For those of you that circ'd, how did you learn it was wrong?

[JennaW]

Hello,

I am new around here, and still learning my way around the no circ stuff. I have a question for the parents who circ'd and now know it was wrong. How did you learn it was wrong? Did someone "enlighten" you or did you find out through your own research? I am asking because now that I know about circ, I am adamantly against it and disgusted by it. I have two GOOD friends that have boys who circ'd and these women will probably have more children in the future. How do you approach this subject without putting people on the defense? Also, for one of my friends, her baby was just born about one month ago. According to her husband, their baby did not cry at all during the circ and slept through the whole thing. So, I'm not sure if they will accept the idea that their son was in pain (even though he was probably in shock, it didn't seem that way to them, kwim?). Any advice?

Thank you,

Jenna

[jauncourt]

I knew I had done something horrible the second I got my DS1 back from the nurse. It was like he was a different baby. If I could go back and undo it I would have at that very moment.

He has all sorts of issues now that I think have a lot to do with that initial betrayal. You can see the change from the first day images to the later pictures- there is a change in his face. He was a very happy baby, but in comparison with his brother (uncirced and so happy that he's been called the "creepy happy baby"), he was very moody and sad.
:

It's absolutely the worst thing I have ever allowed to be done to another human being, and worse, i come from an uncirced family and I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER!!! I still say it was no excuse that I was tired, or alone, or missing DH (who was unable to be with me). I should have known better, but I let them take him a do that to him so he could look like everyone in DH's family.

DH said it was up to me - and I caved to family pressure anyway. Even though (the only good thing about this) the surgeon who performed it was very conservative, using anaesthesia and only taking the very end (leaving most of his foreskin, which readhered and then he manipulated himself to seperate naturally), I feel awful and I always will. My in-laws kept commenting that we should get it redone because it looked like they had not taken enough. All I could say was "No. if he wants to later, that's his decision."

So, really, I knew it was wrong immediately, but it was still too late.

Maura

[gridley13]

Welcome! Congrats on your decision not to circ! There is a sticky at the top of the page that might be really helpful to you. It is pages and pages of stories of moms who circ'd then later found out the truth and regretted it. That might be just what you are looking for!

[Super Pickle]

Jenna, my experience was simliar to Maura's. I knew immediately when they brought him back to me. He was, exactly like Maura said, a different baby. I had had no idea what circ was all about, so when I saw what they had done to him, and how he remained limp, pale, and unresponsive, and wouldn't wake up, and wouldn't look at me when he nursed.....It was the most devastating thing I've ever experienced in all my life and definitely the worst thing I've ever done.

If your one friend is maintaining that the circ was painless for her child, I have no idea how you would proceed.

I personally would not set out to convert people who have already circumcised. It could be interpreted as an attack on their past choices, which might make them defensive. If they didn't "get it" when they saw their own child brought back to them bloodied and broken, I'm not sure how anything you could say could open their eyes.

I think the best thing you could do is this: When you get pregnant, bring it up with respect to your own baby. Casually mention how you're so glad you won't be circumcising or something. And be prepared to respectfully address any "But..."'s that they might throw at you. "But it's cleaner!" You: Actually, the AAP says there's no difference in hygiene. "But he might need it done later!" You: Sure, there's like a 0.1% chance he might get it done later, but I loot at it as giving him a 99.9% chance of never needing it, vs. guaranteeing painful surgery as a newborn plus putting him at risk for further surgeries to address complications from the first. Etc. You get my drift. Sometimes, one person being bold enough to reject circ is all it takes to get peopel questioning it. Hmmmm, if she didn't do it, do I really need to?

[Telle Bear]

I choose to keep our son intact, but while I was pregnant two moms told me that when the nurses can to take their sons they cried...so for them it seemed to be right away....

[rmzbm]

Here actually. And at first I thought all the anti-circers were nuts and way too concerned with their DS's private parts. I was a slow convert. Sorry. :

[Mama25]

I was 18 when I got married and had only been with my dh. He was circ'd. I was really so uneducated, I had sort of thought they maybe came that way and the dr. just helped it look like that, no big deal, not surgery or cutting now pain. It was always presented by my ob and then the hospital as normal, right thing to do. When I first saw my son after it, I was in shock! I was like what happened??!! I thought maybe something went wrong because of the blood and bandages. Because of that my dh then changed all the diapers for the first 2 wks. I did then "get over it" because he then looked "normal". Then it was when I was invited to a Mothering group by some moms I met a LLL mtgs. I still hadn ot even realized there was a true choice about it. They just causally talked about circ in a low key way, never confronting me, I don't even know if they knew my ds was circ'd or not. It was this way of sort of hearing small things that led me to go and look up info on this and why people thought it was wrong. When I found out more I was so sad! I am glad that if they knew my ds was circ'd that they didn't bash me or say things directly at me like "bad mom" or "how could you".

