A ? for experienced GDers. . .

[Maggirayne]

I had the thought and want to tell my parents, who were not GD, even my dad who is more on board with me says "some kids need spanking."

So a couple of responses I've thought of are "I can't imagine Jesus spanking a child," and to my dad's saying, "So what you're saying is some kids want to be hit? Spanking is just an adult hitting a kid and the kid can't do anything back."

What is a response when people say that's the only way to get through to a kid? I kinda thought that, but realized that was basically what my second response says.

How do you respond to things like that?

[ktbug]

I tend NOT to respond to things like that. I know they're family, but I shake my head and say, "That's just not what we're doing. I couldn't ever hit my child, and I'll never allow anyone else to, either." I will reiterate that it's not up for discussion, that back when I was coming up and my parents were coming up, people thought that spanking was a good way to teach children to behave, but we know better now, and we're not doing it, so don't mention it again. Leave the impression that your mind isn't going to be changed, and don't let the discussion go on for too long. You aren't going to change their mind any more than they'll change yours, so it's a pretty pointless discussion that will only lead to conflict, resentment, and hurt feelings. A simple "that's not the way we're going with dc" and "It's not debatable to us" is all that is needed, IMO. There are much more pleasant things to talk about with family than spanking children.

[peacelovingmama]

One of my favorite (and I think pretty persuasive) arguments is to discuss the millions of children living in countries where children are already protected from hitting. Most people don't want to argue that there is something unique about American (or whatever country they live in) children that they require pain and humiliation to learn.

[rmzbm]

Shock, recoil, and a "How dare you suggest I abuse my child?" usually shuts people up. Beyond that I don't engage in such discussions.

[WannabeaFarmer]

Yea we usually use the "its not the way we do things" reply. DP thought that spanking was the way cause he is not used to disciplining a toddler(he had a different situation with his first kiddo)so we had to outline a system and then he realized that spanking really isnt the way and we are on board to help guide the rest of the family towards what we do.
I am really happy that DP's mother is really on board. She is a timeout person and I would rather that than spanking.(even thought those are her house rules-not ours they work for her)
I would just be strong in your beliefs and let the person know that this is what you are doing to raise your child and thats that.

[Maggirayne]

DH isn't convinced either, altho' he was minimally spanked.

I'm just developing my parenting philosophy and discovering GD. Of course, I was anti-spanking when I ws a kid, wrote an essay for school, "When I'm a Mother, I Will not Spank" which ticked my mom off. My folks raised me as a Continuum Concept baby as much as they could with their backgrounds, and we do have a lot of good discussion, they like what i'm doing, or at least respect the choices I'm making.

But I feel very much like I don't know what I'm talking about since my first child is only 6 mo, YKWIM? I feel like they think, "She's never had to deal with _____, and doesn't know what it's really like."

[dulce de leche]

Maggirayne, I noticed that you mentioned how Jesus would treat children. Dh and I wrote a letter awhile back on a Christian perspective against spanking. If you are interested, I would be happy to PM it to you or repost it.

[sleepymamaoftwo]

Originally Posted by rmzbm

Shock, recoil, and a "How dare you suggest I abuse my child?" usually shuts people up. Beyond that I don't engage in such discussions.

I love that answer. It will get better as they age also because your relatives will begin to see that it actually does work or at least that the children are no different than theirs.

[Maggirayne]

dulce_de_leche, thank you so much, that was the letter to your pastor, I loved it! I happened to be reading on this forum and saw it. I emailed it to my dad, along with some of my thoughts on their discipline of me, not attacking, but saying, it could have been better and WAY more effective, but my mom was just offended, Your letter was so coherent and non-aggressive while very clear.

I want to keep bringing things up with them gently, that's the whole point of GD, to improve and keep therelationships whole and growing, and saying, "How dare you suggest I abuse my child?" would be taken as an attack on their parenting choices and would not keep communication open.

Peacelovingmama, are there countries that don't use spanking? I don't really know much. I hadn't realized it was an 'American' thing.

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by Maggirayne

Peacelovingmama, are there countries that don't use spanking? I don't really know much. I hadn't realized it was an 'American' thing.

Yes, there are many countries that have made it illegal to hit young people. I know that Sweden has protected its children since the 1970s and many other countries have followed suit. Off the top of my head, I recall that Italy, Germany, Denmark, Israel, Latvia, Greece (the most recent, I think), Finland, and Norway have such laws.

I know there are several others. I don't think you "don't really know much" -- we tend not to talk about these laws so much here and I think most people are unaware of them.

