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talk to me about wifely submission and gender roles - Page 3

post #41 of 228
I promise I'm going to stay out of the discussion, but I did want to say that my father explained to me that traditionally the woman handles the family finances and makes day-to-day financial decisions, but that he did it in our family because he and my mom decided that it would be better if he did it. .... My dad also did "heavier" housework, like washing pots, heavy cleaning and yard work.

My grandparents emigrated from Ireland to the US and seemed to believe the same things.

so it seems that "traditional gender roles" may vary a lot by culture.
post #42 of 228
I am trying to understand the dynamics of being a submissive wife. That´s kind of why I asked about domestic discipline. I can´t imagine every submissive wife being the same, and every head of the household the same.

Is a submissive wife submissive in all aspects of the relationship? Does it mean she has to be submissive in the bedroom too - or does this mean only in matters of general day-to-day stuff?

Where does it start - where does it end?
post #43 of 228
Wanted to add: the word picture I have in my head about our marriage, when it comes to the "helpmeet" kind of thing is definitely something like Arwyn in LOTR, I am a warrior princess (just 'cause I like to look hawt and he is riding alongside me on the field of battle, and we have each other's backs. I'm a goof.
post #44 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
It depends on the couple. Some choose to incorporate DD; some don't. DD threads have a tendency not to go well, so I'll refrain from further discussion of that. Suffice to say, the factors that influence a couple to choose DD are multifaceted vary from couple to couple.
Thanks for the reply Brigianna. I didn´t mean to be controversial.
post #45 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by frog View Post
Brigianna, could you comment on that link that Pia posted, if only to indicate whether you think that's a fair representation of what DD is?
That's a fair representation of one man's version of DD. There are other versions. Taken In Hand is, I think, a more balanced view. There are several writers, so several perspectives, ranging the spectrum, from full-blown... whatever the LDD guy is talking about, to a more moderate approach that is more respectful-relationship-based.
post #46 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I promise I'm going to stay out of the discussion...
Oh, I wish you wouldn't!
post #47 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
That's a fair representation of one man's version of DD. There are other versions. Taken In Hand is, I think, a more balanced view. There are several writers, so several perspectives, ranging the spectrum, from full-blown... whatever the LDD guy is talking about, to a more moderate approach that is more respectful-relationship-based.
Thanks, Brigianna.

Is it typical or no that rape justification is part of DD, in your opinion/experience?
post #48 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
That's a fair representation of one man's version of DD. There are other versions. Taken In Hand is, I think, a more balanced view. There are several writers, so several perspectives, ranging the spectrum, from full-blown... whatever the LDD guy is talking about, to a more moderate approach that is more respectful-relationship-based.
Thanks again, Brigianna. The site you mention does look a whole lot more varied than the other one.
post #49 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by frog View Post
Thanks, Brigianna.

Is it typical or no that rape justification is part of DD, in your opinion/experience?
No. In any respectful relationship, consent is key. Anything non-consensual would be unacceptable.
post #50 of 228
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniedb View Post
Wanted to add: the word picture I have in my head about our marriage, when it comes to the "helpmeet" kind of thing is definitely something like Arwyn in LOTR, I am a warrior princess (just 'cause I like to look hawt and he is riding alongside me on the field of battle, and we have each other's backs. I'm a goof.
that was totally a creation of Peter Jackson's. you're more like Eowyn.
post #51 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by theretohere View Post
I ask him before spending money because he does the finances- I honestly don't know how much is in an account on a given day.
So the only thing you're asking your husband is whether there's enough money in the bank to purchase something? And he might say "well, you should probably wait til I get paid next week, the light bill's about to come out" - is that the basic concept?
post #52 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarenSwan View Post
I believe in wifely submission, and I also believe in husbandly submission. We submit to one another in love. Christ's way is one of a radical reversal of all the earthly power structures, and as my husband and I each seek to be conformed to Christ's image, we seek to give ourselves up and come under the other in support. The beauty of it is that in giving of ourselves, each partner is seeking the other's best, and both of our needs are taken care of.
I think this beautiful, and I think generally this is what we are striving toward in my marriage, perhaps just with a little bit more emphasis on DH's role as leader in the family - not boss, or president, or whatever, but leader, if that makes sense? I've also heard it referred to in my faith as the husband being the head of the family and the wife being the heart of the family - the wife is at the center, the core of the family life, and the man is leading and guarding the family, if that image is more effective for some people? I think there's an element of chivalry there too, which some have touched on with the LOTR imagery, etc. and I think chivalry is lovely and sadly absent in much of our culture - maybe these issues are related?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CarenSwan View Post
BundleFishMama, thank you for your thoughtful post. I think it is always helpful to have a window into the lives of others.
I am so glad that this works for you, and it seems to work well for many! When that is the case, I think that's great. What I do not accept, however, is the idea that this type of marriage works for all couples. While I feel fine about making some broad gender stereotypes, not every man or woman fits into their respective box. Some women are just plain born leaders and some women are not very nurturing, while some men are nurturing and some men are born to follow. What always amazes me about the example of Christ is that he treated each person he met as an individual. He did not follow what was expected in that day in terms of how to treat women. In fact, he radically challenged cultural norms around women's roles all the time. I am a feminist insofar as I believe that while gender differences exist to some extent, they are not DESTINY!
I agree with you, mostly...I wouldn't say all marriages or even all Christian marriages MUST be like this, but I do think for many if not most, marriages would be happier and holier if the husband and wife did at least strive toward this? Maybe that's presumptuous of me to say, but I've seen it in my own life - I was always that "born leader" and "not very nuturing" type you mention - I was career-driven and power-hungry and quite selfish and wasn't even sure I wanted to have children. Now, I've tried to change many parts of myself that I think really needed to be changed (not eliminated totally, but changed/refocused somehow) and mothering is my life, and I've never been happier. I'm just one example though....not saying it's the same for everyone...

