are well informed. I'm sorry your parents should know better. I'm sure they were trained that it was necessary, even if their instincts and logic should have shown them the truth. It is hard to find doctors that didn't get that type of info. Very hard.

Further exploration on the MDC forums will show you parallel deceptions-- women abused in their pregnancy and births-denied the truth and forced or compelled to accept interventions-- indeed many women have even physically been cut unnecessarily by episiotomy. And our babies are the victims of many other harmful practices that are unnecesary. Circumcisoin is by far the biggest atrocity (imo) but the whole birth culture in our society is extremely unsupportive of natural normal birth. It is easy for me \who doesn't know the people we are talking about or the exact situation to guess that yoru family just went along with the norms of the time, w/o thinking about it and w/o anyone stepping in to telll or get them to think about it. And to imagine a birth that left things to be desired and further trampled on the parenting instincts.... I certainly don't know, but I only try to make logical assumptions, and I'll admit I coudl be wrong. Did your mother have a wonderful amazing fully supported beautiful birth-- or did she also go through the system and was one who was left vulnerable???

My pedi 'bullied' me into giving my 1 day old son a hep b shot, even though I knew a little about it being unnecessary. I didn't have the fight left in me to stand up to my pedi-- even though I could have about circ... putting all my pregnanc energy into the circ battle left me under-resourced in supporting myself in other avenues-- so I lost my wish for a natural birth, had trouble breastfeeding, consented to unnecessary potentially harmful things such as hep b-- all because the SYSTEM is stacked against normal natural births. Had I had an amazing birth experience like I did with my daughter, I have a VERY strong suspicion I would have been able to stand up to my pedi and said, no thanks... etc. etc.

I have a sense that some of our posters (or lurkers) may first work through the issue personally before being able to move forward. But I do think that looking at the mother/birth expereince/ and circumcisoin practices are all important pieces of the puzzle. The sensations you have are certainly very different from most men, as well. I know my dh does not have the same sensations or frustrations, even though he is at a loss too. Your mother certainly would not expect this. I don't really know where I'm going with this....

We all focus on different aspects of the problem as there are many ways the lies and diseption reaches out to harm... just as there are many ways the truth also manifests. On this forum we area all reaching out and working for postive changes.
Many of us start advocating for a gentle pregancy and birth for our future generations, intactness being a huge part of that- not only for the baby but becaus it honours our parenting instincts too.

Jessica

[tlh]

since your parents are your parents and doctors they only want what is best for you and they know more than anyone what it takes to rebuild a foreskin.you should definitely talk to them about this and they will probably find a doctor that can do the restoration and pay for it.

[tallulahma]

I think the OP was intense. But I understand your anger. I understand it in a very very very far removed way.

I was given an episiotomy without consent after written and verbal refusal of said episiotomy.

That resident thought he was helping me. He made a mistake, he forgot I had said no. He is human.

The rage I feel towards him is irrational at times. The shooting pains that would wake me out of a dead sleep for a year afterwards made me want to find him and scream at him. I wanted to know why he felt like he could destroy my body, why he felt so powerful, why he went against all procedures. I know the answers to these questions. I am a nurse. I have seen situations get hectic, I have seen fellow professionals forget, make mistakes. I know why.

Truth is, I want him to look at me and apologize.

Will he? never. Because he would say all the reasons he did it. He would defend himself.

I may be off base, but if my mother had chosen to remove my clitoral hood because of medical advice and societla norms, and 27 years later I confronted her with the pain it has caused me..... I would want her to say, "i am so sorry I chose this for you, I was wrong".

Deep down we all know why things were done to us. But there is nothing more soothing than to have someone recognize our feelings.

I had a therapist say to me, "you were betrayed by someone in a position of power that you trusted. You are allowed to mourn that loss and cry for your pain"

it was like nothing Ive experienced. She validated that hurt in me, without once saying, "well he was helping" or "he thought he did whats best".

ya know?

I can tell you, the first time that I showered after giving birth and felt the huge episiotomy scar- I vomited, I felt mutilated, destroyed, like my womanhood had been turned into frakenstein.

Sometimes the shocking immediate realization of what has been done to us makes us go a little agro. Healing takes time.

OP, I hope you find your peace.

[youngnaturalist]

Hello, this is my first post here. I also am 21 and I have felt the exact same way that you do. Restoring helps some, but you never can have your original body part back. I have to say "thank you" for posting because I thought that I was the only one my age that felt this way, but I see that Im not. Feel free to PM if you want. I was wondering if there is a place for teens and young adults to vent and talk and support eachother about this. I personally know a few people from their teens to their twenties that said they think circumcision is stupid, but thats about as far as they go. I just have never had the guts to talk about it, because it has caused me so much pain, both mental and psychological. The word "circumcision" itself causes me to have a severe panic attack when I hear it said out loud. It is now up to us to stop this horrible mutilation and the more people our age that are informed the better. It has already helped me just to start talking about to someone for the first time even though its online. lol.

