A crisis of GD faith

[sunnmama]

I have been thinking long and hard about GD for a couple of months now, as we continue to move through a very difficult period with dd. The short version: dd is very intense. We have practiced GD since toddlerhood, and have long dealt with meltdowns and rages. There have been smooth times and rough time, but she was maturing and things were getting generally smoother.

Well, we moved, she is having a very difficult time adjusting, and her behavior reflects her struggle. After 2 months of raging, we are now seeing general behavioral regression, including needing to leave stores and enduring screaming fits and seat kicking on the way home as was common when she was 3 :. We did that twice today :.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this quote, from the sticky above:

"Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems."

In particular, I have been thinking about the bolded. Dd does have reasons for her behavior....but they are not the reasons that they appear to be in the moment. It isn't about anything small happening day to day. It isn't even about anything any of us can control day to day. It is about the move. I am trying to help her with that, including family counseling. But I can't fix that anger for her, kwim? And I can't negotiate it away. And I can't cooperate it away....and we can't solve the problem together. So I am, essentially, stuck. And so is she. She feels crappy, so she acts crappy, and there is just about nothing I can do about it but suffer through.

I feel like GD (as characterized in the quote above....called there "effective discipline") has completely failed us in this situation. I don't really know what I am trying to say.....this is just something that I've been struggling with and I need some reflection. I need some fresh perspective.

[chfriend]

Regressions are very very very hard. Because you feel like you are getting somewhere, then it turns around for a bit.

We made a local move this summer and my intense, sensitive, sensory-troubled dd1 stopped letting me brush her hair. Then got wax in it.

I've been picking her hair every night since Fall started and it's still a wreck.

For me, I try to remember how I responded during the 2 years that I had to work on her head at night while she was sleeping. I try to avoid the moments I slipped and got impatient with her. I try to do what worked then and learn from what didn't work.

Are you worried there is something diagnose-ably wrong? Or do you think it's a normal regression she'll outgrow again, this time more permanently?

[famousmockngbrd]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

But I can't fix that anger for her, kwim? And I can't negotiate it away. And I can't cooperate it away....and we can't solve the problem together. So I am, essentially, stuck. And so is she. She feels crappy, so she acts crappy, and there is just about nothing I can do about it but suffer through.

I think you are right on here. And what would solve this problem for her if you weren't using a GD approach? Obviously, you can't punish or scold the problem away, either.

It's good that you know what the real reason is, even though it's not anything you can fix. A lot of times I have trouble figuring out what the real reason is. For me, the value in knowing the reason why they are acting up, is because I can hold onto my cool better if I know why they are being the horrible beasts they are being. Their behaviour doesn't seem so irrational and difficult if I know they are acting out of real pain with a real source.

And, you're not powerless. You can create avenues for her to heal herself. I think family counseling is a great idea. How long ago did the move occur?

[fritz]

So your DD feels that she has no control over her life? (As a result of having to move although she didn't want to move.) She feels sad that she had to leave her friends and familiar places behind? She misses her old home? Is your new home/town a similar location (size, vibe), or completely different?

I would think that GD would help you empathize with your DD, to help her verbalize/express (through drawing or play) or otherwise let out her big feelings. From your siggy it looks like she's 6? Have you talked with her about her feelings about the move? Does she have any ideas for ways to deal with her grief/upset over moving? Or is she open to any of your (or your counselor's) suggestions?

Moving is so stressful (even for adults)! I hope you're able to find a path (or several paths) that help her heal.

