ADHD and unconditional parenting

[gaialice]

I have recently read the "Ten Guiding Principles for Raising a Child with ADHD" (reproduced here http://www.almaden-institute.org/articles )

The "ten principles" are taken from a book by Russell A. Barkley, but I haven't read his book, just this excerpt. I was really really struck by how the author says that - while in general it is a good idea to avoid punishments and rewards and encourage the child mature instead an inner sense of satisfaction while doing good - this approach will NOT work with the ADHD child.

I wonder if this is true in general of kids who - while not being ADHD - are partiularly intense and do not easily conform to parents' demands?

I also wonder.... UP as a philosophy is very near to my heart and mind. Rewards and positive reinforcement do not appeal to me at all. I do not like the idea of buying a person's behaviour. Yet truly, my kids react well to positive reinforcements, and it is curious how many behaviours which have received reinforcement persisted well after the reinforcement was forgotten... (reinforcements that I have used were non-material ones: like a system of written acknowledgements of progress towards an agreed goal and a high five for reaching the an agreed goal - for example). What should guide me? My inner belief or what I see....

[BellinghamCrunchie]

What I remember from AK is not that he was saying rewards and punishment don't work, but that they CAN work, often quite well - but at a cost. The cost being at best, only a lessened ability to be intrinsically motivated, and at worst (when punishment is used) hidden anger and hostility and a loss of attachment.

Only you can tell if your kids are looking more and more to you for external validation when they could be feeling proud of themselves, or instead of experiencing the joy of whatever activity they are doing.

I personally think (especially after having read the threads of adults who weren't praised as children who almost uniformly wish they had been praised at least occasionally and felt that their well-being as adults suffered as a result of never receiving praise from their parents) that there are occasions when praise is the right response. Especially if it is given not to control the child but to celebrate with the child, or to express genuine admiration, or pride, or to encourage.

Also I don't think DD is going to successfully potty train without some kind of positive reinforcer : At least not before college.

[gaialice]

Thanks BellinghamCrunchie. The fact is, I am actually thinking about using praise and rewards to change unwanted behaviours. So, yes, to control behaviour. This is what I do not like - but at the same time - I feel might actually work very well with my kids.
I mean if - for whatever reason - my kids keep acting in a way that disappoints me and my dh (not in general, there are specific instances like dinner for example) even if we continue to be gentle and loving towards them, they will not feel proud of themselves. They will feel they let us down, won't they? So, for some specific situations, I am really thinking positive reinforcement (in a systematic way, not the occasional bribe) may really be needed to tilt change. Yet, I so do not like this

[LynnS6]

I think that some children do need an external reinforcement, especially when it's something that they aren't inclined to do themselves.

Our kids both needed rewards for pottying. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

Our son (who has sensory issues) was not able to calm himself down, and so when he was out of control, we had to do something that looked a lot like time out -- keep him in his room until he was through with the rage. Usually we could not stay with him because he was hitting. He's better now, but age 3 was really, really rough in that regard. Our dd, who is sensitive but doesn't have the disorder part, CAN do a 'time in' where she either goes to her room to calm down or where she sits on our lap to do it.

Because ds doesn't have a good internal self-regulatory structure, sometimes something tangible (like stickers for a reward) can really help him conceptualize what he needs to do. I would imagine the same would hold true of kids with ADHD - because they also have self-regulatory issues.

I'm also a firm believer in adjusting your parenting to your children's needs, and that includes discipline. Even without our son's sensory issues, our two kids need very different discipline. Dd often needs me to spell out exactly what I will do if she does not quit swinging from the towel rack NOW. Ds (if he ever considered swinging from the towel rack), would get down with a guilty look when I said "stop. please get down." Dd will keep swinging until I physically remove her and bar her from the bathroom.

[seawind]

Just curious- since there exist reward centers in the brain itself, why is using rewards (when justified of course) a bad thing? Isn't that using psychology to work with physiology?

[hippymomma69]

I read through the list and I very much disagree with the negative consequences part....I don't think they are necessary and neither do the specialists who work with my DD.

My DD has suspected ADHD (also, APD and SPD) and her special needs preschool uses ONLY positive rewards. They ignore negative behavior (unless it's something like hitting - where they might physically separate a child but stay with him/her) and use lots of praise and positive rewards. For example, if one child is not sitting in their seat, the teacher will praise the other children for sitting well and give them a "gold star". Usually the non-compliant child will then sit down. (when they get 10 gold stars, they get a prize - usually something sensory-motor).

