What's a CL solution to this situation? - Page 2

[WuWei]

Isn't that bribing?

I only consider it bribery if I wouldn't agree to the "thing" unless ds agreed to what I wanted first. If it is conditional upon doing what I want, I consider it a bribe. Personally, I don't believe that moving *toward* something more appealing is bribing if it isn't held as a "you have to do this in order to get that" condition. If the item that one is moving toward includes doing some task, that sounds like a win/win to me. (like leaving the park in order to go get ice cream---there is no ice cream at the park)

IMO, helping a child to get what he wants because you *want* him to get what he wants, is not a bribe; it is a partnership. Being a partner with my child is a goal of facilitating him *to get what he wants*. I trust it also models consideration of other's desires and needs. Just because something is desirable, doesn't mean it is a bribe. I want our son to have things he desires!

I believe the issue is was it mutually agreeable to stay? If not, then finding a way to make it mutually agreeable to stay is a common preference. But, because I value whatever ds wants to do when he asks for help, I believe he is more inclined to value whatever I want when I do ask for help. There is no consequence or experience of having something important to either negated. There is no compulsion of bribe or incentive to act. He *chooses* to regard what I need as important. Just as I *choose* to regard his wants/needs/desires as important. It is a whole different dynamic of valuing other individual's own priorities, not just my determination of what is the priority for me, and thus for them.

Do you see the dynamic is one of choice?


Pat

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by chfriend

chinaKat...I'm certainly not a perfect mother...I take a lot of inspiration from the NVC and CL folks as well.

You know what's funny is that I'd never in a million years describe myself as a CL parent... yet the CL threads in this forum have *totally* changed my approach to parenting. CL may not be a theory I can embrace all (or even most?) of the time, but at the same time it's profoundly affected me, and I think just knowing some of the techniques (even if I don't always use them) makes me a better parent.

And I *really admire you* for bailing and going home rather than continuing when it wasn't working. That's always a struggle for me.

Thanks. I felt like such a LOSER on the drive home, like I couldn't achieve this ONE SIMPLE THING I set out to do, so I appreciate the compliment.

[laoxinat]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Pat, I love the fact that you are so good at thinking creatively and preemptively about your parenting. I wish you were *my* mom, you sound like so much fun!!!

:
OMG I was just reading another thread and I had the EXACT SAME THOUGHT!
I want Pat to be my mommy! (never mind that I am probaby old enough to be hers )
laoxinat

[ktmama]

RE: waiting it out and who's in control....I utilize this strategy a lot, especially considering that my 27 mo needs about 10 - 20 seconds to process information or a question. It's clear to me that while I'm waiting for her to decide or be ready to go somewhere, it's actually HER that's in control.

[gaialice]

One practical solution, Chinakat is to buy an Ipod shuffle (if you do not have one already) and pack it with nice songs or stories on tape that dd can listen to. I have been seen in museums parking my girls tied to the Ipod in room after room after room while I was watching the pictures and they were listening to their stories....

But taking your question a bit further down the line, the thing with driving back home is really, it is not consensual. I have backed off on my demands quite a few times. I just was not able to negotiate a mutually agreeable solution so I gave up on what I had originally wanted to do so many times. And yes, I can be proud I did not yell or lay a guilty trip on them but... but... I can't help feeling resentful. And, like I was saying today in my other thread, how does that make dd feel? Will she feel proud to have had her way, and in fact caused mommy a lot of extra work she did not need? I am thinking about this recently. Ideally, a consensual solution can always be found. But there are times it just cannot be found. And in truth, for the child it is a discomfort to go up the stairs and sit there for 10 minutes, but for the mom it is a major hassle to have to drive all the way back.

[abac]

chinaKat, one of my best tools in situations like these is to ask ds what we can do. I would ask him directly, "What can we do to make it easier for you to come with me," or "I want to go in and you don't. What can we do so that we both get what we want?"

More often than not, ds comes up with a suggestion that works for both of us. Often, just asking him for his opinion and input is enough, and he will happily come along. Like, he might suggest, "We can go and I can push the buttons on the elevator." Often, it's something I've already suggested and he has said no, but when HE suggests it, it's okay. Knowing that his input is considered and helpful makes a big difference to him. I learn a lot from him by asking for his input.

We also race a lot when he doesn't want to go somewhere. Racing makes it fun.

