Another newborn will face an unatural welcome to the world.

[fruitful womb]

A dear friend is due to deliver in December with a second boy. Ds1 is circumcised. Before she had ds1 I gave her the information, regarding religion and medical circ (how its NOT necessary and HARMS). She still did it. :

Her dh is a Lawyer, and she is an art teacher.

Why would an art teacher, knowing the beauty of the intact body (at least intact is what most naked art is right?) alter the creation of her perfect son?

Would the Medical profession purposely try coercing a Lawyer to circ his infant ds b/c they're fearful of Lawyers who believes in genital integrity? If the Lawyer doesn't believe in it then they don't have to worry about a class action lawsuit. Any kind of circ-suit for that matter!

This time around I politely asked to send her the "ANATOMY AND PHYSIOLOGY
OF THE INTACT PENIS" from D.O.C.. Out of respect, I asked. I thought she'd say yes. She said no. Door is SHUT end of story.

I'm still holding onto hope for her ds2. One wrong, minor detail and the pro-intact movement BACK FIRES!!! I'm perpetually kicking myself for it too. Sometimes I feel like giving up. : I think, what ever I'm doing (Fighting HARD for Genital Integrity!) I must be doing it wrong. They still end up circing.:

[ulla]

At this point, you let it go. Your friend has made herself very clear. While her email was very polite, she is unmistakably telling you to knock it off and mind your own business. If you bring up the subject again she might cut you off.

FYI, it is against the UA to quote emails from other people. You might want to edit your post to paraphrase.

[tammyswanson]

I can understand your frustration, some people are so ignorant! Why mutilate a baby, after all a baby is perfect when they are born, so why do they want to do that.... It's so irrational!

Just don't give up on other people, keep spreading the word! I was reading some peoples anger about being circ'd with their parents consenting and as adults the men were really angry that their parents didn't try to protect them...and this is back when they would just circ them, with no info at all.

They might get it back if their sons find out what they lost..and how their parents knew about it beforehand.

At least you tried, better than not saying anything at all.

[jserral]

Hmmm, perhaps you should try to get more responses and a dialog from the people, instead of just giving information. My guess is she has never given reasons why she is circing, and if she actually wrote them out she might realize she doesn't have the best of reasons or at least would get more of a discussion going.

Sadly, I am not sure how open she will be now, she might still be open to a question on what her reasons for deciding to circ are, but from the email, she doesn't want to discuss it.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by jserral

Hmmm, perhaps you should try to get more responses and a dialog from the people, instead of just giving information. My guess is she has never given reasons why she is circing, and if she actually wrote them out she might realize she doesn't have the best of reasons or at least would get more of a discussion going.

Sadly, I am not sure how open she will be now, she might still be open to a question on what her reasons for deciding to circ are, but from the email, she doesn't want to discuss it.

It started out that way. Thing is, all my Christian friends are NOT judgmental about my choice not to circumcise my boys. They're very respectful. I don't understand it. At least they don't tell me anything negative about my choice to leave the circing choice up to my boys. One friend who decided not to circ is asking me for help. I went to this Art friend (in my OP) to see if they didn't circ their ds1. I was recruiting support for this other friend who did not circ her ds2.

Follow me?

This other mom had questions about why it wasn't retracting. Of course I gave her all the answers but she came back at me saying, "It looks funny, I'm not sure if its normal. Will you please come over and tell me that everything is okay?" I'm going over there next week. The Art friend, knows the girl who did not circ her ds2. I thought we could all get together. So I asked.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by ulla

At this point, you let it go. Your friend has made herself very clear. While her email was very polite, she is unmistakably telling you to knock it off and mind your own business. If you bring up the subject again she might cut you off.

FYI, it is against the UA to quote emails from other people. You might want to edit your post to paraphrase.

And HOW do you know if its not already edited and paraphrased?

Your "FYI" seems a bit trollish. Oh well, I guess you were just "looking out for me".
When I said, "Door is SHUT end of story." I already knew this was a loss. But I still have hope that maybe she'll be "convicted" BEFORE this baby is born. Or the MGMbill is enacted before he arrives...

This is a case of a really "hard to sell parent"! - (quote from some other thread)

In such a case, one must be careful how they calculate their message. Its not a "One Size Fits All" message! Although I wish it were.