Personally I *hate* this system. BUT I can see where in a class full of little kids with lots of issues and problems paying attention, this is WHAT WORKS BEST. My DD LOVES the positive reinforcement (she also loves the structure which I personally hate). She's always been a sponge for praise - but now she's learning to associate with THINGS which I detest.

The problem, as I see it, is that these theories were all developed for classroom settings - with a number of kids present. I think things are very different on a one on one basis and where "mamma love" is involved. My DD understands that things are different at home. It makes me sad, but I know that sometimes she prefers the utter predictibility of her school environment. She knows what needs to be done there and she can earn positive rewards for doing "x".

I'm sure that at home it's much harder for her. But I'm trying to create a place for her where she can develop her coping skills on her own without external positive rewards. She has alot of power over her personal schedule and doesn't expect "rewards" for helping with chores or doing helpful things - only a thank you. I'm trying to give her more verbal praise and encouragement, because I see they mean alot to her (especially after reading the recent thread on this!)....and for keeping her on task, we use reminders alot (I'm also going to give visual cues a try - like a picture schedule - because I've read that this is so helpful to ADHD kids!)

Anyway, what I'm saying is, that there is no doubt these things WORK. They are based on sound science, etc. But the issue is in how you wield it. What is the final result you want? If you want a child who is immediately obedient, then go for it. If you want a child who self-regulates, you might need a "blend" where you do some light-handed positive reinforcement at first to help teach your child positive skills - then taper it off as it becomes second nature. That's what I've sort of chosen. Mainly because my child cannot just develop these skills on her own like a normal child - she needs lots of examples and practice (as I imagine any high-needs child would).

I would just be wary of creating an environment that is reward based with *things*...I just think it's harder to get out from under and it doesn't really foster a feeling of love, necessarily. I prefer praise and positive words....

sorry if that's rambling but I hth
peace,
robyn

[seawind]

Originally Posted by seawind

Just curious- since there exist reward centers in the brain itself, why is using rewards (when justified of course) a bad thing? Isn't that using psychology to work with physiology?

Bump.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by seawind

Just curious- since there exist reward centers in the brain itself, why is using rewards (when justified of course) a bad thing? Isn't that using psychology to work with physiology?

Seawind, the idea is that by using rewards the child is conditioned to do "x" not because he understands that doing x is good, not because he understands the implications of his actions, but just because doing x will get him a sticker or whatever. I guess you can understand from how I am phrasing this that in fact I have used rewards very little thus far. But I am reconsidering what I am doing in part because - although my objective is not for my kids to be robots who will do whatever I say - I can see that they need more structure in terms of doing the same things every day in the same way, and they really do not appear to be developing an internal motivation to do so, no matter how hard I am trying. Sorry, no time to write more, will write again tonight

[Thao]

My about that philosophy is that it makes it an either/or proposition: either the kids does it for the reward with absolutely no understanding of the moral implications, or they do it only for moral reasons with absolutely no expectation of positive reinforcement. I just don't see that our minds work in that way. At least not mine.

I mean, would any of us here say that being praised at work somehow negatively impacts our work performance? Or if hubby praises our cooking at dinner it will cause us to cook only for praise rather than for our family's health? That's kind of absurd, isn't it?

Sure, manipulative praise with absolutely no discussion of morals would be harmful. But I think one can use age-appropriate positive reinforcement while at the same time explaining to kids the moral reasons for the desired behavior. Then taper off the reinforcement as the kids grow into the behavior so they are left doing it for moral reasons alone.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Thao

I mean, would any of us here say that being praised at work somehow negatively impacts our work performance? Or if hubby praises our cooking at dinner it will cause us to cook only for praise rather than for our family's health? That's kind of absurd, isn't it?

When a behavior is already established, praise is more like a "thank you" than a "that's right; do that more frequently." Most adults already have the motivation for those two behaviors (cooking and working) already established. Praise isn't needed to create or increase those behaviors because they already exist. When we talk about praising children we frequently do it to develop behaviors that we want. The behaviors aren't fully developed yet. They (children) are still learning. Using praise as a teaching tool may interfere with the development of a person's own enjoyment of the behavior.

Incidentally, I do not like being praised and it would negatively affect both my work performance and my cooking, probably, when I am around that person (not at other times). When someone praises you, they are saying, "I'm in a position to judge you as good or bad and I'm telling you that you're good; isn't that great???" I would prefer not to be judged. On the other hand, if someone appreciates my work performance or my cooking, I would be pleased by a genuine, "thank you." But don't try to tell me who I am by placing a value judgement on my behavior.

