another 4 year old thread ... wwyd?

[Tuesday]

Like some of the other moms here who started threads about their 4 year olds, our DS is tres tres challenging. He is intense and explosive.

Something happened today and I'm not sure how to handle it.

We (4.5 year old DS and 15 month old DS and I) went to library and spent some quality time picking out a dozen books and a film to watch. We were en route to get some items at health food store and then planned to have lunch, read books and then watch movie together.

DS (the older one) and I were simply walking along in the health store as I pushed younger child in cart and I said something to him. Just a comment about something - I can't recall what - it was an every day remark said in gentle normal tone - perhaps a comment on a store item or maybe a request to come with me down an aisle. DS says, "Fu*k you!". I don't know why he became upset. I

He was quite angry at whatever injustice he perceived had occurred. And, with his speech delay his words sounded like "BUCK YOU". Nevertheless, message received.

DS has already adopted the F word and "idiot" into his vocab. We hadn't come up with a good way of dealing with it. Ignoring doesn't work nor does punishing or giving other words or just saying, "We don't say that in this family" etc etc. Nothing works.

I'm not sure why exactly this really ticked me off - likely the "YOU" part of the utterance.

In any case, I told DS we'd finish getting our items and then we'd head home and there would be no movie or stories today.

I stayed calm but DS is out of control crying, sobbing and acting as if I'd just set him on fire. THe more I am calm, the more he is upset and accusing me of being "mean" and his rudeness and aggressiveness is just increasing.

I explained he just can not speak to me like this.

I really don't think it's a good precedent to set.

And yet at some level I wonder - does he "understand" what he says? Is taking away his books and planned activity for the day to harsh or too easy?

I spoke with my parents - of course, they'd have spanked me and sent me to my room for rest of day without question.

DS physically refused to go to his room and I don't have the strength to fight it. I've just taken the younger one and left him alone.

Just wondering what other moms in SAME circumstance would do?

Do you ignore, punish, consequence (and what?) or what /?????

THANKS!

[abi&ben'smom]

I ignore it! (and try not to laugh) If they say it some more, I just casually say that it's a bad word and change the subject.

[Tuesday]

Really?! Our 4 year old quite often calls people "Idiot" when frustrated or occasionally incorporates "buck off" (meaning the f-word) into his conversation. My first instinctive thought after he said, "Buck you" was "he's experimenting" but then my logical, authoritarian father's voice took-over and I felt compelled to "deal with it".

I think your solution is a lot less stressful. I really wanted to have fun with DS this afternoon - it was a drag to dwell on this issue. I confuse myself and DS with how to deal with the swearing.

Thanks for the reply!

[swampangel]

This is interesting because to me it also seems like something that should be dealt with somehow. There's a difference between experimenting with a word and using it to hurt someone. Some kids at my son's school are calling each other stupid and other names. I think it all goes along with learning social graces and how to manage our feelings in a social setting. But I think they do need help with that process.

Of course, I'm not sure at all how to deal with it but it seems to me like a way of hurting others. It's really different to say "fu*ck!" than "fu*k you!". Right? I might be splitting hairs but I tend to look more at the intention.

[hammas]

I would probably comment like "that's something people say when they are really angry and frustrated and can't think of anything else to say but you can always say that you're really angry". Then I would find out what it is that is bothering my child, try to address that and spend even more time with him so that we would be repairing our loving connection.

(We don't speak English or live in a English speaking country so I don't really understand how bad that "f**k you" is to say but I was thinking the worst thing one could say in our own language.)

[mamaduck]

There's a difference between experimenting with a word and using it to hurt someone.

Absolutely. I am one who ignores profanity from my children, or at least takes it in stride, when it is generalized or experimental. But directed profanity, and name calling, are not okay. FTR, "Shut up" is just as bad, imo, when directed at a person. I agree with the pp that the intention and directedness of the comments are the critical element, not the chosen words. Does that make sense?

I dealt with name calling and directed, hurtful words in the same fashion that I addressed hitting. It all falls under the broad catagory of "hurtful behavior." What I tell my children is that if they treat people hurtfully, then they need to take a break from being with people, and spend some time alone. When they are ready to treat people kindly, they can rejoin the family.

I think that refusing to read stories is logical, because when someone directs profanity at me, the last thing that I want to do is spend time doing something nice for them. I would gently suggest that I needed some space because I was hurt by his words. Though, I will say that I would not use this tact unless I did genuinely feel stung, and feel the need for some space. Which I think you did feel upset, right?

