My first vaccine "dilemma"- Advice and information needed

[1babysmom]

So...after a call from my MIL just now I find myself facing our first vaccine dilemma. She called to inform us that there is currently a pertussis "outbreak" around our area, particularly about an hour from where we live now, which is VERY near my IL's and my family (and the school district in which DH will start teaching within the next year). It's very early notice, as my FIL is alerting us since he's the medical director/MD for that area, so he's kinda one of the first to know. Because it's a rural area, it's probably going to be very common among the migrant workers, which since it's harvest season, are all over. I know pertussis comes and goes regularly, but with it being in such close proximity to us now and some other specifics to our current situation, I'm questioning some things.

Okay, here is where this is going to get long...I'm going to try to cram as much info into this post as I can...(ANY and ALL help you can give is wonderful because not only am I facing this decision, but my SIL will probably have her unvaxed 8 month old vaccinated since she lives there) ETA- I'm not freaking out about this or anything, but just kind of in a rush for information. I'm totally aware that I have time to decide and make a decision we're comfortable with. But I'm not really freaked out or scared or anything, so sorry if I come across that way.

DD has had NO vax's, and honestly, GIVING her any vaccines really freaks me out more than NOT giving her any. Normally I'd consider DD not at risk as we live in the city an hour away now and she's home with me all day, very healthy, still BF, etc. BUT, we spend EVERY weekend at my parents house because DH works out there as an EMT (which presents it's own risk, and considering he sees pertussis patients when there's NOT an outbreak, he'll undoubtedly see a bunch now). The thing is, my dad is a farmer, and he has MANY migrant worker employees. So we'd be in almost "indirect-direct" contact, if that makes sense.

Now, pertussis isn't something I'm REALLY afraid of, especially since DD is healthy (and from what I understand, the majority of the time in healthy children pertussis is just something that requires a LOT of TLC over a fairly long period of time)...but she IS young (20 months) and I know that although she's not an infant and in the highest risk category, she is in the highER risk. (and I also find myself doubting my ability to confidently care for her if she does get it...I suppose that's the "fear" component setting in?) Also, I'm pregnant...and baby #2 will be here next spring. I'm not sure how that affects MY risk level, or the baby's, but I can't imagine that it'd be all fine and dandy if I spent every day for 1-3 months treating DD for pertussis. I have had the vaccine when I was young, but from my research that doesn't mean much anymore since they're regularly finding resistance/mutation among pertussis cases. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Also, I'm fully aware of the time it takes to acquire "full immunity" (although I don't feel like that's accurate since it's a vaccine and I'm not convinced that it provides even that) from the pertussis vax is about 6 months, after the first series has been completed. How much immunity, if any, is provided after the first and then the second shot? (this is good info I can share with MIL tonight, because I mentioned that it could take up to 6 months before DD and my SIL's baby are even really protected, and she wasn't convinced, saying that surely the first and second shots provide enough immunity). Also, DH was wondering if having the shots a month or two apart (however far they're supposed to be) actually puts them MORE at risk by lowering their natural immune systems while the shot messes with their bodies??

Lastly, I'm NOT cool with the components of the pertussis vax. While you can get DT and Td, you CAN'T get DTaP separated for pertussis, correct? So she'd be getting injected with one of what I consider to be the nastiest shots available. And a combination one, which I swore we wouldn't get (not knowing we'd ever be in this situation).

I'm just finding myself to be so "anti-vax" at this point that I'm not sure I can make a wise, educated decision on my own about this. I didn't really think we'd ever face this type of thing, at least while DD is so young AND I'm pregnant...but here we are and I'm not sure where I stand or what I should do. I'm not sure what the "pros and cons" of my situation are at this point (since I'm not sure where I stand). Although I will admit that I take comfort in the fact that if we DO choose to get the vaccine, DD is nearing 2 years old and so while her body is still so young and tiny, it's not nearly as much as it was if I were to have given her shots on schedule.

I'm going to be calling DD's doctor, an MD specializing in natural/herbal medicine and who doesn't vax (although she'll educate you and if you want them she sends you to the health dept. for them) to see what her advice would be. But for the time being, I knew I could get some helpful advice here.

[ktbug]

Where, exactly, did your mother-in-law get the information about there being a pertussis outbreak?

And, possibly a related question, possibly not - is your MIL on board with this no-shots thing?

Calm down. You seem like you've done a lot of work to inform yourself and make your own decisions about your family's health. That shouldn't change just because MIL heard a scary story on the local news or at the water cooler. (Please forgive me for being flippant; those are merely assumptions, and please correct them if they're wrong).

Anyway, you absolutely have the ability to be rational about this. Don't let someone else's panic sway you into doing something you can't undo.

If I were you, I'd call the county health department where this outbreak is supposed to be going on, to see if I could get the stats from the horse's mouth about reported cases and circulation. I think that'd be my first step.

Something you should remember, though, is that there's always a big bad outbreak somewhere. Pertussis is endemic in the adult population, which means it's always "going around". Are you going to panic like this every time you take your kid to the park and someone coughs? That was meant in the kindest way possible - I'm not saying you shouldn't be careful. But common sense and good hygiene go a long way, along with nutrition, rest, and information.