[JulieK]

I have no clue if this is "CL" or not. Probably not, but I will share a few things that work for me and some that don't with my 3 yo (and you're making me nervous since I'm expecting my second in the next few weeks).

If ds is tired, I can really forget getting him to agree to walk nicely somewhere and be agreeable. At that point, it's best not to attempt anything. I know this is old advice that is not news to you, but I even forget this sometimes and try to accomplish something when it's really the wrong time for ds. So, if your daughter was tired, I can't think of anything that really would have helped.

As far as what does work, I often say things like, "You can come with me nicely by yourself, or I can come and get you/help you/carry you/hold your hand. If I have to do that, I will be too tired to ______" - fill in here with whatever your dd likes to do at home - with us it's reading books. It is kind of bribery, but it's also true - if I'm wiped out from dealing with him, I really will be too tired to devote lots of energy at home. So, I tell myself that it is a natural consequence to his behavior (sort of).

I also do things like letting him carry his toys - he seems to like to choose which toys to bring and it becomes a kind of currency. It gets him in and out of the car seat and gets him walking. If he gets distracted, I take it away and say that it seems to be too difficult to concentrate on walking and carrying the toy, and then I give him another chance as soon as possible.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by gaialice

But taking your question a bit further down the line, the thing with driving back home is really, it is not consensual.

Oh, it most definitely was not.

I was seriously, seriously unhappy about it! But, I was stuck and really couldn't figure out anything to do but go home. After reading this thread I realize I should have just waited her out, but I was sort of in a snit and I think that if we hadn't left I probably would have taken it out on DD.

If my back hadn't been hurting I would have just picked her up and carried her upstairs (not consensual either but IMO the lesser of two inconveniences by a LONG shot), but it wasn't an option and I just didn't know what else to do.

[crb]

Hi Pat!

It is so funny to read about CL and bribery - which is what I felt about it when I first started reading and now I have such a different opinion!

I would just add that you had put a lot of (mental) limitations on the situation already - you HAD to do it this day and at this time, you MUSTN'T inconvenience the office workers or ask for special treatment or help (and I must say, to have a building that is not handicap accessible seems that it should require flexibility on the workers part - what do they do if someone in a wheelchair needs to turn in papers?), you MUST do it in person. Perhaps your daughter sensed that you were closed to discussion and didn't feel really heard at that moment. Not that I don't often have things that I think are musts and shoulds - but I think the CL idea is to look past that, see the real truth and find a solution - if you are bogged down with a thousand reasons something won't work or conditions which must be met fully and completely on your timeline, it is unlikely you will find a solution.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by crb

I would just add that you had put a lot of (mental) limitations on the situation already - you HAD to do it this day and at this time, you MUSTN'T inconvenience the office workers or ask for special treatment or help (and I must say, to have a building that is not handicap accessible seems that it should require flexibility on the workers part - what do they do if someone in a wheelchair needs to turn in papers?), you MUST do it in person.

Well, in my world deadlines are real, not figments of my imagination.

And the part where everybody else on earth must accommodate me because my kid doesn't want to do something is where CL falls right to pieces for me. "Hello, um, I'm standing outside your office building right now and I'd really appreciate it if somebody would come downstairs and help me, rather than my going upstairs like everybody else. Oh, you've got twelve other people waiting in line for your help? That's okay, I'm sure they won't mind you just nipping out for a sec." :

That's not a mental limitation on my part, that's the real world. Frankly, some office worker doesn't give a crap if my kid is screaming her head off or not. And he shouldn't have to - it's certainly not his problem. And would be insanely presumptuous of me to think that it should be.

Seriously, this errand was no big deal... paperwork needs signatures all the time, and lots of things in this world are time-sensitive. It's certainly not unheard of to have to do this sort of thing. I don't think it's too much to expect that I be able to walk into a building with my children.

But... now it's my fault I couldn't get it done, because I clearly didn't think outside the box. Yup, that's why I can't totally wrap my mind around CL.


ETA: sorry, that's a bit of a rant. Not entirely directed at the PP, but more a general extension of some of the discussions I've previously had on this topic...

[crb]

No - sorry - totally didn't mean to imply that you didn't do everything you could at the moment. I think even leaving could be consensual - if you leave with a feeling of "this is not worth it for me right now, I'll do this later" rather than "@#$% I can't believe I couldn't do this one little thing! Children are ridiculous!" (and again, I don't know if I could get in that place myself!)
I really don't know what I would have done - probably had my own tantrum!

