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Formula....the new rebellion... - Page 3  

post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundAbout View Post
I am extremely confident with my decisions. I think the only way I could feel guilty about a parenting decision is if I changed my mind later on a subject after receiving more information.

I think the FFing moms who feel guilty are the ones who know that breast is best. The women who don't see a difference (like my mom) probably don't feel an ounce of guilt.
just want to add a jack newman-quote:

Finally, who does feel guilty about breastfeeding? Not the women who make an informed choice to bottle feed. It is the woman who wanted to breastfeed, who tried, but was unable to breastfeed who feels guilty. In order to prevent women feeling guilty about not breastfeeding what is required is not avoiding promotion of breastfeeding, but promotion of breastfeeding coupled with good, knowledgeable and skillful support. This is not happening in most North American or European societies.

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/bf_and_guilt_01-00.html
post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kierdan'sMom View Post
I'm with Kristen in this. I think many of us still have a bit of the bucking conformity gene in us. So while some use it to justify FF, I used to BF. Everyone but my parents was convinced I wouldn't be able to, if I did, my milk wouldn't be good enough, yada yada. Just made me more determined to do what I already planned to do.
:

Now, I decided to breastfeed because of all the reasons we all know so well here, but I think what reeeaaaally kept me going when it got tough was that I needed to prove my nay-saying family wrong!

I'll admit, even I was unsure if I would be able to keep up the demands of my 11lb newborn, but I didn't let them know that!
post #43 of 59
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Originally Posted by peacelovingmama View Post
I have come across that attitude too.

I just can't imagine compromising my child's health to indulge my desire to "rebel.":
:
post #44 of 59
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Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
I'm not sure I completely agree with this...guilt comes from within, but it's often within us because of societal pressures/expectations. Look at all the rape and molestation survivors who feel guilty because society expected them to do something differently, even though it wasn't possible. They know they didn't do anything wrong, but they still often feel guilt.
: THANK YOU!
post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundAbout View Post
I agree. I have had people try to make me feel guilty about not circing my son and it doesn't work one bit because I *know* I am right about my decision to leave him intact. Same with other parenting decision - including my decision to supplement occasionally when we were having huge weight gain issues. I am extremely confident with my decisions. I think the only way I could feel guilty about a parenting decision is if I changed my mind later on a subject after receiving more information.

I think the FFing moms who feel guilty are the ones who know that breast is best. The women who don't see a difference (like my mom) probably don't feel an ounce of guilt.
I don't think there is a single person on the planet who has had a baby that doesn't know "breast is best." It's not enough to know that little soundbyte. It's about knowing the degree to which formula is inferior to breastmilk, and about having the support in place to succeed at breastfeeding. Heck, the formula companies are the ones who say "breast is best." It's part of their language.

I think every woman who feeds her child formula, whether she admits it or not, and whether she could have breastfed or not, feels a little bit of guilt. I think it's pretty common knowledge that breastmilk and breastfeeding are superior, but that doesn't change the fact that there are OTHER issues working against women in their breastfeeding success. Other issues that are often intangible, like the pressure from family members. If your mom didn't breastfeed you, you probably won't get accurate breastfeeding information from her (because she probably doesn't have any to give you -- but you can be sure she'll probably have an opinion one way or another, and she'll probably share that opinion with you). It's less likely in this situation for you to end up breastfeeding (though obviously there are many exceptions to this -- but probably not enough exceptions in the aggregate).

