please rethink using the term Blessingway to describe your baby shower*new info* - Page 11

[Sage_SS]

Originally Posted by gingerbane

It is very important to respect this about the Navajo culture and community but why do Navajo people not just use the original word from the Navajo language? Or do they, and non-Navajo people use "blessingway" because we don't know/can't pronounce the original word? It just seems odd to me. I mean we all say Bar Mitzvah and not it's English translation, "son of the commandment" and we say cinco de mayo not "5th of May" and Hannukah not "dedication" and on and on.

I'm a huge advocate of cultural appropriateness. But why use the non-cultural term for something and then ask everyone to keep it only in the culture? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm still on the first page, but this is what I was thinking as well.

[Sage_SS]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find white people LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.

Thank you for your post, bellymama.

Whoa and double whoa Cherry Bomb. That you think that white people can't be native is very racist. My hubby is as white as drywall, but he's 50% Sto:lo First Nations, here in Canada and the Western US. His entire family lives on reserve.

I understand that there are sacred ceremonies and beliefs. I respect it if someone would prefer if I don't use a phrase inappropriately. But to offend while making a point is volatile. And tho your comment was useful and made good points, I've lost the gist of it in my anger about your racist comment.
There are PLENTY of white people who are also Native.

[bellymama]

i think by white she meant non-native blood.
i am white, but have native blood, so i agree completely with that fact. but i am not raised traditionally, so i don't run around talking about the great spirit and passing out dream catchers just because i am 1/8 ,yk?
but i am pretty sure that when she wrote that, she meant she found it not very respectful that non-native people would be laughing about it.
but that was a long time ago, that she wrote it, so maybe she will come back and explain for herself.

[Sage_SS]

Ok.. I get that.

I don't know when this thread started. But I really, really do hate it when people use the term "white people" with such distaste when referring to non natives.

Native blood has been so watered down over the last hundred years, its nearly impossible to tell who is and isn't native and the color of the skin is NO indicator at all.

[lil_miss_understood]

Wow. What an emotionally charged thread. Thank you for bringing this up, bellymama.
I am "Indian". I will wait for those of you who object to my using that word to quiet down before continuing.
My mother was "Indian" when she was enrolled by the government and her reservation, as was my gran. I have been "Indian" my whole life. Because I *look* "white", I generally use the term "Native" when I'm speaking to others who don't know my background. However, when I'm on reserve and/or with others who *do* know my background and who call themselves "Indian" and are most comfortable with that term as opposed to the PC names which have come about in an attempt to disassociate the people from their past (IMO and the opinion of many of "my" people with whom I have spoken about the subject), I will say "Indian". That's what we were called. I'm tired of changing the terms I use to refer to myself just because "everyone else" (read: the dominant group) says "It's not right." If you want to get technical, I am Saulteaux and Cree by blood, and Ojibwa by "adoption". Of course, chances are, unless you are "Indian" or have extensively studied the background of "Indian" peoples, that means nothing to you. Basically, what I'm saying is this: Don't tell me what I am anymore. I am what I am and I am "Indian". I'm sorry if this offends those who have adopted the new term of "Native" or "Aboriginal" but that is how I was raised.
And that, basically, is what this is all about. When Europeans came to this country, we Indians had our own names for things. We had names for places, animals, trees, *ourselves*, our traditions, our rites of passage, our cultural practices... Everything that they had names for, we did also. In our own language.
Then all of that changed. We were told that the names for the places we had referred to a certain way for so long was now something else. The names for our trees were changed. Our words for them were outlawed, since our languages were not to be spoke on fear of death. When we said "I'm Ojibwa." or "I'm Navajo." or "I'm <whatever Indian tribe>.", we were told "No, you're Indian."
THAT, imo, is what this is about.
There are, now, Indian people who were raised using certain words for certain traditions/sacred rites/etc and why should we have to change our words *again* so that everyone else can have something they find uplifting? We *had* our own words. They were taken from us. We found new words... often more than once. Please don't take our words again.

ETA: I, by no means, speak for every "Indian". This is *my* experience, *my* opinion and the *general* consensus amongst those people of "Indian" descent with whom I have spoken on the subject.