Just trying to put out the idea that it is really difficult to come up with a CL solution in a moment when you are feeling very pressured - by your own expectations, by your thoughts about what other people are thinking, by your thoughts about what others would or wouldn't think of you if you asked for help, by your impressions of your child's behaviors and whether or not they are making too big a deal of a situation.

I'm no CL guru, but I really admire the ability to keep things in perspective and deal with what is actually real instead of what I perceive to be true in my stressed out, socially diplomatic, self-sufficient mind. If you are too focused on why this won't happen and "I can't possibly try that" I think it becomes much harder to come up with option - you see only A or B, black or white, stay or go.

Truly just trying say it is tough, and a lot of it is working it out in your head.

[chfriend]

chinaKat....I really do admire you for bailing...but just food for thought. If I was the office worker, I would give a crap. If someone managed to call up to the office to say, "I have a stroller, and I can't get up to the office. Can you make a suggestion?" it's a possibility that they have a protocol. Never hurts to ask.

And yes, I do think that you deserve extra consideration for managing with little kids. I think people should let you cut in line in the women's room if your kids are about to pee the floor. I think that people travelling without kids should let you get on the bus first. I think people should offer you a seat on crowded public transport. I think people should be extra special careful with you because you are someone's mother and working your behind off.

I hope someone does that for you today.

[monkey's mom]

such a great thread!

the last few posts (and some real life stuff lately) really underscore the difference betw. asking and "letting" the answer be whatever it is, and asking in way that is really more about commanding and not being open to the other person's response.

i think that ends up being a "sticking point" in these discussions b/c for some folks, asking does kind of equal telling, you know? But when you're so used to living in a way that accounts for other people's wants/wishes/needs, there's a ton of asking that has nothing to do with telling--it's much more like information gathering or something.

Like the other day, my friends were over (not GD or AP), and their son was trying to get the toy my son had. And they were telling him to stop and that my son was using it. So I asked my son if their son could have a turn with it. And they immediately jumped in--"No, no, he doesn't have to give it to him!" And I was like, "Uh, I know. That's why I ASKED." And I kind of had to explain it a couple of times like, "No, I *really* am asking him if he WANTS to share. If he doesn't that's OK, we can figure something else out. But, let's at least ASK." (And, of course, while we were having the conversation, he happily handed over the toy--which NEVER would have happened had I TOLD him to do it! He's two! LOL).

And that's kind of how I think the suggestion to call the office and see if someone could come down gets jumbled up.

Because, really, calling and saying you've got a stroller and can't make it up the steps is a valid problem. And asking them if there's an elevator or a person who could come down or some other solution is really OK. I'm sure if they didn't want to come down, they wouldn't!

[WuWei]

:

Do you see the dynamic is one of choice?

Pat

[Emmom]

I don't know if you do this or not, so forgive me if this is useless, but:

I just wanted to add that lately (after reading P.E.T.), I've found a lot of help in relating with my 2 yr old from doing some "active listening" when he's upset. I mentally 'stop time', get down on his level, and reflect/listen with empathy until he's able to get some upset feelings out. Once he's cleared the air emotionally, he's usually very happy to help me find solutions. Often it turns out that his needs are not exactly what I thought they were, which is invaluable knowledge in the attempt to get both our needs are met. On the other hand, when he's still in the turmoil of those emotions, if I look for solutions, it's just that--it's ME looking around for ways that I can get past the hard moment, and HE'S still stuck in the moment.

I'm sure this is much, much harder with two (and I'm about to find out, in February, *gulp*), and I know it's really hard under a deadline. Just today ds melted down when I went into work with him to complete a quick (in adult time-frame, anyway) project before a deadline. He's usually happy there, but he was tired and I've been working a lot lately, so he's been craving more time with just us. I had to close my eyes and take deep breaths before I could let go of my social embarrassment and deadline-head-space enough to listen to him--so hard!

Usually it turns out for me that a few minutes of completely focused empathy and listening to him is well worth the time it takes, and I'm often pleasantly surprised to find him willing and eager to meet my needs along with his, and to find myself more aware of his experience and more willing and eager to meet his needs along with mine.