Sibling Rivalry... so all-consuming and intense

[Snuggles]

Hi all,

My daughters are 6 and 2.5 and have had a lovely sibling relationship (with the usual ups and downs).. until about 4 weeks ago.

I cannot put together the pieces in my mind that might have turned DD1 from being (for the most part) a loving, attentive, empathetic sibling to being oh-so-angry... incredibly angry and intense and fragile All The Time. This time 4-weeks ago I would have said with confidence that DD1 didn't have it in her to hit/kick/push/hurt her sister. Never had she even come close. What a turn-around we've seen.

Where to start? DD2 can do no right in the eyes of her sister right now. DD1's reaction to anything that she does is either of jealousy or anger. Any bit of attention we pay to DD2 results in jealousy and an immediate requirement for DD1 to have reciprocal treatment. Any bit of attention we pay to DD1 results in self-satisfaction that DD2 is not getting similar treatment.

Any time we tell her we love her she replies "no you don't, you only love dd2... I wish I didn't have a sister". Attempts at reassurance anger her.

She seems to be looking for a fight... or manufactures situations to prove to us that the result is that DD2 "gets away with it" and she "gets in trouble". The "trouble" she refers to is usually removing her from the situation and attempting to talk to her and understand what on earth is going through her head.

Example:

It was DD1's birthday recently and she has a lot of new gifts which she has set as off-limits to her sister. Yesterday she was investigating one of her gifts and DD2 grabbed it which resulted in a SCREAM from DD1. DH was immediately on it, requiring DD2 to return the toy when DD1 walloped her sister. DH could see that DD1 was about to explode and even told her in advance of the thump to stay calm while he spoke to DD2. But the thump came any way. A full-on, anger-filled, no-holding-back, thump. Then, naturally, all attention went from the toy-snatching offense to the violence-offense which was more proof to DD1 that she gets all the "trouble" and DD2 none and we love DD2 more than her.

Later that evening another situation resulting in DD1 jumping up and down on her sister. When she was being pulled off her, she started screaming "your hurting me, I'm frightened of you". She was simply being removed.

It is no exaggeration to say that this is out of the blue to DH and I. We never could have expected to see our daughter hit or hurt. There is a lot of hurt going on inside her that we have not been able to get to the bottom of. I have been trying to understand from her/her teachers/her friends parent if they have any insight and they say that she is a delight, engaged and happy.

When DH or I spend time with Ciara on her own she is also gorgeous to be around. But, put her within 10ft of her sister and the tension in the room is palpable. It is only a matter of time before it all goes horribly wrong.

My laptop is just out of battery... but I would love any advice about how to get to the bottom of what is raging in DDs heart and how to approach the explosions when they occur. How do I diffuse this tension?

[sebandg'smama]

It sounds like a tough time all around for everybody.

My first thought (I just started the book "Sleepless in America") was is your DD1 getting enough sleep?

Or are there any other stresses in her life, like school or friends, where she is taking it out on DD2.

Being around a 2.5 year old is tiring, and even tho I would explain to my ds (8) that his 2 year old sister doesn't really know, we have to teach her, model for her..dd gets away with everything was often all he heard.

So perhaps maybe empathizing with her over how hard it is to have a little sister would help.

[Snuggles]

Thanks sebandg'smama, the hugs are greatly appreciated!

She sleeps very well from 7.30 until 6.30 like clock-work with the odd exception on weekends.

All my investigations re: external stress have turned up nothing, or at least nothing that she hasn't handled much better in the past.

I guess what I need, for a starting point, are some tools and language to use when she says she HATES her sister and that we don't love her. I get too defensive and don't quite know how to validate those sorts of feelings in a way that might be helpful to her.

This-morning I witnessed an unprovoked dragging of nails along her sisters leg. It was just so malicious. Not attention-seeking - she didn't know any one was looking. Just a blind desire to inflict pain on her sister. When DH talked to her she said she didn't know why she wanted to hurt her, she just does. She said she knows it's the wrong thing to do.

[nathansmum]

Gosh, does sounds stressful.

The only thing that comes to mind with what you could say when she expresses her hate for her sister is to go into active listening mode and reflect back her *feelings*, not necessarily what she is saying. So I might say in response to a hate comment is "dd2 is really upsetting you lately?" (I would be interpretting her hate as her feeling upset) and pause and see what she comes back with. If you just keep reflecting back her conversation in a way that focuses on her feelings without offering advice, or toning down her response, or saying her words are too harsh or whatever you may be able to help her to a place to resolve her own issues. The key is to say less and let her talk without you coming to the defence of dd2 even if you want to jump in and rectify her thoughts while you are having that conversation.

