DH wants to use punishment, but I know it won't work!

[windpowered]

I'm new to the GD forum, so forgive me if there is some recent thread about this very thing.

My DD is 5 1/2. She has always been spirited, independent, stubborn...whatever the label, she can be a handful. Recently she is doing things that we have explicitly asked her not to do. Like right after we say, "please don't xyz", then she does xyz.

My DH thinks that we need to punish her. He knows I am not really on board with the punishment approach, I tend to be much more comfortable and adept with using natural consequences. But I think he wants to feel like he isn't the lone "disciplinarian". So he asked me to come up with some appropriate punishment for when she is willfully disobeying us. I squirmed, but finally suggested not allowing her to watch any TV the next day. I think he could tell from my voice and body language that I wasn't thrilled with this approach.

So, I need alternatives! And I need some reading material, or something to share with DH to help him to see that punishment is not going to get us where we want to be as a family.

DH had a stormy childhood, and discipline was a big part of that. His parents weren't abusive, but they used punishment as their main tool. My DH recalls making his parents exasperated because they had used every punishment they could think of, taken away every privilege he had, and he still wouldn't do what they wanted. He remembers this pain. So, why does he want to repeat it in our family? : And DD is just like DH was as a child, or so his mom tells me. They have very similar personalities.

Thanks for any advice, reading suggestions, etc.

~Diane

[WuWei]

Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" DVD. Cheaper than family counseling. http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-.../dp/B000BBAA3U


'Unconditional Parenting'
Why Time Outs And Praises Don't Work In The Long Run
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in683402.shtml


Here is an interview with the author:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/upinterview.htm

Here is his web site. http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.html

Your husband will agree with no punishments after watching this DVD.

Another option is "Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles" or "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen".




Pat

[happeeevraftr]

100% back the Alfie Kohn rec's.

Also thought I'd add you could bring up that willful disobedience can definitely be a good thing! Not something you want to stamp out. Think of teenage years. Peer pressure. There are definitely going to be times when we want our kids to be downright defiant! We just need to also help them engage in/learn cooperation. That's what you want--not mindless compliance.

But as I'm trying to figure out myself, seeking cooperation means eliminating demands/commands. No one feels cooperative when they're hearing demands.

It's a whole different approach than the punishment model, but if you're uncomfortable with using punishment and other coercive measures, you've got to have something else or your just going to feel defeated all the time

Good luck with the husband. I'm having my own battle with mine right now :

[maya44]

I would recomend The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. It is much more mainstream than Alfie Kohn.


And it tend to appeal a lot more to men who are see the need for "punishment" which it does not advocate at all.

But it is much less "touchy feely" than Unconditional Parenting. It is more matter of fact and it is less about negotiating and it is NOT consensual living.

My dh would no more follow AK than he would a martian. He thinks his theories are "nutso". (Escpecially those he has written about adults and rewards).

But he has no problem with the no punishment, no reward system of Wolf.


I think it is the best stepping stone between mainstream punishment and the most AP form of GD.

[EvansMomma]

You know, I love Alfie Kohn. I joke with DH that "Unconditional Parenting" is my unofficial parenting bible.

HOWEVER...I'd just like to say that when I read UP, a lot of it was very hard to digest and I was reading it WILLINGLY and WANTED to take this approach to parenting. SO I think it might just be too much to give it to someone who is NOT particularly on board just yet.

I think there are more 'mainstream-friendly' books that carry the same idea as Alfie. I really enjoyed Kids Are Worth It by Barbara Coloroso and felt it was worded a bit less extreme than UP. My husband really enjoyed it, as did my Mother - neither of whom were particularly overjoyed with the idea of GD before that.

[anne+arun]

Originally Posted by EvansMomma

HOWEVER...I'd just like to say that when I read UP, a lot of it was very hard to digest and I was reading it WILLINGLY and WANTED to take this approach to parenting. SO I think it might just be too much to give it to someone who is NOT particularly on board just yet.

Thats funny because i read UP early in my parenting changes... i guess i too was willing and conscious of making shifts – but i found him reasonably mainstream and that he appealed to my intellectual mind with constant references to studies and attempts to academically back up what he was saying.

These days i often recommend Pam Leo's Connected Parenting for people who want to make shifts and Alfie Kohn's UP for people who are with people who want to make shifts

all the best
arun

-------------------
http://www.theparentingpit.com

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by maya44

My dh would no more follow AK than he would a martian. He thinks his theories are "nutso". (Especially those he has written about adults and rewards).

Maya, did your husband read (or view) Punished By Rewards or Unconditional Parenting, himself, before making his conclusion? They are both highly researched and well documented and well respected. I'm not sure what "theories" he finds "nutso".


