Mothering › Forums › Health › The Case Against Circumcision › Comparing Circumcision to FGM
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Comparing Circumcision to FGM - Page 2  

post #21 of 40
The only difference I see is in what mainstream society considers to be cultural apporpriateness. FGM is demonized as horrid violence against women and girls but circumcision ( isn't that pretty how we give it this nice little medical name to normalzie it, instead of calling it MGM, which is what it really is?) is considered normal and in the US intact males are still considered gross or dirty by many people. I don't think that act agains men is any less horrific or violent, people just refuse to acknowledge that it is.
post #22 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamastePlatypus
I agree!

I wonder because I don't know but I assume the answer is no, are the men in these FGM areas are circed?: I assume not.
AFAIK, cultures that cut women often cut men as well. Not that that makes it OK.....
post #23 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommy2Amira View Post
Excellent point. But women who are victims of FGM are never likely to enjoy sex..whereas men can.

I just don't know why it seems hurtful to me to compare but then I contradict myself because mutilation is mutilation. kwim?

I realize this is just a personal issue because I often instinctively cringe when I hear the two being compared. Although, I fully realize the impact on the victim is the same.
The thing about mentioning circ in this country is that *most* people here think that female circumcision = infibrilation. The majority of female circumcisions are sunna circumcisions as they're sometimes called. The clitoral hood/occasionally labia are removed. Fewer than 5% of female circumcision is infibrilation.

Incidentally, there has been research in countries which circumcise females that has shown that the women there are as orgasmic as women in non-circumcising countries. What people don't know about is that the clitoris is also an internal structure. There are bulbs of the clitoris, which extend deep into the groin, surrounding the vaginal walls. One particular bulb is commonly referred to as the "g-spot." There are many women out there who do not require any clitoral stimulation and can orgasm from having these areas stimulated. Which is likely why a woman who was circumcised could still experience orgasm.

I'm an intact woman who can orgasm from g-spot stimulation alone. In fact I prefer that type of stimulation but I'd NEVER want to give up ANY of my parts! I view it as a human right to be able to keep all of your genitals. There are unique sensations as well that the clitoris gives that I would miss, and it does make for a "complete experience". Likewise, the foreskin in its natural state gives unique sensations that an intact man would miss. Everybody should be allowed full sexual function. The logic of "well, as long as they can still orgasm it's OK" that is lunacy.

Adult intact men/women would know what they're missing...which is why circumcision is generally always performed on infants or pre-pubescent children. Where it's difficult or impossible to object/know that there are differences.

If you went to an intact man and said..."why not give up your foreskin...you could still orgasm after all" they'd look at you like you were a lunatic. The whole idea is so insane after all...but you know, most likely the person asking the question was themselves circumcised as an infant and never knew that the foreskin had such value.

It's pretty clear from an ethical standpoint, genital modification to a minor should be considered a human rights violation. There's no amount of tissue that is OK to arbitrarily remove from a minor for cultural reasons.
post #24 of 40
I would like to add that circ in the prepuberty male makes an internal organ (the glans) an external organ.

Would would you need to remove from a female to remove an equivalent amount of flesh?

What would you have to remove from the female to remove the number of nerves that are in the foreskin?
post #25 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
IMO it's trivializing the abuse that happens to men by not considering as being as wrong and harmful as what happens to women.
AMEN!
post #26 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
IMO it's trivializing the abuse that happens to men by not considering as being as wrong and harmful as what happens to women.
Exactly! I went to see the Vagina Monologues earlier in the year and it was great that they mentioned FGM and how horrible it is, but at the same time I was left wondering how many of the people who were agreeing with the FGM info given in the play had cut their sons without thinking twice :

It's like girls' genitals are more valuable than boys' in this country. Doctors have refused to even perform a ritual pin prick on female genitals for religious reasons, yet they slice a HUGE chunk off male genitals without batting an eye. The FGM law isn't about severity when a pin prick is considered too extreme to do to a girl, yet a boy can have 1/3 to 1/2 his penile skin amputated and it's perfectly legal.

The foreskin is a very integral part of the penis. I still have a hard time imagining how a penis would work without one. I mean, what do you do with a circumcised penis for foreplay? There's nothing to "play" with... :

love and peace.
post #27 of 40
Mommiska covered it pretty well... I would just add that perhaps your finding FGM more "cringe-worthy" is because you are female, you have those parts, and when you read about or hear about the FGM procedure you kind of imagine it happening to you and you cringe. Whereas with MGM you can intellectually know it is wrong and painful, but you don't feel it the same way. Like when America's Funniest Home Videos has another of their lovely videos with some man taking a hit to the crotch... the men in the room cringe and grab their crotch protectively. Having never been kicked in the balls ourselves, we women know it must hurt but we don't react so viscerally.