I think this perception of formula-feeding as being a "rebellious" act was brought up by Songbh on another thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&postcount=40. Basically, it's a defense mechanism that occurs after the fact, or preemptively, so that any argument in favor of breastfeeding is dismissed out-of-hand. I don't think mothers who formula-feed by choice are monsters, nor do I think they love their babies any less than I love mine. I think presuming anything close to that is overly simplistic. I think these women are, sadly, sabotaged, and the only way we can hope to overcome this society-wide sabotage of women and their babies is by continuing to fight for proper reform that will support breastfeeding and lactation while suppressing would-be saboteurs (formula company marketing attempts, baby-unfriendly hospital policies, lactation-unfriendly workplaces, etc).
post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlewomyn View Post
That is why I am breastfeeding, because formula was getting shoved down my throat. My MIL wanted to buy me a big pitcher from pampered chef to mix up big batches of formula, my SIL told me I wouldn't be able to breastfeed, just like her, and the formula companies just kept sending coupons/checks and formula samples to my door. Heck, the hospital nurse even sent me home with some similac and instructions to supplement (not to mention what the ped said at two weeks when DD didn't gain back her birth weight). Formula was just shoved down my throat so much I didn't want to formula feed in the end.
Thats perfect. I love it
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaBear1976 View Post
I don't think there is a single person on the planet who has had a baby that doesn't know "breast is best."
Actually, on another board I used to frequent, one of the ddc had a moderator that didn't believe the "breast is best" Called it all a crock. So there are people out there who just refuse to believe despite the research.
The rest of your post, I pretty much agree with : It is a society wide sabotage. But many things that involve women are sabotaged, aren't they.
post #48 of 59
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Originally Posted by neverdoingitagain View Post
Actually, on another board I used to frequent, one of the ddc had a moderator that didn't believe the "breast is best" Called it all a crock. So there are people out there who just refuse to believe despite the research.
Well, and part of that is that some of this "research" comes to conclusions that says formula feeding and breastfeeding both result in identical outcomes for certain things... Do I believe that "research?" Not as far as I can throw it! Will the press? It doesn't matter what they believe; they're just trying to sell papers and advertising space, so if there's a juicy story about a new study on breastfeeding that comes to conclusions people aren't expecting, it'll sell more papers. If the press reports it, people will read it, and consumer opinion is thus changed en masse, in favor of the formula companies. It doesn't matter how many times anyone says, "Oh, but despite this research, you should keep breastfeeding your baby because it's good for other things," because nobody will listen at that point. They will have tuned out, reassuring themselves that it's okay to bottlefeed because the scientific studies say there's no difference: "breastfeeding wouldn't make much of a difference anyway." Popular opinion does seem to be that there isn't much difference between formula and breastmilk. I think for the most part your average mainstream person probably thinks breastfeeding is better (or "best") but not better by much, so it's more "practical" to just bottlefeed. And what does that tell me? Formula marketing works. Their message is getting across loud and clear, and we have a long way to go if we're going to fix that.

Quote:
The rest of your post, I pretty much agree with :


Quote:
It is a society wide sabotage. But many things that involve women are sabotaged, aren't they.
Yes, unfortunately. :
post #49 of 59

Thank you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmzbm View Post
You CANNOT make someone feel guilty, guilt comes from within. If you are OK with what you're doing, there will be no guilt.
WELL SAID!
post #50 of 59
They're cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I mean, who would in their right mind would be convinced to do something detrimental just because it's detrimental? Apart from teenagers, of course
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeepyCat View Post
I totally get it.

Look, I'm a reasonable person. A responsible adult. I want the best for my kid. I'm strongly in favor of breastfeeding, even lactivist. And some of the attitudes I hear from other lactivists just plain piss me off. It's hard for me to feel that, in feeding my baby and advocating for breastfeeding, I'm associating myself with people who seem to go out of their way to make women who can't or don't breastfeed feel excluded, isolated and ashamed. I have had casual conversations with people who, when they hear that I breastfeed, feel spontaneously moved to defend their own choice or need for formula, and what that says to me is that they presume that, because I breastfeed and they don't, I am planning to attack them. I hate that.

So sometimes I think that women arrive at formula feeding as a means of ensuring that they can maintain their social support networks, of assuring themselves and their friends that they're not going to lash out on this issue: "Hey, it's okay, it's just me, I'm just folks - look, you're safe, I use formula."

And I wish that approach didn't make sense to anybody, but things are what they are, and I see how it does.
Yep, me too.
post #52 of 59
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Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
If women are being put off by some lactivism, then we need to figure out what kind of BF promotions are causing these problems so we can fix it.

The focus truly needs to be on formula companies, not individual families who use formula for whatever reason. We need to be supportive of ALL mothers- because mothers who don't feel supported are less likely to do well by their children in all areas of parenting. Women who FF and don't feel alienated by lactivists are more likely to BF future children, and be supportive of their grandkids being BF someday.

It really is possible to normalize BF without alienating FF mothers. All babies are precious, no matter how they're fed.