[eclipse]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

Your "FYI" seems a bit trollish. Oh well, I guess you were just "looking out for me".

I think she was just being nice. I've seen threads disapear into the ether for quoting emails.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by eclipse

I think she was just being nice. I've seen threads disapear into the ether for quoting emails.

Yeah, I just asked a MOD about this. Ulla was right.

[eepster]

I think the sad reality we face in this place (US) and this time is that we need to pick our battles. We are not going to win them all.

You opened a door you offered info you were nice about it. She has made it clear your aren't going to change her mind. Your choices are to keep pushing wit this one woman and get a reputation as the "crazy foreskin lady" or to move on to the next battle while you still have only minor wounds.

The more battles you fight the more you will win. So many mommies out there just need to hear "Ya know you don't have to circ. It's optional cosmetic surgery." And that's it they will decide not to.

The more moms we win over the more obvious the truth of what we say becomes. It's a numbers game.

Right now I think you should concentrate on that other mom who didn't circ, but is getting worried and poor advice regarding hygene. Her son is at serious risk of becoming one of those toddler that "just had to be circ'd b/c he had problems" and will tell everyone how horrible it was and how they wish they had it done at birth instead.

[phdmama06]

Originally Posted by eepster

Right now I think you should concentrate on that other mom who didn't circ, but is getting worried and poor advice regarding hygene. Her son is at serious risk of becoming one of those toddler that "just had to be circ'd b/c he had problems" and will tell everyone how horrible it was and how they wish they had it done at birth instead.

Frustrating as it is, it's probably time to close the door on the first mom (the art one) and leave her alone. It sounds like she has really made up her mind, and any trying to convince her otherwise might jeopardize your friendship. I would also focus on the friend with the intact boy, and on showing her the correct way to care for him so he doesn't "have" to be circed later.

[yokosmile]

At this point, you let it go. Your friend has made herself very clear. While her email was very polite, she is unmistakably telling you to knock it off and mind your own business. If you bring up the subject again she might cut you off.

Keep your veiled pro-circ BS out of Case Against Circumcision. I will never "mind my own business" if someone I know intends to allow her infant to be raped. YOU can stick YOUR head in the sand, but there are people out there who will fight to save baby boys from being tortured, even if it means, gasp, losing a friendship.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by yokosmile

Keep your veiled pro-circ BS out of Case Against Circumcision. I will never "mind my own business" if someone I know intends to allow her infant to be raped. YOU can stick YOUR head in the sand, but there are people out there who will fight to save baby boys from being tortured, even if it means, gasp, losing a friendship.

I'm pretty sure she was just trying to be realistic not "pro-circ" and she was responding in large part to something that has been edited out of the original post.

Strange rambling anectdote that really does have a point ahead:
When I a teenager I spent lots of time protesting nuclear weapons. It was during the cold war and the US tested weapons on a regular basis out in Nevada. I went there to work with the groups protesting for aout a month. While I was out there I watched as various anti-nuke groups spent just as much energy fighting with each other as they had fighting agains the government and the DOE.

When I got home my mom said she'd seen the same thing happen during the civil rights movement.

We need to aknowledge that the more radical people in our cause bring us visabilty, but the calmer more subtle people in our cause help us reach the mainstream.


More than 50% of boys are still being circ'd here in the US. We need to see the forest for the trees.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Personally for me the friendship would end when she refused to see how wrong circ is. So I could care less if the art friend got mad and me and "cut me off."

I see it as finding out someone you thought would make a good friend but in reality they are not someone you want to be around.

I know someone will come on and say that it isnt realistic to end a friendship over this but to me it is the same as staying friends with someone you know who is sexually abusing their child to me that isnt EVER going to be acceptable.

[Quirky]

Personally, I think child abuse/violating children's rights to an intact body is everyone's business. Should I just shut my mouth and not say anything if a parent thinks that cutting off another body part for cosmetic reasons is their own business and no one else's? Or maybe I should turn a blind eye if I see a starving child, or a woman with a black eye? After all, what business is it of mine if a man beats a woman up or parents neglect their child?

