dangerous book for boys - Page 9

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by sadie_sabot

I have a question that will help me with understanding some stuff...

are any of the moms of boys here arguing that boys are getting shortchanged because of girls, and that titling the book "for Boys" is important, are any of you feminist and operating from a feminist framework?

I don't really think anyone is arguing that boys are getting shortchanged because of girls - but rather, because of various social and cultural phenomena affecting them both. - Lillian

[CaliMommie]

I am finding this discussion very interesting...still forming my opinion on the matter so I'll post more later.

[Lillian J]

Well, I just peeked, and so far there's no deliberation in the American Girl Magazine thread over whether they're dissing boys - which I don't think there should be, by the way, but it's interesting. Lillian

[PumpkinSeeds]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Well, I just peeked, and so far there's no deliberation in the American Girl Magazine thread over whether they're dissing boys - which I don't think there should be, by the way, but it's interesting. Lillian

Yeah, interesting that.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeeds

Yeah, interesting that.

They're NOT dissing boys. They are teaching girls that their identity should be based on the approval and love of boys, and men. That is my objection to it. Wholly different thing.

[jeca]

Did I miss something, why was this moved to homeschooling? I saw the Daring book for girls at Target a few days back so I stopped and flipped through it. It overlaps a lot. They both talk about campfires and first Aid a long with a score of other hands on activities but the story parts are all female targeted. Queens and rules and great women scientists. They do have some silly girl things like friendships bracelets and how to make a fast ponytail holder with a pencil. It seems like a great book and I will get my DD one when she gets a little older just as i will get DS the other one. I can guarantee you that my DD will read her brother's book also.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by jeca

Did I miss something, why was this moved to homeschooling?

The thread was started here as a suggestion for a good book for homeschoolers.

[fourgrtkidos]

Both look like fun. On my Christmas list!!!

[jeca]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

The thread was started here as a suggestion for a good book for homeschoolers.

Oh, I thought It was started in the book forum, sorry. I still feel like I missed something though because I don't come to the homeschool forum so I know I wouldn't have seen the thread here first. Oh well.
I have the "bossy" little girl in school, she's 6. Her teacher describes her as a "leader" though not bossy at all. She loves pink and loves soccer and makes more goals than the boys on her team. SHe still loves dolls and jewelry yet when a set of twin boys tried to drag her out her jeep last year by her hair she sent them home crying with a bloody nose. I think even at six she understands that you don't have to conform to gender stereotypes but you shouldn't try to put aside things you like just to try to be "gender neutral" either. She does what she likes whether it seems girly or boyish. I guess that's why I can't just say blame it on society, yes they are an influence but in the end your child's personality has to kick in too.

[Queen Gwen]

Originally Posted by thismama

They're NOT dissing boys. They are teaching girls that their identity should be based on the approval and love of boys, and men. That is my objection to it. Wholly different thing.

Is this comment about AG magazine?

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by Dar

When parents see a boy like that on the playground, they say he's a "leader." When they see a girl like that, they say she's "bossy."

I totally disagree-- you're talking about two different sets of behaviors. Yeah, I've seen "bossy" girls but I've also seen "leading" girls-- totally different people. Nobody's ever referred to ChibiChibi as "bossy," just "a real leader." Bean's behavior isn't "bossy," it's very different. Nor is Chibi's.

That said, a boy who does the things which "bossy" girls do is called a "bully," which is probably why you've rarely (if ever) heard of a "bossy little boy."

[elanorh]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

That said, a boy who does the things which "bossy" girls do is called a "bully," which is probably why you've rarely (if ever) heard of a "bossy little boy."

My cousin's little boy is bossy.

Truly, he is. He tries to boss Ina around all the time. She's three years younger than him. He hasn't figured out how to "lead" her yet and she is independent enough she's not going to follow if he doesn't give her a good reason. Especially if it's her house, her toys.

I was the one who posted asking peoples' thoughts on the Dangerous Book for Boys a few months ago (I think?) in the Books forum .... I have enjoyed reading this whole thread.