Quote:
Originally Posted by frog View Post
Another question: I know that in many dom/sub relationships, there's a "safe word." Does something similar exist in "wifely submission" relationships?
I don't understand this question...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama View Post
Do you mind giving me an example of a situation where compromise is impossible, and thus judgment calls should be made by the husband? Obviously there will be certain situations where your husband may be more equipped to make a decision, but the same can be said for you. What happens when you are the ones who's equipped? Do you still defer to him if he disagrees?

Also, please clarify the second part of the quote. What would be the desired attitude and why?
Sure! In fact, ironically, I'll give an example of a time when I actually insisted on having my way and then regretted it. When my DD1 was 3, she saw some kids at playgroup who had their ears pierced and started *begging* nonstop to get earrings. I thought it would be adorable, but DH thought she was way too young. We argued about this for weeks. It was one of those black-or-white issues; she couldn't get her ears pierced halfway Either they would be pierced now or they would not be pierced now, someone had to "win" and someone had to "lose" - not that we thought of it that way, of course, but ykwim - someone had to back down and someone was going to get his or her way. I insisted that I, being the mother and typically the one who makes a lot of the decisions (with DH's agreement 99% of the time) about the kids, this should be my choice. I went on and on and kept discussing it over and over and eventually he gave up and said, "fine, do what you think is right" - so I had her ears pierced and it was a disaster. She kept pulling at them, pulled them out several times and made her ears bleed, got her hair twisted around them, they got infected - you get the idea. So eventually we took the earrings out and let the holes close up. To this day, DH (half-jokingly) reminds me that he was right and I should have listened to him, and that's what happens when I don't defer to him. Not an extremely serious example, but you get the idea.

I guess the thing is that I trust my DH to recognize when I have more expertise in a given situation and delegate that to me. Like a CEO of a company is "in charge" so to speak, but if he's smart, he doesn't do the entire company's work all by himself, yk? He has people on his team with different expertise. So generally my DH handles the finances in terms of day-to-day spending, but he knows nothing about long-term investments and since my parents were both financial professionals, he delegates that stuff to me.

What I mean about the attitude of submission is kind of what CarenSwan very eloquently said - Biblical wifely submission is hard to see or understand in isolation - at least for Catholics, it's one part of an entire enormous theology about faith and the purpose of life and humanity and human relationships in general. It's not about power or control or who "wins" in a given situation (at least it's not supposed to be) but it's more about sacrifice and true love and putting the other first and helping each other to fulfill your roles as you believe God intended.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pia View Post
Does being a christian submissive wife automatically mean that the relationship includes christian domestic discipline? Or are they two separate things? Reading about domestic discipline, I see they also mention head of the household.
I don't know what that term means exactly, but if you're talking about physical discipline, oh Lord no!! I can't speak for everyone - but at least not for Catholics (I know the doctrines of our faith very well, and that kind of thing is NOT be part of them!), and not for any other Christians I know. I have never even heard of anything like that IRL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pia View Post
I am trying to understand the dynamics of being a submissive wife. That´s kind of why I asked about domestic discipline. I can´t imagine every submissive wife being the same, and every head of the household the same.

Is a submissive wife submissive in all aspects of the relationship? Does it mean she has to be submissive in the bedroom too - or does this mean only in matters of general day-to-day stuff?

Where does it start - where does it end?
Well I think this would depend - like I said, for Catholics anyway, this fits into a whole body of spiritual teaching on human/sexual relationships. We call this the theology of the body (much of which was explicated by Pope John Paul II) and everyone I know of my faith who practices wifely submission also follows our Church's teachings on sexuality, which are very beautiful IMO. There is an emphasis on mutuality and sacrifice even in the bedroom (each spouse thinking more about the other and about the marriage as a whole than about his or her own personal pleasure).
post #53 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by BundleFishMama View Post
I don't understand this question...?
In some dom/sub and/or BD/SM relationships, there's a "safe word." If/when it's uttered by the sub, whatever's happening has to stop.
post #54 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by theretohere View Post
I ask him before spending money because he does the finances- I honestly don't know how much is in an account on a given day.
I don't mean to upset you, but what happens when you husband dies suddenly? Or is in a coma? What will happen to you then?