I'm currently reading the very old Parent Effectiveness Training and aside from some of the 70's language and a few ideas that aren't really my thing, it's got some really useful ideas on how to be an active listener.

[cpop]

Sounds really hard! Hugs mama!
I recommend the book Siblings Without Rivalry.
It has some really good advice.
One thing that jumps out from your thread is that DD1 just had her birthday. My dd1 was really difficult around the first birthday after my twins were born. She started crying one night and said "I don't want to turn four. I want to be your baby". Maybe the birthday set her off.
Another book that my dd1 really, really loves is Big Sister Now. It is a picture book about a little girl who has a baby brother, but she hates it. It doesn't sugercoat the really difficult feelings older children sometimes have in relation to their younger siblings.
Keep us posted if you figure it out.

[gaialice]

Oh, shuggles this sounds so sad. I do not have time to post much but I wanted to send this link
http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/helping.html

[Justmee]

That seems sooo hard! I second siblings without rivalry. It has a lot of tips and tricks and phrases you can start to use right away. I do a lot of achnologing feelings, etc around here. It seems to help (sometimes

Do your dd's share a room? Maybe she needs her own (if possible).

I know some peopel have had good luck with setting up a special corner of the living room with nice bean bag chairs, a lap desk, crayons or markers, books where DD1 could go and still be near you but have her own special space / privacy when she feels she needs space from DD2.

and good luck

[Ruthla]

My guess would be that her little sister has changed from being "cute little baby" to "little girl who gets into my stuff." I'm sure that's at least part of it.

But all that anger? There's gotta be something else going on as well. Could she be reacting to something new in her diet? Is she getting enough sleep? Getting proper nutrition? There could be a physical component as well.

She also needs to understand that is IS OK to feel angry and jealous- it's not acceptable to hurt her sister, but she's not a "bad girl" for simply having these thoughts. She needs help finding healthy, safe ways to express her anger.

[Snuggles]

Thanks everyone. I have just spent some time trying to locate my copy of Siblings Without Rivalry which is in a box we packed 2-years ago when we moved. Still haven't unpacked everything!: I read it when I was pregnant with DD2.

Originally Posted by nathansmum

The key is to say less and let her talk without you coming to the defence of dd2 even if you want to jump in and rectify her thoughts while you are having that conversation.

I agree, I find it really difficult not to pipe up with sagely advise... but, how do I set the scene for her to want to talk in the first place? She usually does not want to talk about it.

Originally Posted by cpop

One thing that jumps out from your thread is that DD1 just had her birthday. My dd1 was really difficult around the first birthday after my twins were born. She started crying one night and said "I don't want to turn four. I want to be your baby".

Yes, this has been a running theme lately. She also says she wants to be our baby again. She has been asking a lot to be allowed to sleep in our bed, which I'm not altogether opposed to in some respects. She moved out of our room very happily when she was 4 and DD2 6-months without looking back. Her choice. DH travels a lot and when he does she sleeps in our bed on weekends for a special treat. My concern about an open-ended invitation back into our room is that she will be woken by DD2 who still has some night-waking episodes. : DD1 is in school and needs her sleep. Not to mention the lack of room, but I guess that is just furniture re-arrangement.

Is there another way? Should the desire to be a baby be indulged? How can she feel secure as the 6-year-old she is?

Originally Posted by gaialice

I do not have time to post much but I wanted to send this link

Thanks for the great link! It really helped.

Originally Posted by RachelEve14

I know some peopel have had good luck with setting up a special corner of the living room with nice bean bag chairs, a lap desk, crayons or markers, books where DD1 could go and still be near you but have her own special space / privacy when she feels she needs space from DD2.

Thanks, the trick here would be to figure out how to prevent DD2 from encroaching on a special space! :

Originally Posted by Ruthla

My guess would be that her little sister has changed from being "cute little baby" to "little girl who gets into my stuff." I'm sure that's at least part of it.

But all that anger? There's gotta be something else going on as well. Could she be reacting to something new in her diet? Is she getting enough sleep? Getting proper nutrition? There could be a physical component as well.

She also needs to understand that is IS OK to feel angry and jealous- it's not acceptable to hurt her sister, but she's not a "bad girl" for simply having these thoughts. She needs help finding healthy, safe ways to express her anger.

Thanks Ruthla, I love your post. I think that whatever happened must be more in the immediate past than a gradual transformation because the transformation in DD1 has been stark and virtually over-night. DD2 has been getting in her stuff for quite some time now and DD1 has been the master DD2 re-directer in our family and was very in touch with finding win-wins when her sister becomes annoying. She seems to have abandoned these strategies of late.

