Circumcision and the Military

[quinnsmum]

This weekend, my family and I were having a discussion on how my DS' Dr pulled back DS' foreskin, : and it led to all things circ. My uncle who is a vietnam war vet talked of how they almost required circumsicion for admittance into the military because of all the problems/infections etc that intact men were having and not being able to keep 'em clean during combat. Of course we were interupted by who knows what and I never got a chance to discuss this with him in detail. Anyone care to discuss this or have any thoughts on this?

[Arduinna]

Amazing how all those Europeans where intact is normal managed to still keep all their parts in wartime. Did all of Europe come home minus their foreskins? I think not.

Bottom line is that circ was/is the norm in the US and that is the only reason it was pushed on GIs

[Maluhia]

I've met unCirc'ed Military Men - even before DH

I certainly see from the Military Wife standpoint that the Military Hospitals are teaching hospitals and the teachers are, old school. You have to be ready to fight (at some, not every) at these hospitals for what would be a medium standard of care elsewhere (no merc in vaxs, etc.) so I could see lots of Moms who went with the flow as parents never even being asked, just assumed, that the kids would be circed.

And phoey to the idea that a healthy intact human body would be more prone to infection at war. Phoey on them.

[mamasophy]

My FIL was in the Army during WW2 and he says that a lot of men were made to get circ'd then. He is Jewish so was already circ'd. My father is intact and was a merchant marine - never heard of "forced circs" or the inspections that were required (can't remember what this was called - anyone else??). When I did the radio interview with George Denniston a caller (older gentleman) talked about how the Army made men get circ'd. Another opinion I heard on this is about the "terrible infections" men were coming home with after WW2, fighting in the trenches, etc. and that is a reason infant circ was pushed. I believe it was a bit of extreme nationalism myself - the "dirty enemy" in WW2 - Japanese, German - were all intact and a "good, clean American man" would be circ'd. Just my analysis (and simplified at that). But what happened to the European soldiers? Did they get infections? Were they all circ'd? I suppose all the Eurpopean countries adopted RIC??Hmmm...makes one suspect that the motivation behind the push for circ wasn't based on good health.

[lovesdaffodils]

My DH is former military, and when we were first pregnant and asked a nurse at the (military) OB clinic about circumcision, we were fed the BS about the military formerly requiring it because it was so unclean during combat. I'm actually really pissed about the propaganda that she spread to parents who were looking for the truth. (Thank goodness, we didn't stop asking and reading after that!)

[pantufla]

My father was 18-19 and in the Navy during WWII. He got some sort of infection (from riding around in the back of a garbage truck, he says) and they circ'ed him. I have never asked a lot of questions -- but my mother insinuated that this was a good reason to circ my boys. : :

[kxsiven]

:

Uh huh - wonder how we Europeans manage to fight intact?

Not to mention those Asians and South Americans in those hot jungles.

[ColoradoMama]

My dad and his three brothers were intact and all were in the military. They were in the military from WWII through the Vietnam War collectively. None ever were given a problem about their being intact.

[Dave2GA]

Former Navy officer here from the 70's. Still intact. Absolutely no comment ever made by anyone in the Navy. Saw intact men of all ages, one of whom served in the 1930's. Perhaps individual commanders somewhere pushed circ, but I certainly never saw any evidence of it. A number of men volunteered for it, usually because of pressure from their wives, but I never ever heard it encouraged. I know a former Navy urologist who says that phimosis was disabling for enlistment, but that circ itself was never a requirement.

[jessjgh1]

One of my parents friends were very supportive of me leaving ds intact. It was great, and I'm sure it shut my mom up quicker than otherwise, although I ahve no doubt she would have quickly come on board. Turns out the husband is intact and they left their boys intact.

He did mention to me that when he was in the Navy circumcisoiin was offered up and he knew a lot of men that took it. He refused and had no problems/regrets actually. He's probably 53/55.

As for how men can deal with combat situations... this has come up before. The suggested ration/conserve water care for intact penises is to build up pressure in the foreskin while peeing and then release-- using the urine to flush the system out and minimizing the need for water.

And if you think about it, women would be at a more severe disadvantage in this type of situation (water shortage).

Jessica

[paquerette]

I have heard some insinuation that the "uncleanliness infections" were STD's and the circ's were sort of a punishment. : I think it's a different story depending on who you ask.

[4chunut1]

Originally Posted by mamasophy

My father is intact and was a merchant marine - never heard of "forced circs" or the inspections that were required (can't remember what this was called - anyone else??).

I am a retired military officer, and endured a few of these inspections myself.
They were called "short arm" inspections, and consisted of a medical corpsman inspecting the genitals of all the men, and retracting the foreskin of those not circumcised. The purpose was to check for STD's. If you know the military, you can imagine the comments/conversations that took place during these events
Everyone got one on induction into the military services, and at other times (a short period after shore leaves or liberties) when the men might have been exposed to STD's . Circumcisions were offered the intact men, and some chose to get them on the false belief that circumcision would reduce the chances of getting a STD. I don't know of any military man who was required to get circumcised however.
My son was born in a military hospital in the late '60's, and was routinely circumcised, without me or my wife being consulted.