[lil_miss_understood]

I know my last post was very emotional. This is an emotional subject for me. I have fought my whole life (as have many others) to learn "what it is to be Indian". Many of our traditions have been lost. Most of the others have been "renamed" By using the term "Blessingway" to refer to something you could easily call something else, it can confuse the issue for the young "Natives" who are searching desperately for their cultural identity.

[bellymama]

thanks for sharing this!

[bellymama]

if anybody feels like they need more information or reasons why they shouldn't use the term blessingway...these people would probably love to chat:

Center for Support & Protection of Indian Religions & Indigenous Traditions PHONE/FAX
510-535-0505 /
PO Box 17002
Oakland, CA 94601

Description. Center for the SPIRIT (Support and Protection of Indian Religions and Indigenous Traditions) is a nonprofit organization of American Indian people dedicated to the preservation and revitalization of American Indian spiritual practices and religious traditions. Headquartered in Oakland we have begun to systematically address the momentous problem of "New Age" exploitation and expropriation of the sacred traditions of American Indian tribes--a problem which has proliferated alarmingly in the Bay Area and throughout California in recent years. The center monitors assaults against Native American religion that occur across the country.

Mission. Dedicated to the preservation and revitalization of American Indian spiritual practices and religious traditions. Headquartered in Oakland we have begun to systematically address the momentous problem of "New Age" exploitation and expropriation of the sacred traditions of American Indian tribes--a problem which has proliferated alarmingly in the Bay Area and throughout California in recent years.

[BrooklynDoula]

Excellent information bellymama. It's so great that you keep this thread up to date for newly pg moms (and everyone else).

My brother and SIL are having a baby in your town later this summer!!

[bellymama]

thankyou

[autumnbloom]

I'm moving my response to the Blessingway? thread over here.... i haven't read through all 11 pages, but I think I have a fairly good gist of what's going on.

Also - before I begin, i'll note that I am part Caddo and part Comanche. I grew up in the Southwest, surrounded by reservations & Native American culture. Many of my best friends were full blood Native American (Many Dine/Navajo), and my mother was inducted to the Yavapai Tribe there as an honorary member, so if you consider her "true Yavapai" you could add that to my bloodline as well. (not that I feel it gives me any "extra" weight here... it just seems to be an issue in this thread that "white people" are allowed no opinion.)

That said, this is probably not at all popular opinion, but I have to wonder if its so socially unacceptable to adopt any traditions from other cultures, or if its just this.

We aren't Jewish but we celebrate Passover and I teach my children about Hanukkah. We do celebrations for Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and Christmas. Not because we have a specific religious affiliation with any of them (except Christmas, but that's a longer story), but because I think its important for my family to appreciate and learn about different traditions and cultures. To me its not about "stealing" it from a culture that created it, but rather, its about further understanding and respecting it.

If you've ever been to a cookout on Memorial day, but dont have any loved ones that you're "remembering" who served in the military, is that so uncouth?

Where do we draw the line?

I do understand that it is important to respect other cultures, and it is horrifying that so many went through the incredible oppression & suffering that has been described. It wasn't right. it wasn't something I would do, and I dont think any of these mamas are either.

It *is* important to respect the origin of things, but learning from, respecting, and adapting certain things from various cultures does not mean that we are repeating the same horrifying behavior that occurred in years past.

Celebrating a woman's transition into motherhood does not equal stealing land, killing native americans, or anything else along those lines. It is important to respect the origin of the tradition, and to respect the people who created it. However, I fail to see how it is so horrifying to adapt it to modern culture in a respectful way.

It is important to be respectful when learning and adapting new traditions from other cultures, but I think its also a positive thing that now we are focusing on the incredible traditions and moving power that we should have learned from the first time as a society from this group of individuals. I think that is a sign of growth and respect, rather than one of disrespect or "stealing".

In the end it winds up being a matter of free speech and personal preference. Whether you call it a bar mitzvah or a "passage into manhood" the traditions would be the same, and what you wind up fighting over are semantics.

Wouldn't it be more culturally sound, and progressive for cultures to come *together* to share their knowledge and traditions in a respectful manner rather than to play the "mine! mine! mine!" game?

Having grown up in the Southwest, and so ingrained in Native American culture, I have definitely come across some activists who want Native American purity, and for no one to come in and have *anything* to do with them, want the country back, and want repercussions for the decendants of those who hurt their ancestors.

I can't blame them for feeling that way after all that their culture went through.