:
post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlewomyn View Post
That is why I am breastfeeding, because formula was getting shoved down my throat. My MIL wanted to buy me a big pitcher from pampered chef to mix up big batches of formula, my SIL told me I wouldn't be able to breastfeed, just like her, and the formula companies just kept sending coupons/checks and formula samples to my door. Heck, the hospital nurse even sent me home with some similac and instructions to supplement (not to mention what the ped said at two weeks when DD didn't gain back her birth weight). Formula was just shoved down my throat so much I didn't want to formula feed in the end.
this is our story
post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmzbm View Post
You CANNOT make someone feel guilty, guilt comes from within. If you are OK with what you're doing, there will be no guilt.

I disagree. When it comes to our children, there is very little certianty.Many of us are uncertian and worry about doing the right thing. You can certianly help to induce guilt and defensiveness in any mother, especially an uncertian one, by telling her what she is doing is wrong or harmful to her child.
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by sogriffin View Post
If that was a reasonable line of logic, then car safety campaigns would be causing people to NOT put their babies in car seats right?
Yes, but that's the law and you can get fined for not putting your kid in a safety seat. Nobody is going to fine you for formula feeding your kid. When you have the whole driving record, fine with court costs, and immediate consequences that not properly restraining your child involves it gets more attention. However, the consequences of unnecessary formula feeding are not as apparent and are more long term, plus it's not against the law.

Anna
post #56 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonrisaa29 View Post
I am sorry but I just don't agree with this. I can be 100% fine and know I am doing what I can for my child. But to be told day after day that you're killing your child, you must want your child to be stupid, you are just making up excuses, you're lying, you don't breastfeed because your mexican and so on. You must be a bigger person than I am to never let things get to you.

So by telling someone that you are killing your child or causing them to lose hundreds of IQ points by giving FF isn't meant to make a woman feel something at an emotional level?
We as a society have no problems with protecting our next generation from willful harm in other situations and shaming the parents for knowingly putting a child in danger. Why should it be different for something so fundamental as nutrition? I as a parent am expected to take personal responsibility for the choices I make regarding the health and safety of my children, or the state can step in and take them away if I fail in potentially catastrophic ways. If I fed my children nothing but cans of soda, bags of chips, and a multivitamin I'd be endangering their health. They'd be getting the calories and other nutrients they needed, but not in the most optimal way. The same thing is true with formula. The baby gets the calories, vitamins, and minerals necessary for survival, but not in the most optimal way. How is this different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
I'm not sure I completely agree with this...guilt comes from within, but it's often within us because of societal pressures/expectations. Look at all the rape and molestation survivors who feel guilty because society expected them to do something differently, even though it wasn't possible. They know they didn't do anything wrong, but they still often feel guilt.
Not doing the best for your child when you don't know an alternative is one thing, but knowingly giving your child less than the best because of peer pressure is quite another. Comparing rape to breastfeeding is perpetuating the idea that the breast is solely a sexual organ. Heck, rape isn't even about sex, but power and control. So how what does power and control have to do with infant nutrition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkTrance View Post
I totally, completely agree.

Look. I'm obese. It is NOT because of Richard Simmons.

When something is difficult, and one has to make the heart wrenching decision to stop trying or choose another path, it's easier to blame others than it is to blame oneself and then go through a grieving process and get over it. In the long run, however, it's healthier to admit fault or failure, analyze ones actions and be prepared for the next time a similar decision comes around.

I'm not trying to minimize other people's experiences with lactivists who hurt their feelings. Trust me, I've been there.
ITA. This is about personal responsibility for one's actions or inactions, not about being touchy feely and helping someone justify a choice they made that they as adults know was a bad one. Passing the buck isn't going to right anything. Ok, so some people do go to the extremes and do their best (or worst) to get the FF mom's goat and really do a number on her because they can. That's not right either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyxx View Post
just want to add a jack newman-quote:

Finally, who does feel guilty about breastfeeding? Not the women who make an informed choice to bottle feed. It is the woman who wanted to breastfeed, who tried, but was unable to breastfeed who feels guilty. In order to prevent women feeling guilty about not breastfeeding what is required is not avoiding promotion of breastfeeding, but promotion of breastfeeding coupled with good, knowledgeable and skillful support. This is not happening in most North American or European societies.

