dangerous book for boys - Page 8

[thismama]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Bean doesn't watch a heck of a lot of television, and his favorite movie is The Secret Garden.. has been for a long time. Bean's also a 'leader' on the playground-- in general, he is the child to whom other children try to conform, rather than vice-versa.

I'm not saying that there's no environmental input, but I really believe that there is a great deal that's just inborn.

I think you are grossly underestimating the pervasiveness of gender messages. Our children IME cannot be isolated from them, no matter how hard we try. Your eldest goes to school, right? Bingo. **Everywhere** at school. It doesn't matter if he is more 'leader' than follower or what, the messages surround children and adults, and it is part of our nature as social creatures to read and take in nuances about cultural mores.

There is a really good book, a journal written by a German mother, about all the gender messages she noticed her daughter receiving from birth to age 3. I just did a search for it in my local library's catalogue, as that is where I found it initially, but I had no luck. Anyone know this book? I'm going to try to think of the title.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by alima

When I first bought the book for ds (we're Canadian so got the British edition years ago), I explained to him that it's not The Dangerous Book for Boys, it's the Dangerous Book FOR Boys, because any boy like him would hurt himself pretty quickly with the knowledge therein, but girls would be too smart to do stupid things

Because that's the stereotype we have of girls - they're the "smart" ones, which means they don't go off and have adventures and get wet or lost or break something - that's for the boys to do. When Rain was 7 or so she was paddleboating around a lagoon with a friend and wound up in the water, over where we couldn't see her - I think she was reaching to pick some berries and the boat tipped. Her friend's mother just couldn't stop talking about it - but her younger son fell into the lagoon at least once a week, somehow or other, and it wasn't an issue.

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Bean's also a 'leader' on the playground-- in general, he is the child to whom other children try to conform, rather than vice-versa.

I'm not saying that there's no environmental input, but I really believe that there is a great deal that's just inborn.

When parents see a boy like that on the playground, they say he's a "leader." When they see a girl like that, they say she's "bossy."

Dar

[skaterbabs]

Can someone please explain to me why it is desirable that ANYONE behave in a gender-neutral fashion? And what (or who) dictates "gender-neutrality" anyway?


And why are traditionally girl personality traits thought of as gender-neutral?

[Lillian J]

Just racing through on my way to prepare a potluck dish for tonight, but it occurs to me that before I had a child, I thought I knew a whole lot about being a parent; before I homeschooled, I thought I knew a whole lot about homeschooling - in both cases, I found out I knew very little. I don't think moms of just daughters or moms of just boys can really know all that much about the challenges faced by the children of the opposite sex in today's world. It's different for every generation, and being up close and personal brings some surprises that may not be in tune with our most educated assumptions. - Lillian

[Mom4tot]

Lillian, I know I found that to be true. Having both a girl and a boy (and a boy second!) I realized there were some innate differences. It doesn't mean my son isn't compassionate or sweet or that my dd isn't physical or curious, they are both alll of these things. I have seen differences all along, it's just subtle. Other people attribute different things to birth order. I don't know why it is harmful to play to those differences once in awhile? No one is saying "Boys have to be this way" or "Girls have to be that way". I think it is each parents responsibility to address those messages however they come up.

[momo7]

Originally Posted by BurgundyElephant

What's the girl one going to include? How to braid hair in six different ways? How to write a secret note in code so your crush won't see it? How to skip rope?

Stuff like this makes me *crazy*. No offense to you - I know you said it irritates you as well, but why does it have to be gender specific??? My daughters would like to learn how to play rugby and tie different kinds of knots but there is no way I would purchase a book for them that says on the front it is for boys.

I have the "boy" book for one of my sons...I just saw this book the other night, (the one for girls anyway) and its not like that at all. Pick up a copy and you might be pleasantly surprised. I think "boy" books and "girl" are great. I mean we ARE different. It doesn't mean one book is better than the other simply because they are written for the two different types of human beings.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by thismama

I think you are grossly underestimating the pervasiveness of gender messages. Our children IME cannot be isolated from them, no matter how hard we try. Your eldest goes to school, right? Bingo. **Everywhere** at school. It doesn't matter if he is more 'leader' than follower or what, the messages surround children and adults, and it is part of our nature as social creatures to read and take in nuances about cultural mores.

He's in school, but to say he "goes to school" isn't quite accurate; Bean's enrolled in a cyber charter school. He only sees classmates every two weeks or so, and they're a peculiar subset of children.

[boatbaby]

I just want to say... Karen, I think I love you. You so eloquently stated so many things that have been swirling through my innards since I had a son, but could never put my finger on, let alone any articulate words.

Thank you...!





p.s. I plan on getting both books.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by Dar

When parents see a boy like that on the playground, they say he's a "leader." When they see a girl like that, they say she's "bossy."

Dar

:

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by chfriend

With absolutely no snark intended, can someone please tell me how the goals of raising a girl differ from this?

"Quoting from Michael Gurian's book The Wonder of Boys,
10 Ways to Love A Boy you must provide:

1. nurturing and parents/caregivers
2. a clan or a tribe
3. spiritual life
4. important work
5. mentors and role models
6. to know the rules
7. to learn how to lead, how to follow
8. an adventure, and a best friend to have it with
9. lots of games
10. an important role in life."