BUT (and I hope I dont step on toes here - I'm just trying to make a point) - it is no more socially acceptable for African Americans or Mexicans, or Irish (for example) to ban people from having any traditions that they adapted. If that were the case, we would all be crossing the line by singing or listening to gospel music, celebrating St. Patties day, or having a margarita on Cinco De Mayo (the latter two, I believe to be a heck of a lot more disrespectful to those cultures, than adopting a mama blessing ceremony, which actually winds up benefiting the mama & baby in a sacred way, and in many many cases also acting as sense of education, reverence and respect for the culture from which it was adapted).

Again I ask... where do we draw the line??

[autumnbloom]

JacquelineR - I wanted to say thank you for sharing your own opinion & insight too... its good to hear from someone who is speaking directly for herself and the people she knows on this subject. I can see where you're coming from in a lot of ways, and can't blame you one bit for feeling that way.

One thing that stuck out for me was the statement, "We *had* our own words. They were taken from us. We found new words... often more than once. Please don't take our words again."

I'm so sorry for the pain and struggle that you all have experienced and the fear that you may one day experience something like that again.

My hope is that in cases like this "we" (the general public, who may want to learn about blessing ceremonies like this) wouldn't be "taking" anything from you, but instead learning and coming to respect it/you/Indian culture much more than "we" have in the past.

That's what I'm getting at when I say that I hope more than anything things like this can be seen and embraced as a sign of progression. Not a threat, but a chance for "us" to make changes and bridge the gap between cultures with an air of respect, rather than draw even deeper lines of separation, segregation, distrust, and hate.

Does that make any sense?

[Missy]

Originally Posted by autumnbloom

JacquelineR - I wanted to say thank you for sharing your own opinion & insight too... its good to hear from someone who is speaking directly for herself and the people she knows on this subject. I can see where you're coming from in a lot of ways, and can't blame you one bit for feeling that way.

One thing that stuck out for me was the statement, "We *had* our own words. They were taken from us. We found new words... often more than once. Please don't take our words again."

I'm so sorry for the pain and struggle that you all have experienced and the fear that you may one day experience something like that again.

My hope is that in cases like this "we" (the general public, who may want to learn about blessing ceremonies like this) wouldn't be "taking" anything from you, but instead learning and coming to respect it/you/Indian culture much more than "we" have in the past.

That's what I'm getting at when I say that I hope more than anything things like this can be seen and embraced as a sign of progression. Not a threat, but a chance for "us" to make changes and bridge the gap between cultures with an air of respect, rather than draw even deeper lines of separation, segregation, distrust, and hate.

Does that make any sense?

It doesn't make sense. The people who are most impacted by it have made a simple request. True respect, true progress would mean that we finally honor that. I genuinely don't get how people can cloak this in "respect" while disrespecting those who, yes, own the tradition.

[Missy]

And to some of your other points:

I can't speak about Passover, because I'm not Jewish. I don't get to make that determination. However. Memorial Day? Please. That belongs to no one. No one is born into that tradition and culture, and, in the US, it belongs to all of us. That was just silly.

[autumnbloom]

My examples with memorial day, and passover were just that - examples - not exact parallels.

I understand that some Native Americans have requested that "we" not call it a blessingway, but I have also known many many many people *IN* the Navajo (Dine) culture specifically who are more than willing to share their traditions. One loud voice doesn't necessarily speak for all, kwim?

(and by the way I wouldn't personally call it a blessingway if I were having a mama blessing ceremony, just because I'm not one to fight much or stir up any fuss. I'm mostly responding to the topic here, not defending my own use of the word).

I can see from your siggy that racism is an issue that you feel very strongly about. I do too. I think we just come at it with different angles.

I do respect requests of those who ask not to use it. I'm also just trying to strike up conversation that might bring about a different way of thinking, or hilight a different point of view.

*ETA* - I want to clarify that I really am in support of the preservation of Indian culture. My mother and I are currently working on the plans for a project with the Comanche nation here to help them preserve their language (which is quickly fading as it is not written), and to bring some income back to their community as well (through another means, as approved by the tribal council - its in the works). I really do have a BIG respect for Native Americans, but just like in ANY culture, you will have differences when it comes to what people think is best.