[laoxinat]

While I agree it sounds like she has had some stress, my gut feeling is she wants limits. Not rules, just a simple, no, sweetie you may not scream and yell when you don't get what you want. It won't work the first time, or even necessarily the 10th, but if you remain loving and kind, eventually she will learn how to master those emotional storms. I am not advocating you be harsh or punitive in any way, and in fact it would ruin the whole effect if you were. At six, of course perfect self control doesn't exist, but what you are describing sounds excessive. I would try the Cesar Millan thing-be the alpha wolf It sounds weird, but because kids often respond to energetic qualities more than they do to words (remember Charlie brown's mom?), it is vital that we learn to manifest a state that assures our kids we are responsible (able to respond)i.e. in charge. When I was able to do this, and it took a return to Shaolin Kung Fu for me to find my own power, my relationship with my kids was utterly transformed. They were much less likely to test and test, though of course they had their moments. It's not a cure all, just an acknowledgment that when I keep myself in calm, assertive state, my kids feel less inclined to make me prove I am the ma'am. Unfortunately some kids (I was one) just can't abide a vacuum of power and are compelled to fill it. But the fear kids experience in the face of their own power can be overwhelming. This can be a real paradox for GDers with spirited kids. But based on many years of observation, I truly believe kids really do want limits and more importantly need to be helped to develop trust in themselves that they can indeed control themselves. Often, spirited kids will try to get mom and dad to be their external "cop" rather than taking personal responsibility. Partly this is due to feelings of powerlessness over their own emotions. So we start by limiting choices to help prevent overwhelm, and slowly move to a paradigm that acknowledges the child's ability to make more and more of his/her own choices as his/her ability to take responsibility develops. Limiting options can actually help them feel more in control. HTH
laoxinat

[Terrilein]

Gosh, we went through an aweful phase, too, when we moved. On top of that, the move was due to my separation from my ex. So not only was dd in a new town, new pre-school, new environment altogether, she really missed her dad. That's when she started having real meltdowns - something that we'd basically skipped in toddlerhood. Anything could trigger one, and she'd be off to her room, bawling, destroying her room and crying for her daddy. And there was no consoling her. She did adjust though. In hindsight, I wish we had done more to like this new town. So I'm thinking, maybe you could organize a scavanger hunt with your family (maybe get your neighbors with same aged kids involved?), pair off a child with an adult and then go through the list of things to see/do/collect. It could give your dd the opportunity to explore her new surroundings in a playful manner and see how nice it is where you live now, and give your child more choices for daily activities if she knows what's available. This could satisfy your dd's need to have some kind of control over her life by simply knowing all her options, knowing what she can ask to do.

[sunnmama]

The move was three months ago.
The regression part now it tiring, but manageable. And I can at least see it as progress (from rage to regression), and know that things are improving. I am still feeling traumatized and resentful about the 2 months of rage. I just can't wrap my head around a child acting that way to her parents. Hitting, kicking, spitting at them....you name it.

Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd

I think you are right on here. And what would solve this problem for her if you weren't using a GD approach? Obviously, you can't punish or scold the problem away, either.

I guess I feel that, if I had instituted a more clear "action/consequence" pattern from a younger age, she wouldn't have felt so free to hit, kick, and spit at me. I am an in tune, attached mother; I don't need to be hit/kicked/spit at to understand that she is struggling. I still would have been working with her to deal with the adjustment. I still would have worked to help her. I probably would have had more energy and patience to work with her *more*.

As it was, we needed to set up some "action/consquence" strategies in emergency mode, to protect us, dd, and ds. And I think it was SO much harder, because she had the added stress of trying to figure out how to handle that, kwim? By consequences, I am talking about time out. Simply being removed, and being forced to stay removed until your actions are no longer unsafe.

So now I am reflecting, because I am wondering what I could have done differently. Frankly, the firm limits (backed up by strict time-outs) really helped. I do think she needed to see the limit very clearly, test it, and know *exactly* where the line is. But I think it was a negative thing that we had to start that, for the first time, when she was already having a horrible time. I am wondering if it wouldn't have been far better for dd to have learned how to do a time out in calmer times, so that we could use that tool more effectively when in emergency mode.