[mamasophy]

Originally Posted by 4chunut1

I am a retired military officer, and endured a few of these inspections myself.
They were called "short arm" inspections, and consisted of a medical corpsman inspecting the genitals of all the men, and retracting the foreskin of those not circumcised. The purpose was to check for STD's. If you know the military, you can imagine the comments/conversations that took place during these events
Everyone got one on induction into the military services, and at other times (a short period after shore leaves or liberties) when the men might have been exposed to STD's . Circumcisions were offered the intact men, and some chose to get them on the false belief that circumcision would reduce the chances of getting a STD. I don't know of any military man who was required to get circumcised however.
My son was born in a military hospital in the late '60's, and was routinely circumcised, without me or my wife being consulted.

Thanks! Maybe the Merchant Marine was different than the other branches of the military during WW2? I only know that my 82 year old father wouldn't have given up his intact state for any reason - and he was 16 when he ran away from home, lied about his age and joined up. And about your son's circ - as you said, you weren't given the choice. Even if by some chance he had been left intact, the trend then was for overzealous retraction and "cleaning" so he might have become a case of "HAD to get circ'd later" kwim? You're a good dad and your son is lucky to have you with him on this path in life!

[Papai]

Originally Posted by 4chunut1

I am a retired military officer, and endured a few of these inspections myself.
They were called "short arm" inspections, and consisted of a medical corpsman inspecting the genitals of all the men, and retracting the foreskin of those not circumcised. The purpose was to check for STD's. If you know the military, you can imagine the comments/conversations that took place during these events
Everyone got one on induction into the military services, and at other times (a short period after shore leaves or liberties) when the men might have been exposed to STD's . Circumcisions were offered the intact men, and some chose to get them on the false belief that circumcision would reduce the chances of getting a STD. I don't know of any military man who was required to get circumcised however.
My son was born in a military hospital in the late '60's, and was routinely circumcised, without me or my wife being consulted.

Ugh. I can't believe it's not illegal what the military hospital did to your son. I'm sorry for him and for you. : You must've been stunned.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Papai

Ugh. I can't believe it's not illegal what the military hospital did to your son. I'm sorry for him and for you. : You must've been stunned.

In the '60s it was done in civilian hospitals too.

My dad was in the airforce during the Korean war. They offered he declined. One of the others took them up on the offer of a free circ, and was very unhappy afterwards.

[pantufla]

Originally Posted by 4chunut1

My son was born in a military hospital in the late '60's, and was routinely circumcised, without me or my wife being consulted.

This is what happened to my DH. His father was intact, and in the military. DH was born in a military hospital. But his mother didn't speak English very well. They just came and took the baby and brought him back circ'ed. :

[hakunangovi]

I have wondered about this. Trying to find out where the 'tradition' to circ in my family started, I once asked my uncle if my grandfather had been circumcised. His answer was "Well, he was in the military". This was around 1900 as he fought in both the Boer War and WW1. I was a bit embarrassed asking, and to my regret now, I never asked what he meant. I can only assume that the British also pushed for their soldiers to be circumcised. I did read somewhere once , that this started during the British occupation of India , where some soldiers were captured and circ'd by force. I seem to recall that they were called "clipped cocks" , or something like that.

[jauncourt]

I have to wonder how much the push for "cleanliness" to avoid STDs had to do with this. It may have been based on how bad the STD infection rate was in a particular area, and if it was high, then it may have been a blanket order.

I know my stepdad wasn't circumcised (because that played a big part in my mom's decision not to circ my brother), and I have no idea about his father (and I'm not going to ask ). Either his father was, during the war, and that played a part in his decision not to circ my stepdad, or he wasn't, and they didn't see the point and told the doctors no...

Maura

[elanorh]

My sister who circ'd her only son and I were talking about this last night (I don't know how it came up) -- I told her that we were still planning on an intact son if we ever have a boy, and the conversation went from there.

Her ds is circ'd because "his dad is," but mostly because although she (an RN) knew at the time that the research didn't show benefits of circ, she had an RN coworker who'd been at Desert Storm who told her about "all the adult circumcisions that they had to do, and how awful they were," so they circ'd their son.

I told her I hadn't run across that in my research, but had run across some references to how upset some of the men who'd been circ'd were about the sexual results for them afterwards; and that I figure, if I have a son I hope that he can keep himself clean and doesn't go to war. I don't want to plan his life assuming that he will go to war (even assuming the 'war' argument is correct, which I don't think it is).

Anyway it was a good conversation - she said, "We didn't know as much then as we do now," and I told her, "I know, it's a journey isn't it?" I think if they had another son, they wouldn't circ (based on our conversation). Which is GOOD, because although that's not going to happen for them, that means that hopefully she can advocate with me on the anti-circ front with other siblings who are expecting (we are from a large family).

[mere2hayden]

Originally Posted by paquerette

I have heard some insinuation that the "uncleanliness infections" were STD's and the circ's were sort of a punishment. : I think it's a different story depending on who you ask.

This is what my dad (retired military) told me and he is intact. He said "saying that it was required" is just an excuse. They don't want anyone to really know WHY they were circ'd!