[JennaW]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I have read the sticky at the top of the forumn, I guess I am just trying to learn if there is any point in trying to talk to friends about circ who have already circ'd and have told me they plan on having more children in the future. It seems like that could be rather unproductive. Also, I appreciate the advice about being "low key", I know some people are pretty, um "radical"?, on here but thats not my style. I am not saying I disagree with those people, I think everyone has their "role", thats just not mine. I am also not saying I support circ, because I don't. It is wrong and I have no problem saying so but I'm not the type to throw terms like "baby rape" in front of my good friends face. I think that will not help open the door but rather shut it rather quickly. Sorry for the ramble but I have seen some people go off on other threads and I want people to understand where I stand. Anyway, thanks for the advice. Keep it coming. I would really love to hear from anyone that had a friend approach them about circ during a second pregnancy when they had circ'd their first. How did you feel? How did you respond initially? What got through to you?

Thanks!

[TigerTail]

Even in a time when routine appendectomies & tonsillectomies were standard, as a second grader, I could reason out that the dry bones description in the dictionary- penises being cut? Religious reasons the only ones mentioned?- was sick & appalling. Drs Spock & Gesell didn't shed more medcal light on why it was such a bitchin' thing to do to little babies.

I wondered ('amethyst' that I was at the time ) if some people unwilling to think for themselves (as you can see, a longstanding pet peeve) would sacrifice their kid with a knife on a stone altar too, if some idjit in a robe told them they read it in a book. (It was bad enough having to waste my Saturdays at catechism!)

Cruel social & anthropological customs- we watch TV shows about scarification or eating what we consider 'odd' food, shudder at what the 'savages' do to each other, and go back to skinning our baby boys alive (with a nice catered brunch, unless we are the foolish goyim who believe there are medical reasons to do so. You know, worldwide, many people believe drinking fetal mice wine is sound medical practice, too. If it was more profitable, patentable, & left the pharm industry with an otherwise unmanufacturable & unobtainable 'miracle' ingredient, by God, there might be 'Fetal Mice Wine prevents AIDS!' campaigns right now).

In case it isn't obvious by now, I've known it was a ridiculous & amazingly stupid vestigial custom since I heard of it. Cutting other people's genitals! Jesus, more people need to think about this stuff before they've been brainwashed. Get the kids, y'all. The teenagers will turn the tide.

eta Whoops, sorry, misread the title before I'd had enough coffee to process.
You all are hardcore honest, to be willing to think about it after the fact. I appreciate your intactvism so much; you will reach people I couldn't touch.

[GoodMomma]

When my son was about 3 months old, I stumbled upon a circ debate board. I read through quite a bit of threads and were shocked that so many parents there were against circ'ing... I was so in the dark. So I asked it anyone there was for circ'ing and want on that my son is perfectly fine Of course I got jumped on, lol. I was a rabid pro-circ'er back then. I just never knew there was a choice, I thought it had to be done for the health of the child. I didn't want to hear the other side. I debated on the board for a few days and couldn't handle it anymore. So I left. Finally I looked into it when he was about 9 months old and have been against it ever since, DH too. So, debating really made me think and eventually opened my eyes.

[mommaduck]

MDC.

Seriously...I came and was surprised at all I was reading. So I started asking questions, debating and discussing both with the intent to learn and understand. There were many that were patient with me and willing to educate me and share links with me.

[kittywitty]

Right before ds went back to get it done. But it was too late and noone backed me up. Then that was reinforced when ds was diagnosed with meatal stenosis and underwent surgery, and by reading here on MDC.