I think that's the point - traditionally, boys have not necessarily been raised with all this, especially the "nurturing" part. This list just encourages people to pay a little more attention to some of the more important needs. - Lillian

[Marsupialmom]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Testosterone has been completely mis-represented:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...gewanted=print

Are they really so different?

http://www.boston.com/news/education...e_myth/?page=1

I think these stories that we are telling ourselves about how boys and girls/men and women are different species are based on bad science and don't serve us.

ETA: thismama and I cross-posted

The first peices in part about grown men that is having a malfunction with testastrone in their body.

It is 12 years old it doesn't seem to be aware of other sciences about hormones and the brain. It totally ignores intersexed and homosexual people. Nurture didn't make them the way they are but nature did.

It doesn't even concider how different hormones in-uterus plays a part in brain development. This is before a child is even born. The female/male brain in a child is the same until 8 wks. The female brain is the "default" bain. But one the Y chromosone "kicks" in for development and things like gonads, penis, et develope you can start seeing difference in brains. Yes you see cross over but see differen brain development. Yes nurture plays a part in developement but nature also does. If nature gives the child a preference for a certain amount of eye contact then nurture is going to adapt to it to make a child happy. Nurture can mess with it more but nature does play a role. In cases were the person has had their sex reasigned by a person rather than nature--nature will take over and tell them it is wrong. Research fetus brain gender. It is a rapidly expanding science and new information is coming out all the time.

[PumpkinSeeds]

Do you think the thread on American Girl Magazine will generate such a discussion?

[marilynmama]

I just ordered both books for my girls (and myself!). I think these books are totally cool

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeeds

Do you think the thread on American Girl Magazine will generate such a discussion?

I saw that one show up, and I had to chuckle at the same question.

- Lillian

[sadie_sabot]

Originally Posted by skaterbabs

Can someone please explain to me why it is desirable that ANYONE behave in a gender-neutral fashion?

It depends on what you mean. generally I'm not concerned about people "behaving in a gender neutral fashion," (i'm not entirely sre what that means.*) I'm concerned with the options presented to kids being presented in a gender neutral way, so that kids will make choices (about clothes, activities, etc) based on what they actually like and are interested in, instead of based on what they understand is expected of them because of their anatomy. I certainly think plenty of girls will choose NOT to read or explore the dangerous book for boys simply because of the title, and I guess I really don't buy the arguement that the book would have no appeal for boys if it was called the dangerous book for kids.

Kids seem pretty interested in ctegorizing everything, and then making sure behavior matches category. I'd say that just because kids beave this way does't mean we should cater to it. It's a shame that kids are so concerned about not transgressign their gender categories, and we can help with that by offering a lot of otions that have no gender category, so they can make choices based, again, on who they are and what they like, not which gender category they've been assigned to.

And what (or who) dictates "gender-neutrality" anyway?

I'm confused bythis question.

And why are traditionally girl personality traits thought of as gender-neutral?

If they were, you wouldn't be calling them "traditionally girl personality traits.

[sadie_sabot]

I have a question that will help me with understanding some stuff...

are any of the moms of boys here arguing that boys are getting shortchanged because of girls, and that titling the book "for Boys" is important, are any of you feminist and operating from a feminist framework?

[thismama]

Originally Posted by sadie_sabot

I have a question that will help me with understanding some stuff...

are any of the moms of boys here arguing that boys are getting shortchanged because of girls, and that titling the book "for Boys" is important, are any of you feminist and operating from a feminist framework?

: I would love to know that too.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeeds

Do you think the thread on American Girl Magazine will generate such a discussion?

No, but I totally agree with the previous poster who said that there should be American BOY books as well. Yeah, they have the Dear America series, but the reading level is higher on those books, so there's really no corresponding counterpart. Unfortunately.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by skaterbabs

Can someone please explain to me why it is desirable that ANYONE behave in a gender-neutral fashion? And what (or who) dictates "gender-neutrality" anyway?


And why are traditionally girl personality traits thought of as gender-neutral?

Well, I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, and I'm not the be-all and end-all expert on gender neutrality, but IMO, it's that gender neutrality offers more of a "customizable" personality, if you know what I mean. That way, just because you have a penis, you're not locked into hating dolls and loving penetrative weapons; or just because you have a vagina, you're not locked into liking the color pink and thinking bugs are icky. Yeah, there are inborn gender traits, but just like with lots of other things, I think there's a spectrum of "normal," and that some boys and girls will be born "traditionally" feminine and others "traditionally" masculine. The problem lies for those folks in the middle -- nurturing/sensitive boys and "tomboyish" girls. Under a really sex-segregated kind've society, those folks get labeled "fags" or "dykes." To get along (whether or not they're gay), they have to suppress a significant part of their personality just to fit in. And that's a shame.

Hey, what "traditionally girl personality traits" do you see as being gender-neutral??

[Marsupialmom]

Originally Posted by sadie_sabot

I have a question that will help me with understanding some stuff...

are any of the moms of boys here arguing that boys are getting shortchanged because of girls, and that titling the book "for Boys" is important, are any of you feminist and operating from a feminist framework?

Which feminist framework? There is not one feminist framework to go on. So that is impossible question to answer. If someone would say yes you would argue she could because she believes--xyx. If you read the thread you will see people like me that read all the feminist books took all the women studies to have children that caused us to toss all those therioes out.