[babygrace]

i sometimes feel we make life more complicated than it ought to be. while i understand how praise might be used as a manipulative tool with children, it's whole another story as far as adults are concerned. praise is the natural progression/reaction to appreciating/admiring someone or his job. why should this reaction be misconstrued to be something other than what it was intended to be, is baffling.

[wonderwahine]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I think that some children do need an external reinforcement, especially when it's something that they aren't inclined to do themselves.

Our kids both needed rewards for pottying. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

Our son (who has sensory issues) was not able to calm himself down, and so when he was out of control, we had to do something that looked a lot like time out -- keep him in his room until he was through with the rage. Usually we could not stay with him because he was hitting. He's better now, but age 3 was really, really rough in that regard. Our dd, who is sensitive but doesn't have the disorder part, CAN do a 'time in' where she either goes to her room to calm down or where she sits on our lap to do it.

Because ds doesn't have a good internal self-regulatory structure, sometimes something tangible (like stickers for a reward) can really help him conceptualize what he needs to do. I would imagine the same would hold true of kids with ADHD - because they also have self-regulatory issues.

I'm also a firm believer in adjusting your parenting to your children's needs, and that includes discipline. Even without our son's sensory issues, our two kids need very different discipline. Dd often needs me to spell out exactly what I will do if she does not quit swinging from the towel rack NOW. Ds (if he ever considered swinging from the towel rack), would get down with a guilty look when I said "stop. please get down." Dd will keep swinging until I physically remove her and bar her from the bathroom.

I think its best to default to what your individual child needs/responds to best, every child is different, and IMO a parenting theory is just that, its a theory, and its not made for specifically your child.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by hippymomma69

I read through the list and I very much disagree with the negative consequences part....I don't think they are necessary and neither do the specialists who work with my DD.

I agree with that, Robyn. The part of the list that I am considering using is actually the "positive reinforcement" part.

Originally Posted by hippymomma69

She has alot of power over her personal schedule and doesn't expect "rewards" for helping with chores or doing helpful things - only a thank you.

How did you get her to do chores in the first place? Did you start with rewards and tapered off?

Originally Posted by hippymomma69

Anyway, what I'm saying is, that there is no doubt these things WORK. They are based on sound science, etc. But the issue is in how you wield it. What is the final result you want? If you want a child who is immediately obedient, then go for it. If you want a child who self-regulates, you might need a "blend" where you do some light-handed positive reinforcement at first to help teach your child positive skills - then taper it off as it becomes second nature. That's what I've sort of chosen. Mainly because my child cannot just develop these skills on her own like a normal child - she needs lots of examples and practice (as I imagine any high-needs child would).

That is what I am struggling with, exactly. Thao made a good point that praise/rewards can be combined with explanation of why doing x is good and hopefully the latter is what is going to "stick" in the long run. I agree also with Lynn, we need to adapt our discipline to the needs of our children and if my children - similarly to Lynn's kids - don't have a good internal self-regulatory structure as of yet I perhaps ought to give this a try.

Yet, it does not ring right with me. I think what BellinghamCrunchy says is true. I am judging my kid on her ability to (for example) sitting through dinner for at least 10 minutes by giving her a sticker. The thing is, it seems to me, if she only for a few days tried to sit through dinner, I would do my best to make dinner interesting and fun and a nice time for everyone and if the stupid sticker makes her stay for a few days, then she might learn to appreciate it? :

Thank you, it is an interesting discussion

Actually, we've been working on dinner a lot recently. We had a lot of family meetings. Then I started noting down how things were going. After dinner, when we were having quiet time in bed, I would read out my notes (which were only a description, no judgement). They were not pleased. Then I explained, explained, explained, why I cannot enjoy dinner if they do not sit, if they talk too loud etc etc. Finally, I wound up saying I would not take them to a restaurant on Sunday because they make me too embarassed when eating out. Eventually, last night, we had a peaceful dinner. After dinner, my dd2 handed me the book where I note things down. She said "please write down we had a good dinner". I wrote, and I read what I had written and she was very pleased. She said "do I get a star?" I wound up saying yes.... she knows about stars because we had a little girl from dd1's class over this weekend and she explained to us how her mommy uses the stars and we discussed this in great detail with the girls... in the end, perhaps babygrace is right I am making this too complicated

[Magella]

I don't like the idea of using rewards either. Not at all. But you know when my dd was having obsessions/compulsions around going to the bathroom, and a simple trip to pee took 15 minutes and a lot of tears, and she was miserable despite all my best attempts to respond properly...well, we (with some inner reluctance on my part) tried a sticker chart at the suggestion of her psychologist (and with dd's input and agreement). It wasn't a reward for "going pee without compulsions or crying," it was "you get a sticker every time you *try* to cope in this other way." And you know what? It helped my child. A lot. She can go potty again without being miserable (and she only used stickers for a week-months ago). It was one step toward learning a new coping skill. I'm glad we did it. Did it fix all of her anxiety in one fell swoop? No. It was just a step along the way, but it was an enormously helpful step.