Human rights abuses, domestic violence, child abuse -- it's not a private matter. It's a public, social issue and we shouldn't be shamed into "minding our own business." If people had "minded their own business" about domestic violence, it wouldn't be a crime for a man to hit or rape his wife behind closed doors. If people had "minded their own business," it wouldn't be a crime to beat children within an inch of their lives.

MYOB = BS. IMO.

[tammyswanson]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

This is a case of a really "hard to sell parent"! - (quote from some other thread)

Yeah, that was the thread I started....then Jacque took it to be 'modified' or edited because of religious discussion, then they never put it back up.

I think sometimes when people say they dont' want to discuss it end of story really means that they are afraid to really examine their beliefs/fears and actually look into what they are going to do to their son. I think some people like to just 'go with the flow'...like dead fish do. :P

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Personally, I think child abuse/violating children's rights to an intact body is everyone's business. Should I just shut my mouth and not say anything if a parent thinks that cutting off another body part for cosmetic reasons is their own business and no one else's? Or maybe I should turn a blind eye if I see a starving child, or a woman with a black eye? After all, what business is it of mine if a man beats a woman up or parents neglect their child?

Human rights abuses, domestic violence, child abuse -- it's not a private matter. It's a public, social issue and we shouldn't be shamed into "minding our own business." If people had "minded their own business" about domestic violence, it wouldn't be a crime for a man to hit or rape his wife behind closed doors. If people had "minded their own business," it wouldn't be a crime to beat children within an inch of their lives.

MYOB = BS. IMO.

If parents wanted to have their childs ears cut off for cosmetic or hygenic reasons they would be hard put to find a Dr willing to do it. If you saw a woman being beaten you could call the police. If you saw a child being starved you could call CPS.

If parents want to circ their son they will find Drs lined up around the block willing to do it. If you call a police officer there is a good chance he will be circ'd and/or the parent of circ'd child. If you call CPS there is a better chance that they would question your Choice to not circ than the parents who are doing it.

The problem is societal, and if we keep our focus too narrow we will miss the wider audience. The hard sell should be aimed at magazines, insurance companies, medicaid, Drs, medical schools and other institutions that support "parental rights" to circ.

This one is lost. We often do push harder with close friends and family, but this is b/c they aren't as likely to simply stop reading our emails or answering our calls so we may still have a chance to reach them. It is sad and we grieve for what this child will endure, but pushing at this point gets her nowhere. Letting it go allows her to keep her standing in the group so she can work on other mommies who become pregnant in the future. Letting it go also frees up her time to make sure that other little boy doesn't end up going through a toddler circ.

[Quirky]

I am not saying that the OP should continue to push her friend. Although, personally, I couldn't stay friends with someone who had the information about circumcision and chose to circ anyway.

I am saying, however, that ulla's post about "minding your own business" strikes me as the very attitude that protected domestic violence and child abuse from public scrutiny for so long. The welfare of other people's children is all of our concern, and we shouldn't hesitate to inform people of the abusiveness of circumcision. Circumcision is not a "parental decision" that deserves respect.

[jessjgh1]

then they never put it back up.

Give it a few more days and then email her or a mod. They are just volunteers so they might just be busy...

Jessica

[JennaW]

Originally Posted by Quirky

I am not saying that the OP should continue to push her friend. Although, personally, I couldn't stay friends with someone who had the information about circumcision and chose to circ anyway.

I am saying, however, that ulla's post about "minding your own business" strikes me as the very attitude that protected domestic violence and child abuse from public scrutiny for so long. The welfare of other people's children is all of our concern, and we shouldn't hesitate to inform people of the abusiveness of circumcision. Circumcision is not a "parental decision" that deserves respect.

This is a very good point, thank you.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Quirky

I am saying, however, that ulla's post about "minding your own business" strikes me as the very attitude that protected domestic violence and child abuse from public scrutiny for so long. The welfare of other people's children is all of our concern, and we shouldn't hesitate to inform people of the abusiveness of circumcision. Circumcision is not a "parental decision" that deserves respect.

I agree whole heartedly that one doesn't need to mind ones own business on this topic. However, the way I read Ullas post it doesn't say that.

Ulla is not saying that Fruitfulwomb "should mind her own business." She is saying that the artist friend said that to fruitfulwomb. It was Ulla's interpretation of an email that Fruitfulwomb had posted, but then removed b/c it was a UA violation to post someone elses email.