Pat

[EvansMomma]

Originally Posted by anne+arun

Thats funny because i read UP early in my parenting changes... i guess i too was willing and conscious of making shifts – but i found him reasonably mainstream and that he appealed to my intellectual mind with constant references to studies and attempts to academically back up what he was saying.

These days i often recommend Pam Leo's Connected Parenting for people who want to make shifts and Alfie Kohn's UP for people who are with people who want to make shifts

all the best
arun

-------------------
http://www.theparentingpit.com

What I meant by "hard to digest" was that it's a very radically different way of thinking about parenting and children than how I was raised to think. It took a lot for me to make these changes, and I don't think that the book would've went over as well if I was not entirely convinced of the GD way of thinking, KWIM?

[happeeevraftr]

I don't know, Evan'sMomma, UP was immediately convincing to me and I began reading it with the assumption I would think it was all hogwash, having seen it recommended from people like Pat here, who were putting for such radical ideas like that children should have choice over their lives!

I liked it for the same reasons mentioned: the logic just made sense and I was already familiar with some of the research from my degree in marriage, family, and human development. His reasoning was sound and he wasn't preachy at all and certainly didn't come across as way radical out there.

(Naomi Aldort, on the other hand, was much more flowery-hippy-like and even though I absolutely love her book and the ideas in it help me tremendously every day, if I had picked it up before reading Kohn, I would have branded her a permissive crazy loon and never taken a second glance at this style of parenting!)

Also, my first child was only barely 2 when I read UP, so we hadn't really had any "discipline" issues yet. Maybe that made me more willing. I think it'd be much harder to adjust your beliefs and your parenting approach after you've been doing things another way for several years.

[EvansMomma]

Originally Posted by happeeevraftr

I don't know, Evan'sMomma, UP was immediately convincing to me and I began reading it with the assumption I would think it was all hogwash, having seen it recommended from people like Pat here, who were putting for such radical ideas like that children should have choice over their lives!

I think I'm just not wording myself properly here then.
It was convincing, but what was hard was putting aside everything that was taught to me previously, and what our society is STILL teaching us, in regards to how we should view/interact with children.
I was thrilled with the book. I'd read a page, put the book down and go tearing into DH's computer room to excitedly tell him how fantabulous the book was.

But I tried to get DH to read it, and at the time he was still in the "parent = boss of all things" mentality and he fought it a bit. Over time, mostly recently, he's really opened up to learning about GD and is becoming quite the patient father actually.

However, he immediately agreed with what B.COloroso says in KAWI - and I tried to tell him it was essentially the same as UP...lol but he fought it anyway...but then again he's the type who finds too much stats and research "dry" reading. Whereas I loved that UP was FULL of backing research, because I'm a nerd that way.

I guess different ways of explanation will appeal to different people, that's all I'm sayin. So UP may NOT be the perfect book for the OPs husband, but it may well be. KWIM?

[WuWei]

Actually, my recommendation is for the Unconditional Parenting DVD for reluctant husbands. I believe that Alfie Kohn is a very articulate, persuasive and authoritative speaker.


Pat

[EvansMomma]

The DVD rocks.
DH was happy to watch that.
AK is a great speaker...even DH said "the movie's better than the book this time"...LOL

[maya44]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Maya, did your husband read (or view) Punished By Rewards or Unconditional Parenting, himself, before making his conclusion? They are both highly researched and well documented and well respected. I'm not sure what "theories" he finds "nutso".


Pat

Yes he read them both. He thinks the guy is off his rocker with respect to the no praise thing. And, more importantly to him, with respect to no rewards in the non-personal business situation like in this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...781619-5507964.

DH is a CFO and a B-school Prof and picked apart his reserach on the above referenced book finding it failed to prove any of its theories.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by maya44

DH is a CFO and a B-school Prof and picked apart his research on the above referenced book finding it failed to prove any of its theories.

From a quick google, I found that Professor J. Scott Armstrong, of the University of Pennsylvania, Wharton, (http://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/p.../armstrong.cfm) with published papers on survey research, educational methods, applied statistics, social responsibility, strategic planning, and scientific peer review wrote the following review of the above mentioned book.

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/view...rketing_papers

ABSTRACT:

Kohn's No Contest reviews empirical research on competition. In fact, much work has been done to determine whether competition is better than cooperation and some work has compared competition with doing the best for oneself. The research comes from many fields, but primarily from education, sports, the performing arts,and psychology. The results have been consistent, clear-cut, and surprising: competition typically results in less creativity, poorer performance, and reduced satisfaction.
http://repository.upenn.edu/marketing_papers/94/






Pat

[maya44]

Originally Posted by WuWei

From a quick google, I found that Professor J. Scott Armstrong, of the University of Pennsylvania, Wharton, (http://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/p.../armstrong.cfm) with published papers on survey research, educational methods, applied statistics, social responsibility, strategic planning, and scientific peer review wrote the following review of the above mentioned book.