I had flipped through the book in a book store and the *content* looked great to me, and much fun -- the title seemed sexist and that made me uncomfortable, and I wondered what peoples' thoughts about the entire book were.

I've been debating purchasing the book for my 3 BILs for Christmas. BIL1 has two dds, 1 ds. BIL2 has dd, ds; BIL3 has dd and a ? on the way. My family is pretty egalitarian/anti-gender roles in philosophy, although BIL2 is very strongly gendered and my sister is buying all the "boys will be boys" phraseologies.... BIL1 is pretty gendered too but he helped his dd1 build an engine for her 4-H project. I guess, in sum, it seems that my sisters and their dh's tend towards "girls should be able to do anything boys can do," but still are a bit "boys are different" in their expectations for their sons.

I can buy that yes, boys are different. But BIL1's ds (their youngest) is the most instinctively nurturing child I've seen in a long time .... I think that there is some "nurture" at play in the expectations that they have of him in terms of being a tough boy.

So I'm totally conflicted. I like the projects I saw in the book - I like the idea of my BILs using the books (with dd's and ds's) to do projects together; I think for all 3 BILs that is much the way they related to others (physical projects together), so that could be a great way for them to connect to their dds as much as to their ds's.

BUT, the "For BOYS" part of the title bothers me. The fact that there's a chapter about girls bothers me (what does it say?)? I wish it were the Dangerous Book (tack on KIDS if you want) and then I wouldn't be in this gender-concerned maelstrom of doubt right now.

I think I could explain to my dd and nieces that I don't see any reason that this book is "about boys," in fact I was thinking I'd put a note in the books saying that I'm sure that dds would have as much or more fun as a boy with the book ..... Is that enough? Are the projects in there worth the potential, "If you enjoy this book you're not a 'real' girl" message?

Is there a better book out there which accomplishes the same interactive fun childhood projects without gender-fying them?

[I should note, I think a lot of the differences between boys and girls are culturally built; while I know that biology does come into play, I think nurture does too. And yes, I only have dd's, and only have sisters myself; and yes, my dds play "like boys" based on the descriptions I've read, most of the time - and no, I didn't 'teach' them to play that way.

I think that the 'girls' aisles at toy stores STINK. They're loaded with pink plastic junk, most of which is entirely involved with either dolls, or housework, or decorating themselves. I'd loathe that if it were happening in a boy's aisle too. We're teaching girls that they need their own separate little area which is 'their' domain, and teaching boys that girls' stuff (it's so hideously girlishly pink) is NOT. ick]

ETA:
Also, in terms of girls being told they can do anything/be anything - I agree that at least lipservice is given to this (although quite a few girls figure out that they're *actually* supposed to be decorative ). The problem is, I think that this is even worse for girls .... because the fact of the matter is, there still IS a glass ceiling. The boys who supposedly are struggling along, are not going to get "mommytracked" for having children, and these little girls are likely to face abysmal maternity leaves, lack of support for their decision to parent vs./in addition to working, etc. It stinks that they're being told that there aren't any barriers, when in fact unfortunately there ARE.

Boys may be being told they need to be "more like girls," but in the end, they're getting handed the keys to the kingdom and women are still being shuttled off to the kitchen. Or being told that they can't have the keys to the kingdom AND children (and men sure don't hear that, do they? They hear that they ought to find a good wife TOO).

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by elanorh

ETA:
The problem is, I think that this is even worse for girls .... because the fact of the matter is, there still IS a glass ceiling. The boys who supposedly are struggling along, are not going to get "mommytracked" for having children, and these little girls are likely to face abysmal maternity leaves, lack of support for their decision to parent vs./in addition to working, etc. It stinks that they're being told that there aren't any barriers, when in fact unfortunately there ARE.

Just a note - the book is British where there is a year long maternity leave. Many countries have cultures and family-friendly social constructs that are not reflective of your experience/opinion and I think that needs to be taken into consideration on an international discussion board especially with respect to a book and an author from a country other than the US (we do exist you know :P ).