I dunno about the no movies consequence, unless you think movie watching is related to his explosive behaviors -- which it could be.

I don't believe in forced apologies, but when my kids hurt someone, I do suggest to them that they try to repair the damage by "checking in" with the person they have hurt. This can mean a lot of things -- the child can decide how to "check-in." My kids have apologized, they have offered a hug, they have asked if the harmed person is okay, they have made a picture for me, etc....

[mommy2abigail]

I agree with MamaDuck. I dont have a 4 year old yet, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but I probably would have simply said "I do not like to be spoken to that way. Please use kind words when talking to me." And continued shopping and whatnot. However, I can totally see getting upset about being told to f*ck off by my 4 year old. I think I react more strongly when I get embarrased, when we are out in public and I feel like 'they' (whoever 'they' are) wants me to do SOMEthing about my childs behavior. It's something I am really working on, something I am trying to be really mindful of. I think, by telling my kid, "Hey, I dont want to be hit/spoken to that way/ect" it gives me something consistant to do, addresses the problem, and keeps me from reacting in a punative manner. HTH

[Tuesday]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

...
I dealt with name calling and directed, hurtful words in the same fashion that I addressed hitting. It all falls under the broad catagory of "hurtful behavior." What I tell my children is that if they treat people hurtfully, then they need to take a break from being with people, and spend some time alone. When they are ready to treat people kindly, they can rejoin the family.

I think that refusing to read stories is logical, because when someone directs profanity at me, the last thing that I want to do is spend time doing something nice for them. I would gently suggest that I needed some space because I was hurt by his words. Though, I will say that I would not use this tact unless I did genuinely feel stung, and feel the need for some space. Which I think you did feel upset, right?

I dunno about the no movies consequence, unless you think movie watching is related to his explosive behaviors -- which it could be.

I don't believe in forced apologies, but when my kids hurt someone, I do suggest to them that they try to repair the damage by "checking in" with the person they have hurt. This can mean a lot of things -- the child can decide how to "check-in." My kids have apologized, they have offered a hug, they have asked if the harmed person is okay, they have made a picture for me, etc....

Hmm. Yes, I definitely think DS's bad language (today and other days) falls into the hurtful behaviour category. He definitely is trying to hurt us.

I like your explanation you gave in terms of gently telling your kids you needs some space. But ... how do the kids respond? And if they are or were incredibly distraught when you retreat - then what?

I am so confused.

I have done what you said over the past year - I have said gently - hey you can't speak to me (or others) like that ... it hurts feelings, it's rude, . .. etc etc. DS responds with explosive crying and pleading and following me around. And he definitely doesn't apologize. If we respond with a logical consequence, he absolutely loses it emotionally - hours can go by and he just will not settle down.


He eventually switches off, after a few hugs, to something new. But that is only if there are no consequences to his behaviour (including me giving myself a time out).

Meanwhile, I'm usually still upset that this child of mine has directed hurtful cursewords or bad words (idiot) to others yet he has moved on to something else.

I'm confused. If we consequence his hurtful swearing and name-calling, there is no effect on his behaviour and it just makes the entire household miserable. And if we ignore it - well he learns nothing.

Does the miserable-ness subside as the child develops and realizes what is going on? I sometimes think he doesn't even realize how hurtful is behaviour is ...?

(Incidentally, we don't watch t.v. and any movies are short 30 -40 minute gentle children's programs. )

I'm sorry my reply is so scattered - I'm just trying to make sense of what to do next.

[abi&ben'smom]

I just wanted to add to my other reply!! (I had 2 extra kids over and my husband telling me I was late for work as I was reading/writing, so forgive me if I sounded insensitive to your situation!!) I don't ignore my kids if they are intentionally trying to hurt someone's feelings. (I meant if they were just saying it for no real reason!) My dd tries to hurt my feelings allllllll the time. Sometimes when she tells me she hates me and that I am so mean (like today when I wouldn't let her have candy in the morning), I just keep telling her that I still love her. And today I just kept giving her hugs and was telling her how much I was going to miss her when I went to work and that I was going to think about her all day until I got back home. She begrudgingly told me that she would miss me too. But then other times she really gets to me and I end up getting really frustrated and she ends up losing dessert, or computer time, etc. And I definately make her say sorry to her brother or friend if she says really mean things to them. I know that she might not really mean it, but I don't really know what else to do! (That's why I like reading these threads, to get some good ideas!)

