Another newborn will face an unatural welcome to the world. - Page 2

[athensmama]

Keep on fighting mama! Sorry for ds1, but ds2 still has a chance. This issue is too important you can't help but fighting, and I think that you should do all you can to help your friend. Like someone mentioned above, I think your friend needs to be engaged in a discussion that challenges her to examine her circ decisions (by listing her reasons). She needs to be called out on it. If you are truly friends, then she will eventually be able to understand (perhaps thank you) for challenging her. I don't think that I could remain friends with someone who willingly mutilates her precious boys - especially after hearing the facts. Once I put forth my best fight on their behalf, then I could at least know I had tried.

[fruitful womb]

Its frustrating.
This cold shoulder applies to the circ discussion only. She still wants to keep in touch.

Maybe she doesn't want to know any of it.?? It would make her accountable if she did.:

I believe her when she said she "looked over every thing I gave her".

Forcing this information down will only trigger a gag reflect. This is a very sensitive subject to some ppl. It needs time to digest.

I gave her info two yrs ago. I gave her the D.O.C book and "Circumcision and the Christian Parent" Information. With no real follow up. I may have planted a seed but I didn't pro actively nurture it. I was trying to do that with this pregnancy but she rebuked it.:

So for now, I'm truly going to pray hard that she is convicted! I can't afford for her to completely close this door on me.

I like your suggestion, "Ask her what her reasons are and work around those reasons." I've done this before, with a different friend. Very effective. And I did tell her, "You know, you don't have to circumcise ds2 b/c ds1 is circ'd."

What I wanted to do was send her the "MRSA infected circ wound" picture since MRSA is a crises in TX. I might do that some times before she has the baby.

I'm not entirely sure I want to cut her off if she circs. I definitely couldn't be as close to her again. It'll be painful and I'll loose ALL respect for her. But if our boys grew up together, her ds's would know the difference and hopefully her ds's will choose differently for their boys.

I feel like this is a one ticket deal. I have to choose wisely - when and how to use it! If I'm successful, she'll be open for discussion. :

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by Quirky

I am saying, however, that ulla's post about "minding your own business" strikes me as the very attitude that protected domestic violence and child abuse from public scrutiny for so long. The welfare of other people's children is all of our concern, and we shouldn't hesitate to inform people of the abusiveness of circumcision. Circumcision is not a "parental decision" that deserves respect.

:

Fruitful womb - I had a similar thing happen to me with a very, very good friend. I asked if I could send circumcision info when she was pregnant, and she told me 'no' - she already knew I was against it, and said she didn't want to discuss it with me.

Although she then proceeded to ask the opinions of all of her other friends - all the ones who she knew had cut sons. :

This experience did teach me a lesson - I never ask if I can send the information anymore. I just send it, then they can't refuse.

I did follow up/confront this friend, and she agreed that I could send the information. To be honest, I knew it was a lost cause - she wanted to cut her son for her own reasons, and she was never going to be convinced otherwise.

But I'm still glad I didn't just drop it and that I did send her the information. After she had (and cut) her little boy, she definitely felt guilty about it - I got it all in an e-mail after the fact.

I suspect that she wouldn't have felt guilty about it if it hadn't been for me. And I think she needed to feel guilty - it didn't save her son, sadly, but it wasn't a completely comfortable thing for her to do, because she knew that I absolutely did NOT think that this was just another 'parental choice', and that we both just made different choices.

And that is one way we can put an end to this atrocity - by making it uncomfortable/difficult/etc for parents to cut their sons. It is a good thing for parents to know that there are people who feel strongly that circumcision is a human rights abuse. People need to really start to think about what it means to cut someone else's genitals.

Good luck if you decide to follow up with your friend...

[serendipity22]

"mind your own business"

This thread got me thinking about "mind your own business".

This phrase is often said by people who are misbehaving or
being abusive to get people who have observed their bad
behaviour to get off their back.

[fruitful womb]

Which is why it continues.:

Back when the KKK were rallying, they had this very attitude "Mind Your Own Business!"

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by Mommiska

:

Fruitful womb - I had a similar thing happen to me with a very, very good friend. I asked if I could send circumcision info when she was pregnant, and she told me 'no' - she already knew I was against it, and said she didn't want to discuss it with me.

Although she then proceeded to ask the opinions of all of her other friends - all the ones who she knew had cut sons. :

This experience did teach me a lesson - I never ask if I can send the information anymore. I just send it, then they can't refuse.

I did follow up/confront this friend, and she agreed that I could send the information. To be honest, I knew it was a lost cause - she wanted to cut her son for her own reasons, and she was never going to be convinced otherwise.

But I'm still glad I didn't just drop it and that I did send her the information. After she had (and cut) her little boy, she definitely felt guilty about it - I got it all in an e-mail after the fact.

I suspect that she wouldn't have felt guilty about it if it hadn't been for me. And I think she needed to feel guilty - it didn't save her son, sadly, but it wasn't a completely comfortable thing for her to do, because she knew that I absolutely did NOT think that this was just another 'parental choice', and that we both just made different choices.

And that is one way we can put an end to this atrocity - by making it uncomfortable/difficult/etc for parents to cut their sons. It is a good thing for parents to know that there are people who feel strongly that circumcision is a human rights abuse. People need to really start to think about what it means to cut someone else's genitals.

Good luck if you decide to follow up with your friend...

Thank you for your support Mommiska.


So I should write back and say, "Your not convicted like I am because you have NO IDEA what that child is going to go through!" "Here, before you sign him up for that watch this *insert graphic circ video link here*. If you can't watch it then you have no business putting him through that. Its so Unnecessary! Why would you do that?"