Good luck, mama!

ETA: I just re-read your post, and it jumped out at me that your dd is 2. I'm not saying whooping cough is a big old cakewalk for anyone, but the likelihood of it producing life-threatening complications in otherwise healthy children over a year old is pretty low.

Also, it really does sound like your mother-in-law is trying to scare you. Have you given her any reading?

[1babysmom]

Originally Posted by ktbug

Where, exactly, did your mother-in-law get the information about there being a pertussis outbreak?

And, possibly a related question, possibly not - is your MIL on board with this no-shots thing?

I'm not panicking! LOL Sorry if it sounded like that. I'm just trying to process a lot of information quickly because we're seeing my MIL tonight and I know she'll bring it up and I'd like to have information at hand. And I'd just like to hear if maybe considering the vax MIGHT be wise, but I feel much more researched on the non-vax side so I feel a little unbalanced. LOL

I realize pertussis goes around on a regular basis, but this is the first time it's bee so close to us and our families (who are VERY close, we're with them at least a couple times a week despite living an hour away).

Like I said, my MIL called to inform us that my FIL (who is the medical director/ER & FP MD at the hospital there and in the area) wants us to know about the outbreak. Since he's one of the first to become aware of these things (just because of his position) it could be very early, but I'm not sure how many cases there have been. The actual town is about a 10-15 min. drive from my IL's town, and about 30 min. from my parents, but again, it's a rural area so everything and everyone sorta "blend". (and it's in another OR county as well)

My MIL is actually VERY supportive of not vaxing. She was the first one to get me thinking about it before DD was born, and she's supported my SIL, who lives with them and doesn't vax her baby. But she DOES get wrapped up emotionally in some things, however, she does have plenty of her own medical experience as an RN and does her own research as well. So it's hard to say where she's standing when she recommends the vax (although she did leave the conversation having said, "At least just think about it", not in a pushy way or anything.

[xmasbaby7]

I agree that it would be great if you can wind down, since it sounds like it is really scaring you.

The real question to ask your MD is, how would the two of you treat pretussis if your dd got it or if your dh got it? Go through the threads of the people here who have experience with it first hand and how they handled it.

Let that soak in on a night's sleep and see what the morning brings, IYKWIM.

Good luck!

I have been around pertussis outbreaks a ton, and my boss had it twice in a year while I was pregnant, so it was always on my radar of fear in the beginning, too. I do understand your emotions.

[alegna]

Eh. Pertussis is ALWAYS around. Really. But it's not that easy to catch. Do any of those family members have a questionable cough? If not, I wouldn't worry a bit.

-Angela

[1babysmom]

Originally Posted by xmasbaby7

I agree that it would be great if you can wind down, since it sounds like it is really scaring you.

Again, I'm not so much scared as I am just anxious for information. DH is very supportive of our non-vax decision but in times like this his "medical" side kicks in, my FIL thinks we need to vax, not sure about my MIL, and I know that MY family will be very "concerned" about this too...so it's kinda making me nervous to deal with all of that as well.

I think also because I'm pregnant is what scares me...like I said, what kind of risk DOES it put me at if I'm treating DD for pertussis while in my 2nd/3rd trimester?? And FWIW, I get nervous about DD coming down with ANYTHING while I'm pg, because I always fear myself getting sick at the same time (like just a cold...I physically do not handle being sick very well while trying to take care of DD too).

Also, DOES anyone know how much immunity just the first and second shots in the series provide? I'd like to have that info for MIL tonight if possible. I can't find it in any of my vax books.

[ktbug]

OK, sorry, I didn't read carefully.

That really is a good point xmasbaby brought up, that you should discuss with your doctor what course of action you would take if dd did happen to come down with WC.

I'll suggest to you that very few posters here would tell you you that starting the DTaP series now would be wise or would help you at all. Challenge your mil's assertion that the first two shots would be of any help at all; ask her why she thinks that, where she read it, etc. Then, since you said she's pretty OK with not getting shots, she must have some idea of what the negative aspects of vaccination are, right? Since she can't prove her point about the first two shots conferring any kind of working immunity, and you CAN cite text that says the whole series is needed to confer immunity (I think even the product insert says that), why shoot dd up with something you guys both have a problem with, just on the off-chance that she'll be exposed AND get sick?

Sorry, I'm not making any sense. But I apologize if I read you wrong the first time.

Anyway, I think you have the facts on your side. And I don't think anyone here will be comfortable telling you to start the DTaP because of an outbreak. Crosspost in Selective/Delayed and it might be different. But as far as I can tell, it wouldn't do you any good to start getting the series now.

[CCChanel]

I'm not so sure I believe in all this "pertusis outbreak" stuff.

Like Alegna states...it's always been around.

I wouldn't sweat it. Just give her some Vit C ... some good stuff that contains sodium ascorbate...keep up the bf'ing... get loads of sleep and stay healthy.

I wouldn't vax.