I think whether or not rewards/positive reinforcement are harmful has more to do with how often (and just how) they're used. I think it would be harmful to give rewards/reinforcement in a "good job breathing!" every few minutes kind of way, or to give rewards without giving information about why to do things a different way or how to do better (I mean, it's not great, imo, to just reward "no hitting"-it's so important to discuss *why* we don't hit and how to cope and solve problems instead). But when it's not the overall tone in your family to reward, when it's used to help with the occasional sticky spot, and it's used with respect, explanation, guidance, and genuine positive feedback....it's probably okay.

[Thao]

When a behavior is already established, praise is more like a "thank you" than a "that's right; do that more frequently." Most adults already have the motivation for those two behaviors (cooking and working) already established. Praise isn't needed to create or increase those behaviors because they already exist.

Actually, Bellingham, I do think praise and rewards are used extensively in the workplace specifically to encourage certain behaviors. Think about the "employee of the month" photos in the supermarkets and stores. That's praise, given out as a result of certain behaviors. Or financial incentive programs, which reward employees with extra money for meeting certain criteria. Naturally most of us are motivated to work, but we are not always motivated to do all of the specific behaviors the employer desires of us; being on time, working overtime, bringing in extra clients, whatever. So the employer develops an incentive program to reward/praise the behaviors they specifically want to see.

With your personal feelings about praise, I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to use it with your kids. I have to say I don't respond that way, though, I just feel warm and fuzzy when someone gives me praise for something I did well (assuming it is heartfelt, not fake). Maybe I'm just shallow.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Thao

Actually, Bellingham, I do think praise and rewards are used extensively in the workplace specifically to encourage certain behaviors. Think about the "employee of the month" photos in the supermarkets and stores. That's praise, given out as a result of certain behaviors. Or financial incentive programs, which reward employees with extra money for meeting certain criteria. Naturally most of us are motivated to work, but we are not always motivated to do all of the specific behaviors the employer desires of us; being on time, working overtime, bringing in extra clients, whatever. So the employer develops an incentive program to reward/praise the behaviors they specifically want to see.

With your personal feelings about praise, I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to use it with your kids. I have to say I don't respond that way, though, I just feel warm and fuzzy when someone gives me praise for something I did well (assuming it is heartfelt, not fake). Maybe I'm just shallow.

Maybe I'm talking about a particular kind of praise. I'm not sure. When I was working with children with autism, I was pleased and touched when I was voted "Best Teacher" by my peers. But when someone said something like: "You're an amazing teacher! How patient you are! You're a godsend to these children!" I felt more like puking than pleased

I guess the difference for me is when someone comments on something I've done, I can appreciate that - but when they comment on who I am, it almost feels like a violation. I remember early on making a mistake with one of the kids by saying, "I'm so proud of you for telling the truth when it was so hard" and the child spit on me and said, "YOU have no right to be proud of me. I'm in charge of me, not you." If I had said, "I really admire the way you told the truth when it was hard" I think the child would have better been able to receive it.

In our attempts at increasing desireable employee behavior by using an acknowledgement program, we found that the good employees stayed good and the less-motivated employees stayed less motivated. The "Positive Staff Recognition Program" didn't change the behavior of many employees (MAYBE the good ones got even better). But it got frustrating when it was time to vote and we'd have conversations like, "Not him AGAIN! He just got it two months ago!" "Yeah, but he always deserves it - he's a great employee."

My SIL is a public school teacher and she told me several years ago about how they instituted a "positive rewards" program for the kids. If a child went all week without displaying problematic behavior he got a ticket to be excused from class on Friday to watch a movie in the gymnasium. She said the kids liked the program but it didn't really change anyone's behavior. The "good" kids - the ones who never got into trouble anyways - got to see the Friday movies... and the "bad" kids, who had a history of problematic behavior - never got to see any movies. It could be there are flaws with the program but in general the trends of these positive programs are pretty much no change.

Now I'll bet if the "reward" was strong enough it might change behavior - I could see even the weakest employee being motivated by something like: "If you are chosen as best employee you will receive a whole year off at double pay."