As for diagnosable, she has SPD, and I suspect some anxiety issues. I don't know if there is anything else. The therapist thinks it is simply temperament, and we need to find the ways that work best for all of our temperaments. He thinks that we have done a whole lot of stuff right, and she needs these firmer limits with very predictable consequences. The GD part of me wants to argue with him (and I do debate it with him, so that he knows where I have come from), but, as dd's mother, I think that this might actually make her a happier, less stressed child. And I guess I feel a little betrayed.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

So now I am reflecting, because I am wondering what I could have done differently. Frankly, the firm limits (backed up by strict time-outs) really helped. I do think she needed to see the limit very clearly, test it, and know *exactly* where the line is. But I think it was a negative thing that we had to start that, for the first time, when she was already having a horrible time. I am wondering if it wouldn't have been far better for dd to have learned how to do a time out in calmer times, so that we could use that tool more effectively when in emergency mode.

It's hard when your child doesn't follow 'the book', and when she (and you) are clearly having such a hard time.

The firmer limits thing is a chicken and an egg problem. Why use time outs when she doesn't need them? I do time outs for our SPD son too - and it's always when he's simply out of control and can't be with people until he calms down. And the SPD part means that he has a hard time calming down. I tried 'time in' only to get hit. He NEEDS the separation to get it out of his system. I don't know if that's the SPD or his introversion. We connect afterward, but when he's like this, he can't (and I mean physically/neurologically cannot) respond to other methods.

As for diagnosable, she has SPD, and I suspect some anxiety issues. I don't know if there is anything else. The therapist thinks it is simply temperament, and we need to find the ways that work best for all of our temperaments. He thinks that we have done a whole lot of stuff right, and she needs these firmer limits with very predictable consequences. The GD part of me wants to argue with him (and I do debate it with him, so that he knows where I have come from), but, as dd's mother, I think that this might actually make her a happier, less stressed child. And I guess I feel a little betrayed.

Betrayed by??? The theory? Your approach?

I've always been on the firmer side of GD, so I don't have a problem with logical consequences.

Remember, if internally her world is feeling out of control, she may need external control to help her feel safe. Some of us like order and predictability. It's a temperament trait (yes, I've got it). My dh can travel spontaneously, stopping where ever he feels like whenever he feels like it. I can do this for about 48 hours. Then I get so stressed by not knowing what's coming up that I become impossible to live with. I become a royal . It took me 35 years to discover this. Your dd is only 6.

I would highly recommend books by Stanley Greenspan. The majority of his work has been with special needs kids (specifically children with autism), but he's written some books for typical kids too. I find that his way of thinking really helps me for my two kids (ds with SPD, and dd, who is neurotypical, but very very persistent). I really like his approach because it focuses on connection, seeing the child's point of view, and teaching problem-solving techniques. He does also talk about the importance of limit setting for many children, which I suspect will irritate the GD portion of you (heck parts of it irritate me - I don't like the removing privileges part), but you can implement some more gentle limit setting within this framework.

Recommended books by him:
The Challenging Child
Playground Politics
Great Kids

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Betrayed by???

Alfie Kohn

Seriously, the whole theory! Unconditional parenting, "effective parenting" from above, GD by some definitions, etc.

I mean, yeah, I know it can work. I've seen it work with dd. But, when we got into a tight spot, it really didn't work. And by not work, I mean things got really, really bad, and there were no UP tools to bring peace back to our home. What did "work" (mean, bring all of us to a place of more peace) didn't feel very GD/UP/etc. And I am struggling with that.

[loraxc]

First, OP, I can relate to the feeling that GD is failing you. I have felt this way before (most acutely when one of DD's dacyare teachers took DH aside and said we must not be disciplining DD effectively....

Unfortunately some kids (I was one) just can't abide a vacuum of power and are compelled to fill it. But the fear kids experience in the face of their own power can be overwhelming. This can be a real paradox for GDers with spirited kids. But based on many years of observation, I truly believe kids really do want limits and more importantly need to be helped to develop trust in themselves that they can indeed control themselves. Often, spirited kids will try to get mom and dad to be their external "cop" rather than taking personal responsibility. Partly this is due to feelings of powerlessness over their own emotions.