My question, how do I open this door with out running her off? I couldn't care less about loosing her as a friend. I do worry about this little boy. I can't get her mad at me if there is an off chance to protect his genital integrity.

"I understand your not convicted. You don't know what I know so how could you be? But please be aware that MSRA is a crises in TX. A newborn's open circ wound is especially vulnerable, *New Your Times Article*,
*PubMed citation*, *Graphic picture of a MSRA circ'd infected wound*"

Any suggestions, votes? Could I call CPS and tell them that a mother is about to have her ds's genitals sexually mutilated? They'd say "MYOB"! wouldn't they? And probably take my kids away too. Why not, as screwed up as this culture is, they're capable of that BS! Its still a thought worth mentioning. I might be desperate enough to try, then I could say "I've tried everything".

[eepster]

I still think if you go after her directly it will just shut her mind completely. Maybe next time you all get together as a group at church bring up the MRSA article from the NYT and just mention the picture you saw of the baby who got it in his circ wound. (You know the pic I'm talking about right?) This way it's not directed specifically at her, the info is timely, and even if you don't reach her you may reach others.

[Mommiska]

Fruitful - it's really hard to say if her unborn child has a chance without knowing her (and it doesn't look great, since she's already circed and has refused information).

Since you know her best, you'll probably have the best sense of what (if anything) would get through to her.

When I talked to my friend, I let her know that I felt very strongly about circumcision, and that I was hurt that she was unwilling to let me share relevant information with her, and that I wanted to understand why she was refusing to read anything about circumcision.

She came back with some about already knowing where I stood, etc., etc., and she'd rather talk to other mothers who agreed with her about circumcision. She said that she'd feel uncomfortable talking to me about it.

So I pointed out that I'd offered to send information, and that we didn't have to talk about it, if she didn't want to, but that was a very important decision she was making for someone else, and there was a lot of relevant information out there that you wouldn't get from parents who had already cut their sons.

Anyway - she agreed that I could send the information. And then we both dropped it - there wasn't any point in going further with it.

And I knew she'd cut her son. But I will never regret sending her the information - and I would have regretted it for the rest of my life if I'd let it drop - becausing knowing me, I'd have tortured myself thinking that if I'd just sent the info, I might have been able to save this baby.

Plus, as I said before - I think that parents who cut in the full knowledge of the harm they are doing should be made to feel as guilty/uncomfortable as possible about that decision.

[candiland]

I just can't fathom this stuff. I mean, when I got pregnant at NINETEEN I spent nine months researching breastfeeding, midwifery, homebirth, circumcision......... it is just unreal to me that women TWICE that age don't give anything any thought.

[rmzbm]

PLEASE DON'T let it go. The babe is due in December? That means you still have time. If she gets mad, her problem, who cares? It takes some a while to come around. More than one person tried talking to me and I said I didn't want to hear it, among other things. Forget her, it's not about her, it's about her DS, do it for him. Never too late until he's cut. Good luck!

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by rmzbm

PLEASE DON'T let it go. The babe is due in December? That means you still have time. If she gets mad, her problem, who cares? It takes some a while to come around. More than one person tried talking to me and I said I didn't want to hear it, among other things. Forget her, it's not about her, it's about her DS, do it for him. Never too late until he's cut. Good luck!

I TOTALLY agree! It's NOT about her.

[ared1]

I don't get it either. My SIL knows both my boys are intact. She just had her son and circ'd him. I felt so defeated. I gave them information. I talked to them but they were totally shut down. :

[fruitful womb]

[fruitful womb]

Like with most mainstreemers she only listens to those with titles. Since I'm no doctor or lawyer or some pastor for that matter...
I have a strong feeling, before her first ds was born (while I was educating her) she heeded to the visiting pastors sermon who raved how "great circumcision is!":Puke I nearly hurled! It was a LIE!!! IF that were JIM JONES, I bet she would follow! Sometimes dead fish really annoy me!!! I left that church btw. This is not a discussion on religion just recalling an event!:

[Arduinna]

Not snarky, you should probably edit your post #34 since we aren't allowed to talk about moderator decisions and I'd like for the thread to stay open.

I'm shocked at the the just let it go comments for fear of losing her as a friend.

I agree if there is a chance to change her mind keep working at it, even if it's subtle. But I'd never just make nice for fear for losing her as a friend.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Not snarky, you should probably edit your post #34 since we aren't allowed to talk about moderator decisions and I'd like for the thread to stay open.

I'm shocked at the the just let it go comments for fear of losing her as a friend.

I agree if there is a chance to change her mind keep working at it, even if it's subtle. But I'd never just make nice for fear for losing her as a friend.

You mean post #33 right? Thanks for the heads up!

I agree, I was taken by the "let it go" comments as well.
Friends can come and go. A lost of a friend isn't a big deal to me. A lost of a foreskin, once its gone its gone.

The reason its critical that I don't run her off is so I can open this door for discussion again. I was really direct with her. I tell it like it is IRL anyways. Some ppl don't like that and I can't control myself. Its gets me in trouble to. My cousin (the doctor) almost didn't invite me to his wedding because he was afraid I would preach about the harms of circumcision. I have done that before, loudly and in front of the biggest crowd - my big fat family!!!

Oh and I've done this in Church Bible Studies too.

When you've been doing this for awhile (nearly 7yrs), your not as afraid anymore and you forget to use the honey.

This art friend of mine, didn't care much for the vinegar!