[gridley13]

Originally Posted by JennaW

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I have read the sticky at the top of the forumn, I guess I am just trying to learn if there is any point in trying to talk to friends about circ who have already circ'd and have told me they plan on having more children in the future. It seems like that could be rather unproductive. Also, I appreciate the advice about being "low key", I know some people are pretty, um "radical"?, on here but thats not my style. I am not saying I disagree with those people, I think everyone has their "role", thats just not mine. I am also not saying I support circ, because I don't. It is wrong and I have no problem saying so but I'm not the type to throw terms like "baby rape" in front of my good friends face. I think that will not help open the door but rather shut it rather quickly. Sorry for the ramble but I have seen some people go off on other threads and I want people to understand where I stand. Anyway, thanks for the advice. Keep it coming. I would really love to hear from anyone that had a friend approach them about circ during a second pregnancy when they had circ'd their first. How did you feel? How did you respond initially? What got through to you?

Thanks!

Ah, ok.. I get exactly what you are asking. I have not always been successful unfortunately but I will think about people whose minds I have changed AFTER they did circ and let you know if I come up with anything helpful. I tend to try and stay away from radical scary terms.. regardless if that is how I feel.. because I do think it has a bigger chance of totally shutting people off.

[Mommiska]

Hi Jenna,

I do think that you can approach this topic with people who have already circed. It's easier if they are a very close friend.

One of my best friends has two circed sons. She and I were then both pregnant with sons together (her 3rd son, and my 1st...my older two children are girls).

My son is 4 months older than hers - when I called to tell her that my ds had been born, while we were talking, she asked if we'd had him circed (he was probably a week or two old at this point).

I'm American, but am married to a British guy, who is obviously intact. We live in Scotland, and circ just isn't done here...so I was kind of surprised by the question...it's actually the reason I started researching circ (even though I'd been at MDC for a couple of years at this point - I just hadn't bothered with the circ forum, as I had two girls and my dh was intact, so I didn't see how it related to me at all).

I was horrified by what I found.

So I called my friend back (they knew at this point they were having a boy). And told her that I'd been researching circumcision, and could I send her the information that I'd found. I just emphasised that it wasn't something that needed to be done for any reason, and there were a lot of good reasons to not do it. My friend already knew it was painful (she had two circed sons, remember).

She told me to send the information, but not to be surprised if they circed anyway, since their two older sons were circed.

I sent Fleiss' book 'What your Doctor May not tell you about Circumcision' and left it at that.

When her son was born 4 months later, and she called to tell me about it, almost the next thing she told me was that they'd left him intact. All they needed was one person to stand up and say 'Please don't do this'. And they immediately 'got it' that this was a personal decision that really should be left up to the owner of the penis.

So - I'd encourage giving information. In a non-threatening way, but you never know.

My brother and SIL are expecting at the moment - they have an older (15 years) circed son. I plan on sharing information with them as well (if they are having a boy - they should find out in another few weeks). But in a non-accusatory way. Just letting them know that here is information that just wasn't available 15 years ago, but now it is, so I wanted them to have it before making a permanent decision for someone else.

Good luck...I know it's more touchy when the person has already circed. With people who have already circed, the earlier it's mentioned (and the more time they have to process the information) the better, I would imagine.

[Romana]

I do not have a circ'd child, but dd probably would have been had she been a boy (unless I said no after the baby was born - strong possibility of that since having dd was what changed my mind).

What really made me feel differently was having a baby. I knew that I could not send my new baby for unnecessary surgery. Dh and I had at least agreed it was unnecessary, but may have benefits worth the risks. It seemed sort of on-the-fence. I was leaning anti and he was leaning pro. But after dd was born, my feelings completely changed. I realized that unnecessary suddenly meant "no way in am I sending my baby for unnecessary surgery." It took many months to get dh to agree not to circ future boys. I still think he's only partially convinced but knows I won't bend and also, I think deep down he agrees but he can't talk about it because he's cut and it's a wound/self-esteem issue he doesn't want to visit. This is the first and so far only major point on which dh and I have ever really disagreed or had difficulty discussing openly.

I'd had people yell at me for saying I would circ - that didn't help. I'd read gobs of information, but still felt it was a decision that could go either way. I resented all of the guilt being pushed on mothers who chose circ. None of those approaches would have worked for me.

The things that would have worked would be a friend giving me info and saying, "I didn't circ my son and it hasn't been a problem at all. I just wanted to give you some information and I hope you find it helpful. Feel free to ask me questions if you have any. No pressure." I would never, for a moment, have listened to someone who called me a potential baby rapist or anything else like that. It would have made me shift more towards circ (even though I was anti-circ) because I would have felt that anyone making such extreme, emotion-based appeals must not have any good, real arguments on their side. It was a tense and frustrating subject for me for awhile, because I felt very uncertain of which way to go. As I said, having a baby answered that question. I'm grateful my first was a girl; I hope if she had been a boy that I would have protected her from circ.