This was a really thought-provoking read for me. I have said to people before, only half jokingly, that DD is stronger than either DH or I. She has a very powerful will and a very big personality. She is a hard kid to GD! (To be fair, I think she would be hard to "traditionally" discipline, too.) I often feel like we yoyo back and forth from being too controlling (on the days we feel like, "No, we have to be the parent and be stronger and set more limits") to too lax (on days when we feel like, "Oh, but she's struggling with X and Y, and her feelings are so intense, and..."). It's also sometimes quite tricky to understand why DD is suddenly doing well or suddenly struggling. FTR, we strongly suspect SPD in her as well, and I really think that her issues with dysregulation play a big part in our ups and downs. Perhaps more attention to the SPD would help? Does she do OT?

[malibusunny]

I've never read GD to mean ND. (that's "no discipline"). I'm a teacher. I have limits for my students. They often need to be reminded of those limits. Sometimes, they need to be seperated from the group that is compelling them to continue negative actions, so I seperate them. But I don't yell "get in time out!" at them, you know? If they need time apart, there is a way of doing that without making it punitive. Granted, I have secondary kids. But there is a huge difference between giving a kid an out when they need it, and forcing them out as a punishment.

[mamaduck]

I am really fond of the word "structure." I like it much better than the words "limits" or "rules." Granted, structure incorporates limits, rules and consequences -- but the word is gentler on my ears, and makes sense to me because I am a person who is more successful when I have a clear structure to work within. I think all children need structure, and some need a more clearly deliniated structure than others. (And structure can be flexible, and change as the child's needs change.)

It makes sense to me that the move would make your daughter feel out of control and powerless, and that imposing some structure (and consequences) in her life right now might help to restore her sense of control and structure in life that the move took away. Sometimes children need to feel "contained" in order to feel secure. I don't think that providing for this need is outside the realm of GD -- I think it is apart of acknowleging and responding to your child's needs.

[mom2tatum]

First, I feel for you. This must be so frustrating. Personally, I only have a 16 mo old. I have been a teacher of elementary (reg. ed), one on one counselor of autistic children outside of a school setting (on weekends) and then taught learning disabled middle school students up until my ds was born (all together about 7 years) and ever since I also watch two other children ages 5 and 8 now. I also have always taken my two SIL's (who are 8 and 9) for the weekends (not every, but often enough) So, I feel I know children a little bit...and different kinds of children at different ages. Plus, I was a pretty screwed up kid myself, but I made out fine in the long run. Anyway, in my head, I am truly a child analyst/psychologist/counselor. In my head. And, here's what I make of the situation you are facing.

I think you are having more of a problem with the "betrayal" of the whole GD approach and not necessarily the behaviors. Which seems natural to me, for someone who has put a lot of faith, time, and energy (mental and physical probably...???)

Let me first say, I am a fan of many GD ideas. I think it is great mostly for the "pre"vention of things, but sometimes not great for "inter"vention, if that makes sense. Again, just my opinion from experience. But I have also learned never trust any idea or theory so much that you feel going outside of that way of thinking may be harmful to a child's development. However, as you are realizing, GD is more based on theory than anything, and when it comes to an intense kid in a hard situation - in the moment, GD can leave a parent feeling lost - and therefore, the child is then lost as well because the parent is confused about how to handle X, Y, Z...ykwim?

I think it may be beneficial to you to sit down with dh and come up with a set way to handle X, Y, and Z. Yes, despite the move. Despite the feelings, etc. I know and understand that. But, as well as being a sensitive parent - which you already are and your dd knows that (don't forget that part), you must also be a teacher, her guide. I think you must try to figure out ways that will teach your daughter what she can do, what she can't, where she can/can't do them, and what the outcome will be for her when she does (positive and/or negative). I think it is so important for a GD "follower" to allow themselves to use their own parental sense when it comes to a child who might not be "typical" or they risk becoming an enabler of many unwanted and unhealthy behaviors.