Jen
post #28 of 40
Oh, I don't know Jen, a good whack to the ovary when some especially large penis bounces off our cervices feels much like a testicle thud as far as I can figure (deep gut ache, etc).

PS Trmpt- exactly. A normal penis moves, glides, works the way it is supposed to.

I wish more American women had the experience before birthing their own sons- it's incredibly obvious once demonstrated. And most American men wonder why they don't get 'enough' oral! (which of course there are several reasons for- lack of reciprocity, etc- but ironically, a major one is 'hygiene'. What, you have to wash a scrotum attached to one of the miracle-clean victims of genital reduction surgery TOO?)
post #29 of 40
Quote:
What, you have to wash a scrotum attached to one of the miracle-clean victims of genital reduction surgery TOO?)


Sorry- my mind is kinda in the gutter lately , but this really made me laugh out loud!
post #30 of 40
Thread Starter 
did a little googling and found this:

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html
post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommiska View Post
It sounds like your feelings regarding comparing MGM and FGM stem from the different attitudes your female friend and your dh have towards their respective circumcisions.

I think those attitudes are cultural. If your friend is now in a Western society (which it sounds like she is), then she is getting the message loud and clear that what was done to her was wrong, took away her sexuality, was a horrendous mutilation, etc.

In nations where FGM is performed and accepted - if you talk to victims of FGM, they will give you lots and lots of reasons why they are GLAD they are circumcised (cleaner, healthier, etc, etc). They are in a culture which accepts FGM, so they accept it.

That's what's going on for your husband, I would guess - he's in a culture which accepts MGM as 'normal'. So he accepts it as 'normal' - after all, most (if not all) of his friends are circumcised, and they all say they're OK as well.

Whereas your friend is surrounded by uncircumcised women - who feel sorry for her.

I'm pretty sure that a generation from now, when MGM is regarded in the States in the same way that FGM is regarded now, many of the little boys being circumcised right now in the States will feel the same way your friend feels - they'll look around, know that many men have retained all of their sexuality, while theirs was altered without their consent.

They'll have all the information about the sensitivity, etc that they've lost.

And they won't have the comfort of knowing/believing that everyone around them is in the same boat.

MGM and FGM are both genital cutting. And both are deplorable for exactly the same reasons.
Yeah, that. Although yes, anatomically, most FGM is a more severe mutilation and removes more sensitive parts. Infibulation is like removing the penis, and internalising the testicles so you can cut the scrotum off. And then cutting the whole thing open again for each baby.

In non-MGM cultures, MGM is viewed with abhorrence, distate and circed men with pity for their lost sexual experience, but FGM is still seen as worse, in my experience.
post #32 of 40
From that link there was this

At the end this kinda stood out as horribly unjust....
Quote:
SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS MGM

Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. It is legitimate for parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to the medical factors, when making this decision. Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with circumcision; therefore, if a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided. If circumcision is performed in the newborn period, it should only be done on infants who are stable and healthy.
Quote:
RECOMMENDATIONS FGM

The American Academy of Pediatrics:


Opposes all forms of female genital mutilation (FGM).


Recommends that its members actively seek to dissuade families from carrying out FGM.


Recommends that its members provide patients and their parents with compassionate education about the physical harms and psychological risks of FGM.


Recommends that its members decline to perform any medically unnecessary procedure that alters the genitalia of female infants, girls, and adolescents.

post #33 of 40
Quote:
It is legitimate for parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions,.... blah blah blah
Why is this ok for mgm but not ok for fgm? What hypocrisy.

The answer of course is to preserve the sacred status quo.

Quote:
Although yes, anatomically, most FGM is a more severe mutilation and removes more sensitive parts.
According to a previous post infibulation is less than 5% of female circumcision.

Its a moot point that the most common type (removal of the clitoral hood) is worse than male circumcision.

Keep in mind male circ removes the 5 most sensitive points and its a lot of flesh.
post #34 of 40

Stats on FGM

I think this is an important page for all anti-GM activists to be familiar with:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Quote:
What is female genital mutilation?