Originally Posted by elanorh

Boys may be being told they need to be "more like girls," but in the end, they're getting handed the keys to the kingdom and women are still being shuttled off to the kitchen. Or being told that they can't have the keys to the kingdom AND children (and men sure don't hear that, do they? They hear that they ought to find a good wife TOO).

This isn't my experience, nor the experience of women or men that I know and I don't expect it to be the experience of my daughters, especially given that growing gap between the educational achievement of men and women and the changing demographics of the workplace.

[calpurnia]

Originally Posted by thismama

There is a really good book, a journal written by a German mother, about all the gender messages she noticed her daughter receiving from birth to age 3. I just did a search for it in my local library's catalogue, as that is where I found it initially, but I had no luck. Anyone know this book? I'm going to try to think of the title.

It's There's a Good Girl: Gender Stereotyping in the First Three Years of Life: A Diary.

It's an absolutely fascinating book, I thought, based on a mother's observations of her daughter's reactions to the world in her first three years. I think I saw it recommended here actually.

[AngelBee]

:

[thismama]

Originally Posted by Queen Gwen

Is this comment about AG magazine?

Not specifically, I don't know it at all. I'm talking about toys directed at girls in general.

Originally Posted by calpurnia

It's There's a Good Girl: Gender Stereotyping in the First Three Years of Life: A Diary.

It's an absolutely fascinating book, I thought, based on a mother's observations of her daughter's reactions to the world in her first three years. I think I saw it recommended here actually.

Thank you! That is totally it! I might re-read it.

[obiandelismom]

Originally Posted by calpurnia

It's There's a Good Girl: Gender Stereotyping in the First Three Years of Life: A Diary.

It's an absolutely fascinating book, I thought, based on a mother's observations of her daughter's reactions to the world in her first three years. I think I saw it recommended here actually.

Oh I am definitely going to have to get this one. Many of my feminist college friends "decided" after having kids that gender behavior is hard-wired after all. : When I had my two boys, I could not BELIEVE the endless "boy messages" they got - literally from birth!

[Thystle]

I think we TEACH our kids by our actions. And if we as a society avoided every single thing that someone said we could not have/see/do then we would still be in the dark ages.

If we keep info away from either sex over a few "words" WE give that "thing" the real power.


I have three boys and I bought them BOTH books. They like them both. If I had girls I would do the same. Heck *I* am a girl.


I buy my boy "girl" books all the time too. I make no mention of boy or girl ONLY.... I don't give "power" to that way of thinking.





Have you all read the backs of both books?

The boys says:
"Recapture Sunday afternoons and long summer days.

The perfect book for every boy from eight to eighty".



The girls says:
"For every girl with an independant spirit, and a nose for trouble, here is the no-boys-allowed guide to adventure".



Uh which one sounds "more exclusionary"?




In the end if you don't like it... don't read or buy it. Simple free speach -vs- free choice.



Now I am off to let my BOY try to braid my hair.








.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by Thystle

Have you all read the backs of both books?

The boys says:
"Recapture Sunday afternoons and long summer days.

The perfect book for every boy from eight to eighty".



The girls says:
"For every girl with an independant spirit, and a nose for trouble, here is the no-boys-allowed guide to adventure".



Uh which one sounds "more exclusionary"?

Isn't that the point? That defining these activities in terms of gender is misplaced? And free speech extends to talking about why some of us think these sorts of things are bad for the kids.

[Thystle]

My only thing I was pointing out is that many on here were mad at the "boy" version for excluding when in fact the girl version specifically states no boys allowed.




If the books said that a boy/girl would burst into flames if they read the book... I still would not listen.



Never said you all can't talk about it or heck even be mad at the wrongs it is doing.


I just said I wont give it power. I chose to neutralize it and buy both and tell them that these words don't mean anything. Anyone boy or girl, old or young can read it... no one has power over what you read.



And all the arguements over it is ONLY pushing book sales.