My husband pays the bills. But I do know where all the bills are and whats been paid and what has not and how much are in our accounts. I think it would be a disservice to myself and my children to put them in a situation where I was clueless. No way!
post #55 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by pia View Post
It´t basically also a relationship where the wife submits to the husband (head of the household), but he also disciplines her. With her permission.

I first read about it in another thread...then yep, I googled. :
To me it´s truly shocking, but I am intrigued by how and why people chose to live like that.

No need to google Frog take a look here:
http://lovingdd.blogspot.com/


Oh wow. Is this like okay because its hiding behind the Bible?

Oh Wow..... I mean I know people are into spanking during sex, but this is....uh...better shut up now.
post #56 of 228
BundleFishMama- Thanks for example. I get what you're saying, but even in that scenario, I still feel that middle ground could have been reached by talking it over and deciding on an age you both felt comfortable with. To me that would have shown mutual respect for each others positions.

I guess the problem I have is the lack of balance it creates when one partner is constantly deferred to. I've met women practicing this lifestyle who's husbands thought breastfeeding was disgusting and didn't want them feeding their babes like that. Who "wins" then? I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding where the line is drawn and how you make distinct guidelines for the lifestyle and live within them. If it's a universal understanding that this is "Biblical" and the right way to have a Godly marriage, then why isn't it more cut and dry?

As far as attitude is concerned, I completely believe in dying to ourselves and sacrificial love. I think when we are living in a way that esteems and builds our partner, it's a beautiful representation of Christs love for us, and his love living within us. I guess we just differ on how that is to be lived out within the confines of marriage.

I appreciate your perspective and willingness to dialog.
post #57 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama View Post
As far as attitude is concerned, I completely believe in dying to ourselves and sacrificial love.
I don't understand this. Could you expand, please?
post #58 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatWrangler View Post


Oh wow. Is this like okay because its hiding behind the Bible?

Oh Wow..... I mean I know people are into spanking during sex, but this is....uh...better shut up now.
If I may point out, nowhere on that site is the Bible mentioned. There are Christians, non-Christians, people of all persuasions, participating in that type of lifestyle.
post #59 of 228
You know. Christian Wifely Submission is difficult to explain to those that have no concept of it or those have never experienced it. It takes a delicate balance of submission and restraint.

In general, WS is not at all like dom/sub situations. Because WS included opinions and partnership from both sides whereas dom/sub is command/obey. WS does not include DD, that is totally separate, though some people merge DD into WS. WS also does not mean manipulation, though again, it could be used the wrong way and become that; because, in most any given relationship, manipulation can be done if you know the right points to press.

I am the "Queen" of my castle, and am treated more as a Queen when I treat my husband with more respect and when he feels more of a Man. My husband is the King, the Man, and when he feels good about himself tends to be more receptive to my needs. (I WANT to feel like a precious gem to my husband. I WANT to feel loved and adored and desired. And by allowing my husband to be the head, and treating him with the respect that position deserves, he in return treats me with the respect that my position deserves.) My submitting to his authority makes him my "boss" in a vague sense of the word (In the same way that any corporation or entity has a head/boss/leader, but that does not mean that they are the most important, just the top of the chain of command). We conform to basic "gender roles" (because that is our personality not because it is necessary). I am the "neck" and my husband is the "head" (because I help to direct my husband in his responsibilities). All these things are true. But they also must be taken into context.

My husband helps me with the family, bath children, wash dishes, do laundry, clean toilets. He also takes out the trash, runs the finances, takes the spiritual lead, and so much more. I defer to him with things that can not be compromised on, yet before that happens, we discuss the issue, debate it sometimes, and both explain our positions. Most of the time we come to an agreement, but on the rare occasions that there MUST be a choice, I GIVE it to him. So what if it is not the best choice. So what if it makes life harder. I find that in the long run, it is for the greater good. We all make mistakes and no one will ever learn if they don't face the consequences of them.

OTOH, I do the power tools, the organization, the driving, the scheduling, the grass mowing, and all the repairs. I also do the computer work.

We give and take. That is all part of our WS. I defer to my Hubby, but that does not mean he dominates me or that I am a door mat. We are partners.
post #60 of 228
John 15:12-13 says, "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one then this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Dying to ourselves is simply a metaphor for giving up self serving desires that conflict with our command to honor the Lord. To me, sacrificial love was demonstrated to us on the cross, if Jesus command was for us to love each other as he loved us, it's a call to sacrifice.

I believe this ties into all of our facets of our relationships, and this most definitely includes our partners.

Sorry this is short and sweet. This is my busiest time of the day. I'll be back with more later tonight, but I hope that clears up a bit of what I was trying to convey.
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