Female genital mutilation (FGM), often referred to as 'female circumcision', comprises all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons. There are different types of female genital mutilation known to be practised today. They include:

* Type I - excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris;
* Type II - excision of the clitoris with partial or total excision of the labia minora;
* Type III - excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening (infibulation);
* Type IV - pricking, piercing or incising of the clitoris and/or labia; stretching of the clitoris and/or labia; cauterization by burning of the clitoris and surrounding tissue;
* scraping of tissue surrounding the vaginal orifice (angurya cuts) or cutting of the vagina (gishiri cuts);
* introduction of corrosive substances or herbs into the vagina to cause bleeding or for the purpose of tightening or narrowing it; and any other procedure that falls under the definition given above.

The most common type of female genital mutilation is excision of the clitoris and the labia minora, accounting for up to 80% of all cases; the most extreme form is infibulation, which constitutes about 15% of all procedures.
80% of the world's FGM victims have been subject to a procedure most analogous to male circumcision. So the vast majority are not infibulated -- although even Type I is damaging enough.
post #35 of 40
Actually Type I is most analagous to male circ. Type II, the excision of the clitoris, is a bit worse.
post #36 of 40
look at it from this perspective.

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.php
post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommiska View Post
It sounds like your feelings regarding comparing MGM and FGM stem from the different attitudes your female friend and your dh have towards their respective circumcisions.

I think those attitudes are cultural. If your friend is now in a Western society (which it sounds like she is), then she is getting the message loud and clear that what was done to her was wrong, took away her sexuality, was a horrendous mutilation, etc.

In nations where FGM is performed and accepted - if you talk to victims of FGM, they will give you lots and lots of reasons why they are GLAD they are circumcised (cleaner, healthier, etc, etc). They are in a culture which accepts FGM, so they accept it.

That's what's going on for your husband, I would guess - he's in a culture which accepts MGM as 'normal'. So he accepts it as 'normal' - after all, most (if not all) of his friends are circumcised, and they all say they're OK as well.

Whereas your friend is surrounded by uncircumcised women - who feel sorry for her.

I'm pretty sure that a generation from now, when MGM is regarded in the States in the same way that FGM is regarded now, many of the little boys being circumcised right now in the States will feel the same way your friend feels - they'll look around, know that many men have retained all of their sexuality, while theirs was altered without their consent.

They'll have all the information about the sensitivity, etc that they've lost.

And they won't have the comfort of knowing/believing that everyone around them is in the same boat.

MGM and FGM are both genital cutting. And both are deplorable for exactly the same reasons.
I so totally agree!
Circ'd women in Africa, for example, say that their sex life is fine, they are perfectly ok and glad to be circ'd and would do it to their daughters because it's perfectly NORMAL.

Here is a very interesting movie about FGM http://www.thenewsroom.com/details/3...fe+and+Leisure
post #38 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai
Actually Type I is most analagous to male circ. Type II, the excision of the clitoris, is a bit worse.
Well, it's hard to say, really, given that we now know that the bulk of the clitoris is internal, not external. Yes, removing the external female prepuce and clitoris can't be good, but how much it's worse than/better than male circ, which removes all of the ridged band, frenulum, foreskin.....
post #39 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
Well, it's hard to say, really, given that we now know that the bulk of the clitoris is internal, not external. Yes, removing the external female prepuce and clitoris can't be good, but how much it's worse than/better than male circ, which removes all of the ridged band, frenulum, foreskin.....
Yes, the internal workings of the clitoris occupy roughly the same amount of space as the penis.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Image:C...er_anatomy.gif

BTW, it occurred to me last night (changing out some jewelry ) that my hood is where about 90% of my pleasurable feelings lie- if my glans clitoris was exposed because of prepuce removal, I think I'd beg to have it cut off, too. The thought of an exposed glans is torture, just torture.

Masturbation for unmutilated men & women (aside from little personal 'extras') is pretty much the same- gliding the prepuce/hood over the glans & shaft. Same equipment.
post #40 of 40
it occurred to me last night (changing out some jewelry ) that my hood is where about 90% of my pleasurable feelings lie- if my glans clitoris was exposed because of prepuce removal, I think I'd beg to have it cut off, too. The thought of an exposed glans is torture, just torture.

this is why i started restoring.it is torture when i walk/run and even more so after a shower.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Case Against Circumcision
This thread is locked  
Mothering › Forums › Health › The Case Against Circumcision › Comparing Circumcision to FGM