DD2 has actually gone from annoying little sister to adorably cute and funny! I think DD1 was better able to deal with "annoying" than when DD2 is showered with positive attention for all the cute/funny/new things she is doing now... which I think is where her perception that she gets all the trouble and DD2 none probably stems from.

The sleep and diet bit doesn't ring true for her. She goes to sleep easily at night and wakes naturally in the morning. We are pretty boring around here in terms of diet. It is well-balanced, but fairly unchanging from week-to-week. This is her first year of school and it is coming to the end of the school year (Australia), so maybe she is getting weary. But, but, but... she only lashes out at her sister... never at me or DH or anyone else... which she is not opposed to doing when stressed... which is why I feel it is in fact sibling-related. But, why so intense? That is the big unknown for me. Was it one thing that happened? Did we miss something? Or has it been a build up and the flood-gates opened? .. for the first time in her sister's life? I don't know the answers.

YES, YES, YES to your last paragraph. This is the part where I need to find the right words to use to convey this.

Question: What should the immediate response be to a scenario where she hits her sister?... let's say it was provoked!


Thank-you so much everyone. I am beginning to feel a little less helpless!

Now, back to searching boxes for SWR!!

[crb]

I think you are right on target about having trouble dealing with the cute and cuddly and adorable sibling - that sounds hard! Especially when you think that 6.5 is getting a bit older - out of that cute little kid phase (maybe?), so the cuteness is particularly irritating? Some of this is just brainstorming . . .

• I think the key for right now (and again, this shifted a month ago and will likely shift back soon) would be to preempt dd2 from interfering w/dd1 - try to stop her from touching dd1's toys before she does it (to avoid the violence). If violence occurs, I focus on comforting the victim and then help the victim tell the aggressor "No, I didn't like that! No hitting me".
• I don't know how you feel about the forced apology, but I have started requesting a "seeing if the victim is ok" or explanation of behavior (Are you ok? I hit you, it was an accident. I shouldn't have hurt you., etc.) since dd1 seemed to "hit and run", which I felt was causing damage to the relationship. I spoke with dd and drew a picture of a blanket and said that was like their relationship. That when one hurt the other one, there was a tear or rip in the blanket. That "making amends" was just that: mending the blanket to make it stronger. Without that, it would just become more and more tattered and less warm and snuggly.
• We have the dining room of our house gated off w/baby gates for a getaway area for dd. Sometimes she needs it, not much anymore.
• Whenever they are really getting along well, or older dd does something kind or helpful for ds, I try to point it out so dd sees her "goodness" in the relationship and sees the good times.
• I don't say you can't hate - If dd says "I hate ds!" I would say - "Wow! you sound really angry right now! DS took your toy right from you!" and help to work out the argument before violence erupts. I try to sympathize about how hard it can be to have a younger sibling at other times, too (not just the heat of the moment).
• You might play a playful parenting game w/older dd to help her get out her anger toward little ones. From Playful Parenting we played "Hot Lava" where dd saved babydolls and stuffies from burning lava. Or some sort of growling animal game with you? Or make a cute innocent stuffed animal into some terrible beast you are scared of and have dd save you?

Good luck!

[Snuggles]

Thanks crb, the rivalry continues. We are concentrating on our response to it and on minimising the opportunities for it to occur as you suggested.

DD1 really seems to detest DD2 given her manner towards her. I saw her glowering at DD2 who was committing no offense, just playing by herself. I truly hope this can be turned around. On the occassions that they do play well, DD1 seems to be doing it as a concession to please us.

[swampangel]

Big hugs to you, Snuggles. Sibling stuff is so hard!

You asked awhile back about indulging the desire to be babied. I would definitely indulge this desire at every opportunity if you can. My 4yo has done this a lot since ds2 was born. He wants to pretend he's a baby at all different phases and ages...sometimes he's the baby that doesn't know how to walk or talk yet and sometimes he's just learning these things and wants me to be really proud. Ds1 often wants to be cradled by me which is kind of fun, too.

Do you have siblings? I wonder if your dd1 would be interesting in hearing about how annoying or irritated you felt by a younger sib? Any way that you can get in there and relate with her and connect I think will go a long way. It sounds like this is a bit of a vicious cycle that needs to be interrupted. It almost sounds right now that she can't control her impulse to hurt her sister...and I mean that the desire is just so strong and she's already "gone there" so it's hard to stop herself. I think if you can sort of be an ally of sorts about whatever perceptions she has right now about being the oldest might help.