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/view...rketing_papers

ABSTRACT:

Kohn's No Contest reviews empirical research on competition. In fact, much work has been done to determine whether competition is better than cooperation and some work has compared competition with doing the best for oneself. The research comes from many fields, but primarily from education, sports, the performing arts,and psychology. The results have been consistent, clear-cut, and surprising: competition typically results in less creativity, poorer performance, and reduced satisfaction.
http://repository.upenn.edu/marketing_papers/94/






Pat

You understand you are quotinng from Kohn's words, not the peer review author's right?

In any event, my Dh was very aware of this peer review critique. If you read it in whole you can see the many errors/failures in AK's work found by even the author of that review.

My dh's own critique found that the failure to support the small to large entity comparision, which was mentioned in this review to be a fatal flaw in Kohn's work. Simply stating that more reserach would need to bre done was not an answer from an author claiming that his reserach proved why competition was bad in the corporate setting.

Moreover, Dh also found the use of the discredited study by Kohn extremely problematic.

The author of this peer review recognizes these problems but does not see it as the over reaching problem my dh's team did.

[windpowered]

thanks so much!

I appreciate the book/DVD referrals. I especially appreciate the feedback on which ones are full of research references, because my DH is really into that.

I got up the hutzpa to tell my DH tonight that I am not really on board with the idea of punishment. The blank look on his face was priceless. I quickly added that I AM in favor of discipline, but I am thinking that punishment might not be the best way to discipline. He definitely thought I had taken leave of my senses.

I mentioned to him that it seemed that punishment had not worked for him as a child. He said that the problem was how it was done. His dad went from considering something a minor infraction, to laying down THE LAW, very quickly. So, for now, he sees no problem with punishment as a concept, just in how it's delivered. I am seeing a crack in the armor.

It sounds like "The Secret of Parenting" or "Kids are Worth It" are good picks for us. Are either of these books the one with the three types of disciplinarians...brickwall, jellyfish, and ???...well, I guess I better read it, since I can't remember the GOOD kind.

And I am really enjoying the discussion of AK. I am ready to read his stuff, but not sure DH is there yet.

~Diane

[SunRayeMomi]

AK was in town recently and I desperately wanted to take DH but he works evenings Good luck with your DH - maybe AK will be speaking near you soon!

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by maya44

You understand you are quotinng from Kohn's words, not the peer review author's right?

Actually, I believe that you are mistaken. The review is by J. Scott Armstrong. Please review; the title and contents are credited to him. (paragraph 6)

In any event, my Dh was very aware of this peer review critique. If you read it in whole you can see the many errors/failures in AK's work found by even the author of that review.

Actually, I have read the whole paper. It notates a few minor, normal percentage of citation errors. Please see the 10th paragraph for detailed explanation.

My dh's own critique found that the failure to support the small to large entity comparision, which was mentioned in this review to be a fatal flaw in Kohn's work. Simply stating that more reserach would need to bre done was not an answer from an author claiming that his reserach proved why competition was bad in the corporate setting.

The only "discredited" study was referenced as "a minor point in Kohn's analysis". (paragraph 9) Perhaps, you are reading some other paper?

Moreover, Dh also found the use of the discredited study by Kohn extremely problematic.

The author of this peer review recognizes these problems but does not see it as the over reaching problem my dh's team did.

Many others disagree with your husband's unpublished review of merely one of many well researched, well documented, and well respected books of Alfie Kohn's.

ETA: paragraph citation for first refutation.


Pat

[maya44]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Actually, I believe that you are mistaken. The review is by J. Scott Armstrong. Please review; the title and contents are credited to him. (paragraph 6)

Actually, I have read the whole paper. It notates a few minor, normal percentage of citation errors. Please see the 10th paragraph for detailed explanation.

The only "discredited" study was referenced as "a minor point in Kohn's analysis". (paragraph 9) Perhaps, you are reading some other paper?

Many others disagree with your husband's unpublished review of merely one of many well researched, well documented, and well respected books of Alfie Kohn's.

ETA: paragraph citation for first refutation.


Pat

I am not debating with you. I am merely pointing out in my originial post that Kohns anti-capatilist agenda does NOT sit well with many people, especially traditional men. There may be better authors for to point such a man into the right direction of GD.

But no I am not reading some other study paper whatever.

The fact that as the author said "Some of Kohn's conclusions go beyond the evidence. For example he seems to generalize from studies of small groups to large organizations and nations." was in my DH's teams view a MAJOR flaw in Kohn's work that could not be overcome by a passing reference to the need for "more reserach". The statment about regulation in the marketplace that the study author refers to as simply "incorrect" was the kind of thing that my DH's team found to be most credibility destroying. They were reviewing this from an economics perspective rather than a merely marketing one, and these flaws are critical to the problems economists find in Kohn's work.