But when the reward is increased enough to change behavior in that context, it sure feels slimy and manipulative and controlling to me, as though someone performed surgery on my brain and attached electrodes to the pleasure centers. I would probably dance like a puppet to whatever tune they played because the reinforcer was so ridiculously strong - but underneath that I imagine I would have great hatred for the people on the other side of those electrodes.

Boy did I get off-topic! Sorry. Behaviorism is one of my favorite subjects.

[Thao]

It's really an interesting perspective, Bellingham. I just don't respond in the same ways you do. One of us must be defective.

I suppose the workplace incentive programs tht really works are the financial ones. There's no doubt but that those work, or else corporations wouldn't be using them. But it does seem to me that simple praise -- genuine praise -- is part of good managment skills. I used to manage and I remember always being aware of pointing out things I liked about an employee's work before moving on to the things that needed improvement. It made the whole process go down much easier, KWIM?

Maybe bottom line is what you said, that there are lots of different kinds of praise. Praise in the workplace is different from praise in a school which is different from praise from a loving mom. Manipulative praise is different from heartfelt praise. To me it's too simplistic to just say it's all bad. I think babygrace got it right, we are making it all too complicated.

[woobysma]

Originally Posted by Thao

Maybe bottom line is what you said, that there are lots of different kinds of praise. Praise in the workplace is different from praise in a school which is different from praise from a loving mom. Manipulative praise is different from heartfelt praise. To me it's too simplistic to just say it's all bad. I think babygrace got it right, we are making it all too complicated.

I agree with babygrace, too. The praise thing is one of the issues I have with UP. It just doesn't sit right with me to view all, or even most, praise as negative. Maybe it's my definition of praise, though. When I "praise" my kids or DP, it's not manipulative, it's just me showing my appreciation - either for an accomplishment they've made or help they've given me, etc. I guess I'd see it differently if I was using it as a tool to get them to bend to my will, but it's really not. It's a recognition of something that was special to me or something I know was special to them. Simple as that.

DS1 has ADD and I've found that he needs positive reinforcement even more lately because he gets discouraged really easily, especially at school. Ge gets bogged down with the details and will let one bad day totally bring him down. DP and I use praise to remind him of all the things he's accomplished and keep him motivated.
I can't even imagine what it would be like for him if DP and I subscribed to the "no praise" policy.
Take spelling, for example: DS has a hard time focusing, so studying his spelling each week isn't easy for him. DP sits with him every day after school and they do quizes and work through his list together. On Fridays, he has a verbal spelling test in class. His teacher reads each word, the kids write them down and it's timed. It's hard for him to keep his focus and not lose track.
Imagine if he brought home his spelling test last week and it was a perfect score and DP and I just glanced at it and tossed it in the recycling bin. No "good job", no "I'm really proud of you"... nothing. : How is that helpful... ?

Now, sure, you could say that his sense of accomplishment shouldn't depend on our reaction, but he's 10 years old and we're his family, for cripes sake.

[L'lee]

Interesting discussion!

I think that something that we need to consider is how the child is percieving the interaction. I'm not a fan of praise, but a bit of genuine excitement about something that really pleased you and your child is healthy for both of you. I think part of the difference is this: are you treating your child like an equal or a subordinate? Looking at the spelling test example: saying "you did really well, here's a gold star" is a judgment that I see as unnecessarily patronizing and encourages the child to do well for external recognition. On the other hand, saying something like "do you feel proud of your spelling test grade?" and encouraging discussion might promote more internal motivation.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

Maybe I'm talking about a particular kind of praise. I'm not sure. When I was working with children with autism, I was pleased and touched when I was voted "Best Teacher" by my peers. But when someone said something like: "You're an amazing teacher! How patient you are! You're a godsend to these children!" I felt more like puking than pleased

I guess the difference for me is when someone comments on something I've done, I can appreciate that - but when they comment on who I am, it almost feels like a violation. I remember early on making a mistake with one of the kids by saying, "I'm so proud of you for telling the truth when it was so hard" and the child spit on me and said, "YOU have no right to be proud of me. I'm in charge of me, not you." If I had said, "I really admire the way you told the truth when it was hard" I think the child would have better been able to receive it.

YES! I totally agree with this, and what a profound thing that kid said. I was thinking how I like it when people come over for dinner and say, "Oooh, I love this dip! What's in it that makes it so good?" THAT makes me feel warm and fuzzy. But I've also had people tell me, "You're such a great cook, Sarah!" which I'm really not, and then I feel really uncomfortable.

This doesn't really help you, gaialice, with your dilemma. Sorry. I will say that I personally would feel very uncomfortable offering my children rewards for sitting still for ten minutes at dinner. But I do agree that it would be preferable to them constantly feeling disapproval from you and dh.