argh. I'm so fed up with this -- am I just expecting too much?

[mamaduck]

I had a horrible night last night. My 3 yo seemed to have tantrums all night long. We were both sleeping peacefully this morning, and time-wise could have stayed in bed another hour, but my 6 yo came crashing in, yelling at me to get up and make his breakfast! I tried to hiss under my breath that we'd had a hard night and needed more sleep, but he just stood there loudly arguing with me until the 3 yo woke up, and I had to get up with him to take him potty. Meanwhile, my 6 yo went downstairs to the kitchen and I could hear him shouting "MOM! Mom! Mom!" the whole time I had the 3 yo in the bathroom.

I'm so tired from last night, and so fed up with my 6 yo. He does this *every* morning that he is up first. I've talked to him about it until I'm blue in the face. I know he likes a toasted bagel for breakfast, but I've told him repeatedly to grab something cold like fruit or yogurt to tide him over until I can cook his breakfast. There is no reason for him to starve while he's waiting. He is also allowed to turn on PBS and he knows how to work the VCR. And of course, he has umpteen billion toys and craft supplies at his disposal. I've laid all this out to him more times than I can even count!

But its like he doesn't care in the least. Yes, I get mad at him, but then he gets his breakfast and my company and the day goes on. So I guess in his mind, its not that big a deal to wake us up. He doesn't care that his brother and his mom didn't get enough sleep, and that both of us will have struggle now to get through the day cheerfully.

I realize he hates to be alone, but in 2 months he'll be 7 years old. To me, that seems old enough to spend an hour alone. Am I just being unreasonable? What can I do?

[untomySelf]

mamaduck

How about he toasts his own bagel and puts what he wants on it himself?

My son is only 3yo, but my niece who is 7 stays with us weekly and she is up early and does this herself.
There are safety switches that you can get if you are worried about the electrocution factor...
Would that work?

[mamaduck]

Only if I bought a new toaster. I do it in the oven.

I think he'd still wake us though. Often my dh gets him breakfast, and he comes and wakes us as soon as dh has left for work.

Dh says that we need to cancel our afternoon plans and "rest." And that would be a logical consequence for ds, since he looks foward to the stuff we plan. I realize it makes sense -- but its just that the little guy and I were looking foward to it too, and we'll ALL be dissapointed. We had planned a picnic at the pool and then a free class at the craft store this afternoon. In the end, missing out would punish me the most -- its hard to be shut in with kids all day long.

[lilyka]

If it were my dd she would *not* get her bagle for breakfast. if she wanted something to eat one way or another she would just have to get it herself. Anything but a toasted bagel. There is no way she would be getting what she wants after using such bad manners to ask and doing specifically what i asked her not to.
That way she would also get used to finding somehting cold and handy to eat and aquiring a taste for it.

As for the still waking you up, I am stuck. Changing your afternoon plans does suck. Does he get an allowance? have money in the bank.? One book I read suggested making him get and pay for the sitter since his behavor made it impossible for him to come along. At the very least, even if you have to pay for it making him stay home with the sitter who was less than playful(lets face it if she was a riot it wouldn't go too far towards discouraging inappropriate behavior),while you and his brother go out and have some fun, would be enbough of a consequence that it might lead him to think twice before waking you. After all since you fdidn't get much rest you only have enough energy to deal with one of the boys today. another option is just sending him to his room as soon as he wakes you until the time you were planning to wake up on his own. then he isn't rewarded with social interaction for his misbehavior. And hopefiully being banished to his room will not only make him think twice but also encourage him to find different activites for him to do while you are sleeping. it may still take a while but eventually he will get it.

good luck. this sort of thing would send me through the roof.

[Britishmum]

I don't think you need too complicated a consequence, like not going out in the afternoon - I'd think that's too distant from the actual incident. But I'd say that I don't do breakfast until, say, 8 oclock, and stick to it. If he woke me before that I'd go somewhere with your 3yo to 'rest' quietly until 8, calmly telling the 6yo that you can't do anything until the agreed time.

In the end, I think he'll get the message, if you are calm and consistent. I'd also say that if he talks to you rudely, you are not inclined to do something for him. Making him come back to practice the appropriate way of asking at 8 oclock, then exaggerating your willingness to get his bagel, might help the message sink in. I think often children need to physically practice doing something right, and receive the mega-approval for doing it.

Maybe set an alarm for the time that you will cook bagels? So he knows not even to ask before that?

Or organise him to do it himself - how about a toaster for his birthday? Or doing chores to earn the money for one? That might help him to become more independent without being in trouble regularly for waking you up.

[Cloverlove]

Not to get woo-woo, but is ds a libra? Libras are extremely social and get to know themselves through their relationships with others. I know *independent time* for ds has been a real struggle for you. Not that this offers any concrete suggestions, but maybe some perspective?

There is such a difference between changing behaviors and personality traits. I've found that consequences, logical or not, are not very effective for influencing the latter. I think *tools* are more appropriate for the situation- such as practicing, role-playing, etc. Britishmum had some good ideas.

I'm not sure how you feel about incentives, but maybe offering a book or activity or something that marks how big and independent he is getting (if he is consistent) could help?

[geekmom]

I love the alarm clock idea. I have an early waker. He doesn't actively try to wake me up he's just not all that quiet in the morning and since he can't tell time I can't tell him to wait until 6:30 or whatever to get up and move around. I'll set it for when it's an appropriate time to move around and then he'll feel like he has a limit to how long he has to be quiet.