Those are just my thoughts as someone whose mind did change in time (though as I said I was more anti-leaning, but on the fence enough to think that we would do it if dh felt strongly about it). Now circ would be an "over my dead body" type of decision.

[CherylDec&Jul]

Here.

I never even posted in CAC- just lurked. Then had to convince dh. Once the decision was official I made my first post here at CAC.

[rambunctiouscurls]

Originally Posted by Romana9+2

I do not have a circ'd child, but dd probably would have been had she been a boy (unless I said no after the baby was born - strong possibility of that since having dd was what changed my mind).

What really made me feel differently was having a baby. I knew that I could not send my new baby for unnecessary surgery. Dh and I had at least agreed it was unnecessary, but may have benefits worth the risks. It seemed sort of on-the-fence. I was leaning anti and he was leaning pro. But after dd was born, my feelings completely changed. I realized that unnecessary suddenly meant "no way in am I sending my baby for unnecessary surgery." It took many months to get dh to agree not to circ future boys. I still think he's only partially convinced but knows I won't bend and also, I think deep down he agrees but he can't talk about it because he's cut and it's a wound/self-esteem issue he doesn't want to visit. This is the first and so far only major point on which dh and I have ever really disagreed or had difficulty discussing openly.

I'd had people yell at me for saying I would circ - that didn't help. I'd read gobs of information, but still felt it was a decision that could go either way. I resented all of the guilt being pushed on mothers who chose circ. None of those approaches would have worked for me.

The things that would have worked would be a friend giving me info and saying, "I didn't circ my son and it hasn't been a problem at all. I just wanted to give you some information and I hope you find it helpful. Feel free to ask me questions if you have any. No pressure." I would never, for a moment, have listened to someone who called me a potential baby rapist or anything else like that. It would have made me shift more towards circ (even though I was anti-circ) because I would have felt that anyone making such extreme, emotion-based appeals must not have any good, real arguments on their side. It was a tense and frustrating subject for me for awhile, because I felt very uncertain of which way to go. As I said, having a baby answered that question. I'm grateful my first was a girl; I hope if she had been a boy that I would have protected her from circ.

Those are just my thoughts as someone whose mind did change in time (though as I said I was more anti-leaning, but on the fence enough to think that we would do it if dh felt strongly about it). Now circ would be an "over my dead body" type of decision.

This is ME. My first is also a girl although we are considering her being an only child. Anyway, I couldn't and wouldn't even get her EARS pierced. her body, her choice. It all became clear once she was born.

[Houdini]

Originally Posted by JennaW

Hello,

I am new around here, and still learning my way around the no circ stuff. I have a question for the parents who circ'd and now know it was wrong. How did you learn it was wrong? Did someone "enlighten" you or did you find out through your own research?
Jenna

Yoshua on MDC

[fruitful womb]

When the nurse brought my son in the room. I knew the instant I saw his purple limp body trying to lift his head off the bed of the rolling crib. The nurse lifted him out of there and handed him to me. She took off his diaper and his penis was wounded. I'll never forget how bloody it was. It was the moment I'll regret to the day I die! Why in the BLAZEN HE DO THEY ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN??? I HATE HATE ABSOLUTELY HATE OUR U.S of A SYSTEM FOR THIS!!!

If I had known, it wouldn't have happened. The very reason my friend changed her mind when she was 3wks due to deliver a boy back in March was that she saw a bloody circ wound on her cousin's newborn baby boy. She went home that night and cried her eyes out. That very evening she convinced her dh their ds would NOT be circ'd! Up until that point she was adamant that they circ.

[kblackstone444]

I didn't want to- it felt wrong even before they did it- but I thought I "had" to, that everyone was, that it was cleaner, healthier, that Christians were supposed to do it. But I let them do it anyways. After seeing my baby when they were done, I knew I had made the wrong decision, but didn't realize just how wrong it was. I tried to forget about it. When my son was about 6 months old, someone said something that perked my interest in researching cirsumscision and I was horrified that I had done that to my baby. I'm still learning- it wasn't until I started lurking here that I learned about things like no retraction. They were just things that I didn't think I needed to know about, since my son was circumscised. If I only knew then what I knew now... :