In fact, until a California legislator proposed such a law, I never heard such legislation discussed (except on MDC or where I initiated such a discussion). I didn't know about them until I lived in Scandinavia and experienced a society firsthand that recognizes the child's basic right to live free of violence. It is one of my hopes that the U.S. one day does the same.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by peacelovingmama

Yes, there are many countries that have made it illegal to hit young people. I know that Sweden has protected its children since the 1970s and many other countries have followed suit. Off the top of my head, I recall that Italy, Germany, Denmark, Israel, Latvia, Greece (the most recent, I think), Finland, and Norway have such laws.

I know this is OT, but I just cannot not react. Anyone who has lived in Italy can attest that Italians, in their vast majority, do spank and do not even know it is illegal to do so. A law is a good thing, of course. Yet, the only thing to change the fact of spanking is through dialogue, dialogue, only dialogue...

Originally Posted by rmzbm

Shock, recoil, and a "How dare you suggest I abuse my child?" usually shuts people up. Beyond that I don't engage in such discussions.

Personally, I think that before laying it down on "people" how you raise your kid - it is important to really listen and try to understand. Why do they spank? What is their situation? Clearly, I will do this when I have a close realtionship to someone or al least there is the time and disposition for some talk. In all other occasions "Oh I see. Can you pass me the salt please? Isn't this sauce delicious" is a great response also. But we are not talking "people" here, we are talking about the OP's own parents...

[Terrilein]

For me spanking is just not an issue open to discussion. I just say "We don't spank. Period." If I start to justify my decisions as a parent, then I'm just giving others the opportunity to criticize every aspect of my parenting. An open, fair discussion of the pros/cons of my parenting style is fine if possible (meaning my parenting decisions are respected not questioned), but I won't willingly walk into a trap.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by Terrilein

For me spanking is just not an issue open to discussion. I just say "We don't spank. Period." If I start to justify my decisions as a parent, then I'm just giving others the opportunity to criticize every aspect of my parenting. An open, fair discussion of the pros/cons of my parenting style is fine if possible (meaning my parenting decisions are respected not questioned), but I won't willingly walk into a trap.

I totally agree about "not willingly walk into a trap": that's what my "isn't this sauce delicious? Can you pass me the dip sauce please" phrase is really all about. Being open for discussion, for me, does not mean I am open for change. I am not going to spank ever, but I am open to discussing spanking, if there is time and will for that, and I am willing to really listen to a parent and try to help.

[Maggirayne]

I've been sharing stuff with my mom that I've been reading and had a really great conversation with her about GD this last week. Yay! She's not convicned, but she's listening and thinking things over. She was raised very, very strictly. I think her dad would have made Ezzo look like Alfie Kohn, okay, not quite, but he spanked her little sister, 3rd child, for chewing her nails, etc. So she was way radical from that--for her. They did want to raise me as a Continuum Concept baby, and they never CIOed.

[gaialice]

That's so awesome Maggirayne! It is not easy to look at things from the perspective of our parents, and to have a conversation about parenting with them even though we do not want to parent the same as they did. Understanding what they went through, feeling grateful for what they did although they made mistakes, I think that is key to be even better parents ourselves... Thanks for sharing!

[Arduinna]

I don't engage in that discussion either. We don't hit, period. Hitting is not an acceptable way to deal with problems. I had someone try and use that some kids just need to be hit thing with me a few months ago, adding on their excuse that it teaches "respect". I was totally shocked and looked at them like they were nuts and said " you don't actually think you teach a child respect by hitting do you?". They said yes :

[Fuamami]

I would totally engage in the discussion, but my family loves to argue.

I think the problem with saying that it's the only way to get through to "some" kids, is that you have to define what "getting through" to them is. If you mean teaching them to fear you, then it would probably work. But if you don't want your kids to fear you, I think that those kids who would suffer the most by being spanked.

My dh has often said about my dd, "I'm glad we don't spank, because we would have to beat the crap out of her every day." Which is true. She refused to be cowed, and I shudder to think what our relationship would be like if I thought it was necessary to intimidate her into doing what I say. Sure, there are times when she absolutely won't do what I say, but I know that she respects me most of the time, too. And that's more important than fear.

Anyway, you could read "Parenting From the Inside Out". He quotes and explains a lot of studies that have been done on brain development that suggest that when children fear their parents, their brains don't develop quite right. Then you could say to your dad, "Yeah, I'd love to spank, but I'm afraid of brain damage. What can you do?"