Imagine if people heard the voices of just the activists on one side of the coin for the many issues in the US: abortion, education, liberal versus conservative views on many things... its important to consider both sides of the coin to find a balance and make our own choices. I would hate to think that our whole nation would be represented by one party who spoke loudly. There are many voices that need to be heard to really get a better understanding.

I feel that applies here too, with Native American culture. The voices we've heard are just a few. I know for a fact I have talked to Navajo (Dine) people who were not only willing, but excited, to share their traditions with people... and not just individuals, but sometimes the entire town, inviting them in to view and learn about, and sometimes take part in ceremonies.

its a big world, with lots of opinions... its important to consider all.

[Missy]

It's really one thing when you are invited to learn about the traditions, and quite another when you appropriate a custom without that invitation.

And I get that you're stirring conversation, but the idea that "I'm just doing it because I respect the Dine and want to honor them" has been hashed out repeatedly on almost all of these threads, and what it boils down to is that it's simply not respectful if you continue to ignore the requests of those who own the tradition, y'know? That kind of defies the definition of respect.

To be clear, autumnbloom, I'm using "you" as a general term, even though I'm responding to your post.

[lil_miss_understood]

Also - before I begin, i'll note that I am part Caddo and part Comanche. I grew up in the Southwest, surrounded by reservations & Native American culture. Many of my best friends were full blood Native American (Many Dine/Navajo), and my mother was inducted to the Yavapai Tribe there as an honorary member, so if you consider her "true Yavapai" you could add that to my bloodline as well. (not that I feel it gives me any "extra" weight here... it just seems to be an issue in this thread that "white people" are allowed no opinion.)

Honestly, your opinion would mean just as much to me if you were "white" as it does coming from someone whose heritage is similar to my own. With that said, I need to ask you the same question my foster mother, a Medicine Woman, asked me when I said I was "part Indian". What part? Do you have some line on you where you stop being "European" and *start* being "Indian"? Basically, you're either "Indian" or you're not. "Blood quantum" means nothing and is something which was imposed on "us" by the people who oppressed "us" (and, in some ways, continue to do so through laws which are still on or have not been removed from "the books"). Imagine if other cultures were told "You have to be <whatever percent> "blood quantum" to count yourself as such." If we want to get into blood quantum, I am "1/4 Indian", but I still consider myself "just as Indian as" someone who is "full-blooded" and "no more Indian than" someone whose "blood quantum" is 1/8. My mother says I'm "more Indian" than she is because I was lucky enough to be exposed to and taught the traditions of "our People".

I understand that some Native Americans have requested that "we" not call it a blessingway, but I have also known many many many people *IN* the Navajo (Dine) culture specifically who are more than willing to share their traditions. One loud voice doesn't necessarily speak for all, kwim?

ITA. BUT when people not of the originating culture start using a word for a sacred ceremony to describe something supposedly based on it but having no knowledge of the origin, much less the actual ceremony, I take issue.

I

magine if people heard the voices of just the activists on one side of the coin for the many issues in the US: abortion, education, liberal versus conservative views on many things... its important to consider both sides of the coin to find a balance and make our own choices. I would hate to think that our whole nation would be represented by one party who spoke loudly. There are many voices that need to be heard to really get a better understanding.

Again, ITA. However, again ime- and bear in mind I'm from Canada where "Treaty Rights" are still enforced to some degree, when the dominant group starts complaining about the supposed "privileges" "we" have (ie hunting without a license, as per treaty agreements) and simultaneously taking "our" ceremonies without any knowledge of the ceremony whatsoever (*definitely not* bartered for in treaty agreements), I take issue also.

I feel that applies here too, with Native American culture. The voices we've heard are just a few. I know for a fact I have talked to Navajo (Dine) people who were not only willing, but excited, to share their traditions with people... and not just individuals, but sometimes the entire town, inviting them in to view and learn about, and sometimes take part in ceremonies.

Certainly. I am definitely excited to share my culture with people. That does *not* give them the right, however, to go and *perform* or *mimic* sacred rites without any knowledge of how to do so. I equate people holding non-NA "blessingways" with some person on the street with no theological background holding mass. Priests and pastors have gone to college and apprenticed to learn how to perform certain rites "properly". Just because a Medicine person's education is not from a college and "only" through a (usually very long) apprenticeship, it is somehow less than that? I think not.

It's really one thing when you are invited to learn about the traditions, and quite another when you appropriate a custom without that invitation.