You must come up with something (I mean an immediate response, possibly a consequence, maybe - but not sure, I am not there and I am not you) that is standard for certain behaviors. And stick to it, because I think a child like yours needs YOU to teach her the boundaries - she is basically communicating to you that "I am not in control, and I need some help getting some". She just doesn't realize it. I WAS your dd (not a move, but my mom got cancer when I was 5 and died when I was 9). Those years and many following, I truly WAS your dd. To my dad, to any adult. And everyone just tried to be sensitive to me and my behaviors because of what I went through losing my mom. Or, a basketball coach of mine was just super hard on me -the opposite. If I gave a dirty look to a referee for a call I didn't like, he sat me the rest of the game and never spoke of it. No one helped me to get control. No one stopped me, no one set strict limits on me while letting me know they cared about my feelings of anger at the same time. And, I got worse. I respected no adult or authority figure. Until 7th grade, I met a teacher who not only understood me, sympathized with me, and talked to me - but set rules and consequences that SHE FOLLOWED for me. I needed that so much, I cannot begin to explain. She was the first adult who I respected because she did both. She changed my life and I have always loved her for the way she knew to respond to me. Its been over 15 years since I sat in her English class, and we still keep in touch today.

Point - Some kids need a lot of structure, rules, and consistent response to certain behaviors or they WILL not be able to get control. That is, in addition to the sensitivity, time in, understanding of reasons for behavior, etc. YK? Its just the truth. If the authors of all the GD books said that to their followers, they don't really have such a great theory anymore, right?

Not every kid fits into the box for whatever the reason. You gotta deal with your betrayal feelings first and then open your mind to various other sensible and practical discipline (which comes from the word "disciple" meaning TO TEACH) practices. Then you will be able to help her.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

I guess I feel that, if I had instituted a more clear "action/consequence" pattern from a younger age, she wouldn't have felt so free to hit, kick, and spit at me. I am an in tune, attached mother; I don't need to be hit/kicked/spit at to understand that she is struggling. I still would have been working with her to deal with the adjustment. I still would have worked to help her. I probably would have had more energy and patience to work with her *more*.

You can't know that. I've struggled with this thinking too, and what I now realize is that I can't know that doing anything differently could've helped more or really changed anything.

I've felt, at times, fooled or betrayed by proponents of GD who seem to suggest that there's one way to do things that will work (and by work, I think I mean bring peace to our home pretty consistently, or allow us to solve any problem we face reasonably quickly, or...something). But I realize now that life is not that simple, parenting is not that simple. Sometimes, there is no obvious right way, sometimes we can't know right now if we're doing the right thing, sometimes it takes a long time to see progress...and none of that means we've done it wrong. Life is messy. Sometimes kids go through things and it might really be that nothing we could've done differently could've made things different.

And does "what I could've done differently" or "if I'd done this maybe things would be better now" really matter? No, not for me, not really. Not anymore. What's past is past. What matters right now is doing what my children seem to need right now. And sometimes that doesn't seem to quite match with what I've thought is the best or right or ideal way to parent, but....if there's one thing I've learned as a parent it's that what I *think* is the right/ideal/best/perfect way isn't always what my child and our family really need. What matters is right now, this child in front of me right now, our needs right now. So if my child needs more structure, if I need to coerce her to go calm down somewhere to keep her and the rest of us safe, if sticker charts help her cope with her anxiety...that's what matters. It's about doing what my kid and our family need, in as respectful and gentle a way as possible. There's no recipe for that. I'm winging it every day. Sometimes I have to change my approach, given my child's needs and challenges (and my own, I have plenty of flaws and shortcomings to work around), even if it isn't comfortable at first. And I'm getting comfortable with that.

I think you're doing great. It is hard. I do feel for you, I've been there in that crisis of "faith" so many times. (eta that I do think that there is so much that fits under the umbrella of GD-from time outs to sticker charts to consensual living. It's a broad thing. There are so many approaches, so many tools at our disposal that still fit under the GD umbrella. I know that's probably not a popular view, but it's what I think is true.)