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/bf_and_guilt_01-00.html
As usual, an answer jumps out at us from the professionals that sums it up. See above about personal responsibility...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
They're cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I mean, who would in their right mind would be convinced to do something detrimental just because it's detrimental? Apart from teenagers, of course
My point exactly... When you become a mother, you are pretty much forced to grow up in so many ways. Unfortunately, personal responsibility and good judgment aren't always those aspects that kick in.

Anna
post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da WIC Lady View Post
We as a society have no problems with protecting our next generation from willful harm in other situations and shaming the parents for knowingly putting a child in danger. Why should it be different for something so fundamental as nutrition? I as a parent am expected to take personal responsibility for the choices I make regarding the health and safety of my children, or the state can step in and take them away if I fail in potentially catastrophic ways. If I fed my children nothing but cans of soda, bags of chips, and a multivitamin I'd be endangering their health. They'd be getting the calories and other nutrients they needed, but not in the most optimal way. The same thing is true with formula. The baby gets the calories, vitamins, and minerals necessary for survival, but not in the most optimal way. How is this different?
This is different because for most things regarding child abuse, there are public service announcements, or societal safeguards in place (like the free carseat at the hospital programs, as one example) that let the general public know what the appropriate course of action is to prevent child abuse.

There is NO SUCH PROGRAM for breastfeeding promotion (in fact, there is the TOTAL OPPOSITE in most institutions with any power, like hospitals, television stations, and magazines). Your average ordinary Joe (or Jane) on the street is totally confused, if not outright oblivious, about breastfeeding. If anyone finds out about breastfeeding in this society, it's through word-of-mouth because of the luck of knowing a lactivist or by careful, hard research. Yes, the formula companies tell everyone "breast is best" but while they say it, they're saying "but this formula is very nearly almost as good, so why bother?" They also say, "Breastfeeding is hard and not worth the effort." They also say, "It will hurt and you'll want to quit." They also say, "Your doctor and/or hospital recommends you use Brand X formula when you finally realize your milk is drying up, you naive, idealistic new mom; here, let us 'help' you with with that inconsolable baby with these free samples." These messages are read LOUD and CLEAR by the mainstream, whether the mainstream realizes it or not. The evidence is in our staggeringly low breastfeeding rates, particularly among those in this population who are the least likely to know how to educate themselves.

Most mothers who don't succeed at breastfeeding are sabotaged, plain and simple, by a society that, like Song stated in another post, is HOSTILE to breastfeeding.

You can go on and on and on about "personal responsibility" this and that, but the bottom line is, if a person is informed their whole lives that formula is "just as good" and all the messages that person gets from the people they love and trust the most for their information (spouse, mom, dad, in-laws, grandma, grandpa, siblings, aunts, uncles, doctors, nurses, powerful hospitals) are telling them to "just give the baby a bottle," this is the natural result. Having one stranger lactivist in their lives that tells them the exact opposite of what everyone important to them is saying, if it has any impact at all, I see that as an enormous VICTORY, even if the person still ultimately makes the choice to bottle-feed/formula-feed.

I know you are in the trenches, as Song put it. I know it must be SO frustrating to see, day in and day out all these young girls who, in your opinion, just don't try hard enough for their babies, and who, for various other reasons, are irresponsible parents... Unfortunately, our society is not set up to be friendly toward moms, particularly single moms. And it's openly hostile to lactating moms, while being simultaneously friendly to formula marketing (oh, the irony).

But these young girls you see, Anna, these young girls probably have NO other lactivist influence in their lives. You are IT. Any small amount of work you do is significant and has a positive impact, even if you can't see it immediately. Even if you don't convince every single person you meet in that WIC office to breastfeed, even if your goals are not where you would like them to be, it's something.


Quote:
Not doing the best for your child when you don't know an alternative is one thing, but knowingly giving your child less than the best because of peer pressure is quite another. Comparing rape to breastfeeding is perpetuating the idea that the breast is solely a sexual organ. Heck, rape isn't even about sex, but power and control. So how what does power and control have to do with infant nutrition?
The comparison between rape and breastfeeding wasn't a direct one. It was more of a comparison to illustrate that survivors of rape, even though they did not ask to be raped, feel guilt nonetheless. It was brought up to illustrate that guilt can be induced by peer pressure, that you can, indeed "make" someone feel guilty, even if that person hasn't done anything wrong (someone else said that you only feel guilty when you know you're doing something wrong, but I disagree; some people feel guilty even when they haven't done anything wrong -- it's not ideal or wonderful, but it's an accurate reflection of reality).