Exactly.

[lil_miss_understood]

I should mention, also, that I am strong believer of the prophecy of "Rainbow warriors" or "Rainbow people". There *is* nothing which separates us all from each other, we are all the same. My issue is in people not respecting the *knowledge* required to perform these ceremonies *properly*. Just because we're all the same, doesn't mean that we all know the same things. We all know different things and it isn't until we learn to learn from each other *respectfully* and accept that we all have different knowledge that we can live in harmony with each other. Again, my opinion.

[autumnbloom]

Since we seem to be in agreement with so many things (albeit coming from different perspectives) I'll just reply to this specific part:

Honestly, your opinion would mean just as much to me if you were "white" as it does coming from someone whose heritage is similar to my own. With that said, I need to ask you the same question my foster mother, a Medicine Woman, asked me when I said I was "part Indian". What part? Do you have some line on you where you stop being "European" and *start* being "Indian"? Basically, you're either "Indian" or you're not. "Blood quantum" means nothing and is something which was imposed on "us" by the people who oppressed "us" (and, in some ways, continue to do so through laws which are still on or have not been removed from "the books"). Imagine if other cultures were told "You have to be <whatever percent> "blood quantum" to count yourself as such." If we want to get into blood quantum, I am "1/4 Indian", but I still consider myself "just as Indian as" someone who is "full-blooded" and "no more Indian than" someone whose "blood quantum" is 1/8. My mother says I'm "more Indian" than she is because I was lucky enough to be exposed to and taught the traditions of "our People".

I totally get what you're saying. I really wasn't addressing that specific part to you (so please dont take offense). There were posts earlier on that indicated that was an "issue" for some people and I really only said it "tongue-in-cheek." Like I said - I dont feel it gives any more or less weight to my points, as I feel they stand strong enough on their own.

I'm very much in agreement with Sage_SS when she said:

Ok.. I get that.

I don't know when this thread started. But I really, really do hate it when people use the term "white people" with such distaste when referring to non natives.

Native blood has been so watered down over the last hundred years, its nearly impossible to tell who is and isn't native and the color of the skin is NO indicator at all.

Anyhow - on being "Indian"... I do have to respectfully disagree that you are all or nothing. That, or maybe come to a *type* of agreement with your stance in that you can be fully Indian (even with only "1/4 blood" or however much - as an example), and fully ____ (Irish, English, Mexican, what-have-you). In my opinion its not right to expect someone to claim only one nationality when their heritage is so colorful.

I dont claim to have all of the rights of full-blood Indians, but I still consider it a valid and important part of who I am. I have never put in for any type of assistance (like with education funding) or claimed any rights to anything, other than my nationality and heritage.

Its something I am deeply proud of, cherish, and respect. Its a part of me, who I am, and my genetic history. I do wish that I had been exposed to more of that part of my family, but unfortunately (due to family politics, a divorce in the family, etc) the closest I was able to get growing up was being in an area with other Native Americans who I was fortunate to get to know personally and also learn about their culture and traditions.

But I am also proud to have ancestors from Ireland and England too. We celebrate our Irish heritage a great deal. As much as we celebrate our Native American heritage. I'm not less of one because I am some of the other.

[autumnbloom]

I should mention, also, that I am strong believer of the prophecy of "Rainbow warriors" or "Rainbow people". There *is* nothing which separates us all from each other, we are all the same. My issue is in people not respecting the *knowledge* required to perform these ceremonies *properly*. Just because we're all the same, doesn't mean that we all know the same things. We all know different things and it isn't until we learn to learn from each other *respectfully* and accept that we all have different knowledge that we can live in harmony with each other. Again, my opinion.

Where is the boys choir!? This is *exactly* what I have been trying to say.

I DO think that its important to know what you're doing if you're going to celebrate different traditions, like a Blessingway. That's why I think that the respectful and progressive thing to do would be to work together to share knowledge about things like this. Not only would it provide a way for people who are truly interested in understanding and adapting these amazing traditions do so in the *right* way, but it could also help to bridge a gap that has been there for so, so long (for good reason in the beginning, but the idealist part of me hopes that we can move past that horrific time, learn from it, and use that to grow stronger together as a community, appreciating respecting and honoring our differences. That's a "nutshell" version of that aspect of it. I know that there is more to it, but again, thats my idealist hope).