[Devaskyla]

I was wondering if there is a place for teens and young adults to vent and talk and support eachother about this.

I found these, maybe they'll be helpful for you?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/I_Hate_Circumcision/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/against_circumcision/

[tlh]

i am older than you guys(33) i have always hated being circumcised but have never found any support groups.it would be nice to have one that included males and females because this can happen to girls too.also including a therapist might be a good idea.if you find one or create one let me know.in the meantime you should

support the MGM bill

http://www.mgmbill.org/

sign The Ashley Montagu Resolution and Petition

http://montagunocircpetition.org/

and post your stories at blOUCH

http://www.genitalintegrity.net/blouch/

[AstridS]

: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that your mother felt she had the right to do that to you! It's your body and it should have been your choice. You were robbed, of not only a penis that works the way it's ment to, but of the right to bodily integrity. Im' so sorry for you and every other circumcised man and woman out there... I don't know what else to write...
I would never ever circumcise a son or daughter, but if I ever make a parenting mistake that grave (which I doubt that I will), I hope that I will be humble enough to acknowledge it and apologise. And that my children will find it in their hearts to at least try to forgive me.

[RiverSky]

This thread made me cry. I'm so sorry for you, Pax. I'm sorry for your parents because they had been brainwashed, but I'm devastated for you. And it makes me feel devastated for my husband, too. I fear that he will figure out how much he has lost and go through the same feelngs that you have. I'm so glad that I grew up in a culture that felt intact was normal and that I didn't even consider circumcision for my children and I advocated for them. I was so lucky.

Best wishes for getting through your grieving process and having a helpful restoration. I hope your letters to your mother will make her rethink everything that she has done.

[paquerette]

I'm so sorry. I know it must be a very painful place that you're in right now, and it's hard to be rational when something like this happens, especially right when you've been awakened to it. Have you connected with the folks at NORM yet? Perhaps there are members near you and regular meetings. I imagine attending their meetings would be very, very helpful in working through your feelings to find a place of peace about this.

[Devaskyla]

What did you hope to get from your mother when you sent her these emails?

I suspect what he hoped was that his mother would see how much pain he is in and that she would apologize to him. It doesn't sound like that's happened though.

I'm so sorry Pax, for you and all the men like you. I hope you can get past the rage at some point, because it's men like you who are likely to have the most impact in stopping this atrocity.

[ktbug]

I lost the circ debate with my husband and was coerced into signing the release (I was on narcotics). Not a day goes by that I don't regret it. Getting a letter like the one you wrote your mom is my worst fear, and if I got one like that I'd more than likely kill myself. Just so you know.

[PAXIMPERIA]

I probably shouldn't have told her for her own sake, but I couldn't hold that intense frustration in for the rest of my life. I feel much better and I think I am starting to accept my fate. However, this is very hard to do [for me in particular]. I'm gay and my boyfriend isn't circumcised, which is what started me thinking about the whole issue. I would imagine that the reason that 50% of the men on anti-circ boards seem to be gay, is because they see a wide range of them. Most men probably think everyone's penis looks like theirs, and will likely die without ever having realized what was missing. This is a good thing I suppose, except that it perpetuates the practice. This maybe difficult for mother's who have had their children circumcised, but you need to somehow let your children know that they should not circumcise their children. Hopefully you can find some way of doing this without leading them down the same path that I have been going through. If you don't, they may fall into the same trap that my dad fell into with me. Someone needs to break the cycle.

In case your wondering, every circumcised penis looks different, and with varying degrees of problems/deformities (scars, hair on the penis because of shaft skin loss, etc). What set me off was that all of the things I have always disliked about my penis are because of the circumcision. I didn't realize it then obviously. I just accepted it. After becoming intimately familiar with what an intact person looks like, and how the whole thing in general, works, I've realized why I had these dissatisfactions. It's like my eyes were opened. "So that's how it's supposed to work!" Then I realized that was not how mine works, and led through the sequence of events above.

P.S. My mom did send me a very short but sincere apology, and let me know that when I'm ready that we can have a talk about it [in person]. I don't know when that will be...

[Quirky]

I'm glad your mom was able to validate your feelings. I hope you'll be able to have a good conversation with her about it at some point.

And I do hope you'll look into manual restoration....no, you can't get everything back but it's a way to take control of your body and help heal some of the damage that was done to you.