[1babysmom]

Originally Posted by alegna

Eh. Pertussis is ALWAYS around. Really. But it's not that easy to catch. Do any of those family members have a questionable cough? If not, I wouldn't worry a bit.

-Angela

Well no, not yet at least, since it's still fairly early.

[1babysmom]

Originally Posted by CCChanel

I wouldn't sweat it. Just give her some Vit C ... some good stuff that contains sodium ascorbate...keep up the bf'ing... get loads of sleep and stay healthy.

LOL, funny that you mention that as I wonder if I'm on the verge of losing my milk (pregnancy) and DD has NOT been sleeping well lately (which in turn means none of us have). But we do take Emergen-C and zinc daily...only because DD's been constantly playing with sick kiddos (grrr) and *I* don't want to get sick! LOL

[1babysmom]

Originally Posted by ktbug

But as far as I can tell, it wouldn't do you any good to start getting the series now.

Yeah, that's what I kinda figured and was hoping I'd be backed up (although at the same time I'd hope that if anyone DID see us at a certain risk they'd mention considering the vax, which is precisely why I'm posting ).

So what is everyone's take on my SIL's 8 month old?? The same for her, too? I'm not the one to make decisions for them and I'm sure they'll end up getting the shots (as they're talking to their ped, too, but she's a mainstream ped : so what else is she going to say!?!), but I'd like to give them what I can.

[ktbug]

Lessseee ....

Originally Posted by AAP Policy Statement on Pertussis Prevention

Despite universal immunization of children with multiple doses of pediatric diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis (DTaP) vaccine, pertussis remains endemic with a steady increase in the number of reported cases. Two peaks in the incidence of pertussis occur in pediatric patients: infants younger than 6 months of age who are inadequately protected by the current immunization schedule and adolescents 11 through 18 years of age whose vaccine-induced immunity has waned.

That's the very pro-vax American Academy of Pediatrics admitting that infants under 6 months who have only received the two DTaPs that their (pretty aggressive) schedule recommends up to that point are one of the main sources of the pertussis bug continuing to be in circulation. That suggests to me that even these pro-vax doctors know that only 2 shots doesn't prevent anyone from catching or passing along WC.

There's more, try scholar.google.com and search "incomplete DTaP series" or something along those lines.

[CCChanel]

Make sure your C has SA in it!

And I'm not sure what will help with supply when you are pg... but oatmeal and Mother's Milk tea has worked for me!

[1babysmom]

Thank you! Printing that off right now....

[1babysmom]

So what do you think about what DH said? Would it be safe to say that the compromised immunity during/because of the first 2 shots might make them MORE succesptible to getting it during that time??

[rabrog]

DD is exposed every year. Our church has a daycare connected to it and she's in there all the time for Sunday School, playing with the same toys, etc. as the sick kids. She was exposed directly when she was 2 months old (not intentionally - I knew as soon as I heard the other child cough what it was and we high tailed it out of there!) She's never gotten it, nothing even resembling it.

You're smart to keep on top of it being in the area, however the pertussis vax is one of the more useless vax out there. Definitely not worth getting it now. Just be vigilant about when it hits your area, keep hands washed, etc.

Jenn

[1babysmom]

Originally Posted by rabrog

DD is exposed every year. Our church has a daycare connected to it and she's in there all the time for Sunday School, playing with the same toys, etc. as the sick kids. She was exposed directly when she was 2 months old (not intentionally - I knew as soon as I heard the other child cough what it was and we high tailed it out of there!) She's never gotten it, nothing even resembling it.

You're smart to keep on top of it being in the area, however the pertussis vax is one of the more useless vax out there. Definitely not worth getting it now. Just be vigilant about when it hits your area, keep hands washed, etc.

Jenn

Good to know! Can pertussis be asymptomatic ever? If so, do you think your DD could be immune to it having been exposed regularly?

[1babysmom]

Oh, I just found this...
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...DTaP-DT-Td.htm

We have had several cases of pertussis in our county. Most of these cases have been in very young children under one year of age who have had only one or two doses of DTaP. How much protection does one or two doses offer?

There isn’t much data on the efficacy and protection from one or two doses of DTaP. Pertussis vaccine trials are difficult to do. Virtually everyone who has looked at this issue uses 3 doses as the benchmark. We know that with 3 doses efficacy is 80%-85%. We know that two doses are better than one, and one dose is better than none. But I don’t know of any data that would give us a feeling of how well one or two doses would protect against pertussis. (2/20/03) More Information

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by 1babysmom

Well no, not yet at least, since it's still fairly early.

No. Pertussis is always around. Always has been and most likely always will be. The vaccine does little or nothing except present problems. I would not vaccinate either child.


Instead I would have lots of freshly picked berries in my freezer and plenty of SA on hand. Both are super for whooping cough.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by 1babysmom

So what do you think about what DH said? Would it be safe to say that the compromised immunity during/because of the first 2 shots might make them MORE succesptible to getting it during that time??

I would say that there is a chance of that, yes. Thing is that it has never been researched.

-Angela