Good luck with it. I think it's all particularly hard when things were going so well before. I worry about this, too, because my oldest has been great with ds2...but who knows what the future holds.

[cpop]

I just wanted to respond to your question about how to get her to talk to you.

The thing that works best with my dd, who never wants to talk about feelings (she's very sensitive and I think it stresses her out) is a roundabout way.

At bedtime we usually cuddle for a while and she wants me to tell her a story. I try to make the story somehow relevant to whatever she is going through emotionally at the time. It doesn't have to be a good story (I'm not that creative) but it has to mirror some difficulty she is having at the time. After I tell her the story she will usually just open up and talk about it all. Either about herself or the character in the story. So you could try that.

[Quinalla]

I will say that even if you get along very well with your siblings, they will still irritate the crap out of you growing up sometimes. I know with my younger sister, I think I was just frustrated seeing her go through things I had already gone through and gotten over. She was a living reminder of the "stupid" phases I went through and my immature self. I don't know if I am making sense here, but I just want to say that maybe she has been getting more and more annoyed with her sister and didn't have a good outlet and it has just reached the limit and she feels like exploding. Does she get plenty of alone time to play? I know that helped me as a kid. Can you try and talk to her about how it is ok to be annoyed and angry and here are appropriate ways to deal with it (tell the person, hit a pillow, run around in circles, take a break and play alone, write in a journal, draw a picture, etc.) and hitting and whatnot are not appropriate?

I know it has got to be hard. I think my siblings and I got along pretty well considering, but we still had our moments. And I definitely think same sex siblings are more annoying, that is my experience and my brothers' too.

[Snuggles]

Originally Posted by swampangel

Do you have siblings? I wonder if your dd1 would be interesting in hearing about how annoying or irritated you felt by a younger sib? Any way that you can get in there and relate with her and connect I think will go a long way. It sounds like this is a bit of a vicious cycle that needs to be interrupted. It almost sounds right now that she can't control her impulse to hurt her sister...and I mean that the desire is just so strong and she's already "gone there" so it's hard to stop herself. I think if you can sort of be an ally of sorts about whatever perceptions she has right now about being the oldest might help.

Thanks! I related a story to her about my sibling relationship with my younger brother who was sweet as pie and the bane of my existence! I remember a time when he was just eating his dinner and I screamed at him to "STOP IT" and when my parents enquired what he had done my response was "He is looking at me with his big horrible eyes", to which my parents exploded with laughter.... but, I didn't see what was so funny. : DD1 seemed to understand my POV.

[Snuggles]

Originally Posted by cpop

At bedtime we usually cuddle for a while and she wants me to tell her a story. I try to make the story somehow relevant to whatever she is going through emotionally at the time. It doesn't have to be a good story (I'm not that creative) but it has to mirror some difficulty she is having at the time. After I tell her the story she will usually just open up and talk about it all. Either about herself or the character in the story. So you could try that.

I will try that, thanks! At bed-time we talk about the 'best bit' and 'worst bit' of our day. Unsurprisingly, the 'worst bit' is always DD2 related.

[Snuggles]

Originally Posted by Quinalla

I will say that even if you get along very well with your siblings, they will still irritate the crap out of you growing up sometimes. I know with my younger sister, I think I was just frustrated seeing her go through things I had already gone through and gotten over. She was a living reminder of the "stupid" phases I went through and my immature self. I don't know if I am making sense here, but I just want to say that maybe she has been getting more and more annoyed with her sister and didn't have a good outlet and it has just reached the limit and she feels like exploding. Does she get plenty of alone time to play? I know that helped me as a kid. Can you try and talk to her about how it is ok to be annoyed and angry and here are appropriate ways to deal with it (tell the person, hit a pillow, run around in circles, take a break and play alone, write in a journal, draw a picture, etc.) and hitting and whatnot are not appropriate?

Thanks Qunialla, My brother and I fought like cats and dogs growing up and while we don't have a bad relationship, we also don't have a close one. I was thrilled to see how loving DD1 was with DD2 up until now and I guess I am now afraid that their relationship might descend into the same sort that I had.

I think I am suffering from Analysis Paralysis. There are a lot of suggestions to sift through.

DD1 and I have the afternoon to ourselves on Saturday which we both enjoy a lot, but, as far as having her own space at home... she has her own bedroom, but, of course she wants to be near me/the family/the action where everything she does is greatly interesting to DD2 who wants to do exactly the same thing that DD1 is doing.