[sunnmama]

So much wisdom and reassurance here....I am reading (and re-reading) and taking it all in, but am not able to post more right now. But this thread is helping me a lot. Thank you so much for these thoughtful responses

[Thao]

Please don't feel like you have to leave the GD camp to do what you sense is right for your daughter. Remember that Alfie Kohn does not define GD. It is a very wide spectrum, and there are many GD parents on the "stricter" side. GD hasn't failed, but maybe it's time to investigate more structured GD approaches.

Also, I have felt exactly the same way you have, wondering if I expected too little of my dd when she was younger. Of course sledg is right, that second guessing the past does no good, we just need to start from where we are at and work towards the future. I've decided to look at it as a matter of transitioning my expectations to match her age. I mean, a 3 year old having a temper tantrum when she is mad is understandable; a 6 year old, not so much. If I look at it that way, it just means I have to change what I'm doing now because it's time, because she's older. Some kids naturally follow their parent modeling; others it seems need more external motivation/assistance. I have stricter expectations for dd's behavior now (she's 7) and her behavior has been slowly improving. I think she was a little confused at first, but we've talked about how when one grows up one takes on more responsibility for themselves and their actions, and she gets it.

I really really sympathize with your feeling of helplessness at not being able to fix the problem for your daughter. We moved to another country and dd has had a terrible time fitting in the school system here. It's been tough. But I have been taking the approach of using this as an opportunity to teach her about overcoming difficult circumstances, turning lemons into lemonade. That's a skill she's got to learn too. She's actually learned a tremendous amount of social skills here, simply because making friends is harder than it was back in the US.

[sunnmama]

I have been thinking a bit more, and I do think that dd needs this structure. I do believe that more structure, with parent-led limits, is just what she needs right now, for whatever reason. And the best thing I can do for her and our family (and ME!!!) is to honor that need and do what works best for us.

And I think I now understand why I was struggling with that so much.....for me, this is similar to people who want to breastfeed, plan to breastfeed, work *really hard* to breastfeed,....and then for some reason it doesn't work for them (medical issues, whatever). Or the person who wants a vaginal birth, plans for a vaginal birth, works really hard for a vaginal birth....and then ends up with a cs for whatever reason.

That is me and unconditional parenting. Ever since reading "Kids are Worth It!" when dd was 2, I thought that was *the way* to parent. That is the ideal. And then I read Alfie Kohn, and I was in love. But you know what? It isn't the best for dd. And that makes me sad! I think the truth is, it would have been the best way for *me* to be raised. I would have really thrived in that kind of environment.

So I think I am mourning a bit of a loss. My ideal is not dd's ideal, and that makes me sad. But it is good for me to understand that I was holding onto that ideal *for me*....not for dd. And what is important is what is best for dd. That doesn't mean that I will not be a GD parent, of course....I just need to be more flexible in my definition of GD, and also aim to be as gentle as possible in providing dd the structure she needs.

THank you all so much for the thoughtful replies. It really helped to read them all.

[mom2tatum]

I think you hit the nail on the head with that post. You're going to be fine...and so is she. keep us updated. Good luck and follow your instincts.

[chfriend]

sunmama...if it helps, my dd1 has sometimes been agreeable to periods of greater structure/routine. And I build some into our lives with the celebrations of seasons and daily living. (dd1 can't think at all in the morning. We came up with a list of possible breakfasts, a menu, if you like. It wasn't a long list. For a while, I just read that to her. Then I made what she wanted.)

We agreed that mornings would look like a, then b, then c. We agreed I would sing specific songs.

She definitely has an easier time knowing what to expect and having most mornings look a lot alike. We started with the breakfast agreement, then expanded out from there.

And I focus on calm and rhythm as we start the day. And make high protein breakfasts. It's not unusual for her to have fish for breakfast.

There's nothing in UP or any of the philosophies that I've read that say *you* can't add structure to *your* life to make *yourself* more comfortable. And my kids come along for the ride, 'cause they like to be with me!