And the argument I'm making here is that knowing there is an alternative is NOT enough for some people. To a lot of women the thought of breastfeeding is such a paradigm shift that it's too much to assimilate at once. I could easily compare it to the shift from disposable diapers to cloth. Yes, it's a no-brainer that cloth is better for the baby, better for the pocketbook, better for the environment, and easy to use, and for ME, it was an easy decision to make and keep... But for many, many, many people, it's TOO MUCH of a paradigm shift. How could I possibly judge anyone for making the decision to use disposables when I know how hard changing an entire paradigm is?

See what I mean?
post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonrisaa29 View Post
I am curious, is it ok then for a lactivist to make a FF mom feel guilty? On these boards we see moms get outraged because someone happened to make a mom who is BF/NIP feel horrible, ashamed, etc and to demean the BF woman's reason for BF and so on. I find it ironic that now that its a FF mom, its okay to make her feel belittled, second guess her "excuses" and assume with out any prior knowledge that she just doesn't really want to BF.

I have to be honest, I don't like sharing reasons why I can't BF with someone I just met, especially someone who I felt like wasn't going to be understanding or dismissive of my answers. If I am guility of failing in BF by someone who calls themself a lactivist, why should I even try to explain my situation. I realize that not all lactivists are like this and I've met some awesome women who actually have helped me, but sadly I find its more often to be the other kind.
I don't understand why I was quoted in this post. I never asked the FF mom to explain herself, I never made her feel guilty. She asked if X person BF and I said yes and it went from there.
post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmzbm View Post
You CANNOT make someone feel guilty, guilt comes from within. If you are OK with what you're doing, there will be no guilt.
You must not be Catholic.

First, I think it's entirely possible to have guilt even when you are OK with what you are doing. I'm type 1 diabetic (autoimmune diabetes) and I felt guilty when I was pregnant because I knew that I could not provide the optimal growing environment for my baby. I mean, really, how stupid is that? I was working my butt off to be super healthy and had bee-yoo-tiful control the whole way through, but still, I felt guilty over something outside my control. :

Second, even if you don't feel guilty, you can feel grief, annoyance, wistfulness, anger, sadness, etc. I have seen lactivists use the term "guilt" as an umbrella term to describe a variety of negative reactions that may not have anything to do with guilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katheek77 View Post
I'm not sure I completely agree with this...guilt comes from within, but it's often within us because of societal pressures/expectations. Look at all the rape and molestation survivors who feel guilty because society expected them to do something differently, even though it wasn't possible. They know they didn't do anything wrong, but they still often feel guilt.
:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da WIC Lady View Post
Comparing rape to breastfeeding is perpetuating the idea that the breast is solely a sexual organ.
She isn't comparing rape to breastfeeding, she's explaining that it's too simplistic to say that people only ever feel guilty if they have done something wrong and she used rape as an illustrative example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyxx View Post
just want to add a jack newman-quote:

Finally, who does feel guilty about breastfeeding? Not the women who make an informed choice to bottle feed. It is the woman who wanted to breastfeed, who tried, but was unable to breastfeed who feels guilty. In order to prevent women feeling guilty about not breastfeeding what is required is not avoiding promotion of breastfeeding, but promotion of breastfeeding coupled with good, knowledgeable and skillful support. This is not happening in most North American or European societies.

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/bf_and_guilt_01-00.html
:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaBear1976 View Post
I don't think there is a single person on the planet who has had a baby that doesn't know "breast is best."
Actually, I saw a poll not too long ago (I wish I could remember where) taken in the US that showed that a staggering percentage of the respondents (about 25% IIRC) thought that "formula is just as good as breastmilk."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaBear1976 View Post
It's not enough to know that little soundbyte. It's about knowing the degree to which formula is inferior to breastmilk, and about having the support in place to succeed at breastfeeding.
I think this is an excellent point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaBear1976 View Post
... they're just trying to sell papers and advertising space, so if there's a juicy story about a new study on breastfeeding that comes to conclusions people aren't expecting, it'll sell more papers.
This is very, very true. It makes me crazy.
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