[Terrilein]

Is it possible that your ds wasn't even thinking of you when he said that in the store? I know with my dd that she would occasionally experiment with bad words. That's one thing, of course. But other times she would say something nasty to me and she really just wanted to see how I react, basically trying a role play with me. I had the distinct impression that kids in her pre-school were saying things like this to her/each other and she didn't know how to react. So I was her sounding board. If she was really angry with me, then it was obvious that she thought this was an appropriate way to express herself. So if she was just experimenting, we'd talk about bad language use. If she was using me as a sounding board, then I'd demonstrate "sticks and stones may break my bones . . .", and if she was sincerely angry then I'd try to get to the bottom of the issue.
And 4 years is a hard year - kids are transitioning from toddlerhood to childhood and display a lot of characteristics from both ages. So it's hard to know sometimes how to act/treat your child in an age appropriate manner. You don't want to give them the feeling that they're acting like a baby, but treating them like a big kid can backfire, too.

Good luck!

[mamaduck]

DS responds with explosive crying and pleading and following me around. And he definitely doesn't apologize. If we respond with a logical consequence, he absolutely loses it emotionally - hours can go by and he just will not settle down

Okay, I had this for a bit over hitting behavior when my oldest was 4. I did not withdraw/retreat when they were this emotional over it -- its probably too punative, if he is responding this intensely, kwim?

When people behave hurtfully, they create problems and barriers between themselves and others. He needs to learn that his behavior has that effect, because this is the real reason that we don't act that way, kwim?

What about stopping and sitting down with him, and telling him that you will sit with him, but that there is a problem between the two of you, and you just cannot move on to other things until you work out the problem. It would mean sitting with him and having a very serious talk, EVERYTIME he behaved hurtfully, and helping him to process and come up with a way to solve the problem. "There is a problem between you and me -- you said a very mean thing to me, and it created a problem. We need to figure out how you can help to fix that problem, before we do other things. What are your ideas?"

It might require pulling him to a private space and listening to a lot of drama, everytime. But hopefully it would begin to gradually make a difference?

I would also work what he CAN say to you when he is angry, and role play those words together. Because it is important that he be able to tell you when he's angry with you. There are just more appropriate ways to do it, kwim! LOL.

[joensally]

What about trying a "rewind?"

As in: "Woah! That's an out of bounds word! Would you like a rewind?" or "Is that what you meant to say, would you like a rewind?"

My DS sometimes says things impulsively and doesn't really think it through. A lot of times his emotions are larger than his ability to manage them, and at this age any number of seemingly small/simple things can overwhelm a child. I had tried everything to get him to stop with the private and rude words, and rewinds have been the most effective.

We also have ongoing, situation-specific, brief dialogues about our impact on others, so the rewind fits in this context. The rewind also provides the opportunity for some face-saving and relationship-mending immediately. IME, 4 year olds often become intransigent after an incident because they're embarassed and don't want to have made a mistake.

[Bellejar]

When my almost four year old says things I don't like (althouh she has yet to drop the F-bomb!) I usually say that is a bad word some people say when they are angry/mad/upset we don't say that, we say X instead. I give her an alternative that is not a swear. Think Darn! or Oh Man! If they want to express themselves it is fine with me, but some words should not be in a four year olds lexicon

[Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Bellejar

When my almost four year old says things I don't like (althouh she has yet to drop the F-bomb!) I usually say that is a bad word some people say when they are angry/mad/upset we don't say that, we say X instead. I give her an alternative that is not a swear. Think Darn! or Oh Man! If they want to express themselves it is fine with me, but some words should not be in a four year olds lexicon

I've tried this solution a dozen times and it doesn't work. By telling him, "our family doesn't use that word" or providing an alternative or having him invent a swear word - those have been invitations to DS to increase his usage of the F word. I'm glad it worked with your kids but I have tried that solution over and over and it just doesn't work.

I think I'm going to incorporate the idea of the "rewind" and see how that goes. We actually have been meeting with a child psychiatrist about DS and she did say, for what it's worth, when you do give a consequence, don't expect the child to like it. Meaning when DS 'freaked' out about losing his special movie with mom because he swore, she felt that behaviour was to be expected. I'm not sure yet how I feel about her thoughts on this subject.

Thank you to everyone for your replies - you've all given me a lot to think about and use. Thanks.