As for your 7 year old. It is totally reasonable to expect him to play alone for awhile even if he's very social. I like the idea of just not interacting with him until the desired time. Perhaps say that if he talks to you before the "time" he'll get cold cereal and if he waits untiil the right "time" he can have anything he wants (that you're willing to make).

Then I would have you and he set up an activity perhaps on the kitchen table the night before that he can do quietly in the morning. At his age make sure he at least chooses an activity out of a bunch that you offer, but better is to have him come up with something on his own (just good practice for him to confront boredom later). Set it up on the table so he can quietly tip toe out of bed in the morning and play quietly until everyone else is up.

[mamaduck]

Thanks for the great suggestions. I talked to him before bed tonight and went over all the options he has in the morning, but asked him firmly not to come in my room to wake me or his brother up in the morning.

He asked, "What time can I wake you up?"

I told him he is not allowed to wake sleeping people up, period. I'm not going to give him a time. I told him that I am aware of our schedule, and its my own responsibility to get up at a reasonable time, and it is not his responsibility to decide what is reasonable for me or to enforce it.

He was really unhappy with my lecture. He made it clear that he feels fully entitled to wake someone up to keep him company in the morning. He told me that he was lonely after being up for TWO hours this morning! Heh. His perseption of time is WAY off. He was asleep still when dh left for work, and he woke us up demanding breakfast only 45 min. later.

I know part of the issue is that he finds me and his brother sleeping in bed together every morning, and he feels left out. The trouble is, he is an extreme morning person. He can't just lounge around in bed in the moring -- if I let him come into bed with us he would talk, and wiggle, and sing, and bounce.... Meanwhile, his brother and I really actually like to SLEEP pretty hard in the wee hours of the morning!

Cloverlove -- I have no idea what his sign is, but he definately knows himself best in relation to other people. He gets his energy from interacting with others, and it drains and stresses him to be alone. He can come out of a social or stimulating experience that would tire many adults, and he'll be beaming and content. But leave him alone in a room, even with books and games, and he'll be anxious and jumpy within 15 minutes.

We shall see what happens tomorrow morning.

[Sofiamomma]

heh heh I feel for ya Mamaduck. I got an early risin' extrovert, too!! This has been an ongoing issue from the beginning. I even had a TV in my room when she was a toddler and I was working the swing shift. She'd sit in the bed with me and watch PBS while I snoozed a little longer. I always swore up and down I'd *never* use the TV as a "babysitter"! HA! I do try really hard to limit TV time and video watching, though, and I certainly don't want her doing it *every* morning. We have a new little person in the house now though, so it has become more of an issue. It's by no means perfect, but this is what works for us. She can tell time. She has a clock in her room, which she bought with her own money. Seven is the earliest that she can get up. I think she sometimes wakes sooner than this, but will stay in bed and check the clock. She will play with stuffed animals, dolls etc. that "co-sleep" with her! hee hee I also set up the kitchen so she can safely get her own breakfast. I showed her how to use the toaster and the microwave, put glasses/cups in a cabinet where she can reach them. She has her own shelf in the fridge, and her snacks are in a lower cabinet. She also has juice and water in containers she can pour from. I boil several eggs at a time and put those in a separate container for her, freeze yoghurt into popsicles, showed her how to wash fruit, etc. She likes peanut butter sandwiches, warmed up leftovers, cheese and crackers, etc. I also made her a schedule and made different time slots like "before breakfast", "after breakfast", "during Ellie's morning nap", and so on. Every morning one of the slots says "art project." This structure really appeals to her and she loves her art supplies. I set up one of those folding 4 foot tables in her room with a cart of plastic drawers for all her stuff and she will keep herself occupied with that for a good bit of time. We also check out videos from the library (they are usually educational so I feel better rationalizing them to myself ) and she can watch one of those while Ellie and I are sleeping in the morning. Then I make sure that we do something where she can be social. I disagree that the afternoon is too far away to be a logical consequence. I have strongly stressed to Sophia that her waking Momma and baby sister up in the morning has serious repercussions for her: grouchy Momma! screaming, irritable, unhappy baby! And Momma certainly does *not* feel like taking anybody anywhere or doing any fun projects!!

[mamaduck]

Thanks Kara. Those are all certainly great suggestions. Ds is also expected to stay in his bed until 7:00, and he does - but just because he can leave his room does not mean that he can wake anyone up! Ds also has the tv/video option -- we always borrow a stack of eyewitness videos from the library and he loves them. He also likes to warm up leftovers and I also freeze yogurt! Maybe we just need to move in together so that sophia and ds can spend each morning happily in each other's company?

This morning went better -- but I think the main difference was that ds woke before dh left for work, and got to talk to him for a little while, and dh got to repeat the warning about not waking people up.

He ate a cold bagel this morning. He said it was "okay."

[granolamom]

When my son was around 6-7 he was a VERY early riser....5:30-6:00.... My husband is a contractor and leaves around this time

My ds is also one who does not like to be alone.....

What we did....
First....he had to quiely and gentley wake we up an say he was going to get his food and video and would be back...lThe night before we would pack a little lunch box for him ...inside would be..Granola, juice box, fruit, bagel, peanut butter and honey, things like that... there would also be a little note from me.....saying things like...."I bet you are proud you can ge your own breakfast" " I really liked the way you used the blue paint in your picture last night" " Thanks for pushing your sister on the swing yesterday, she really loved it" Stuff like that......

He also would pick out a video the night before and "quitely' come watch it in my room.....He was sleeping alone by this time but he would pull his sleeping bag into the room and watch a movie.
If I had time I would write a little scavenger hunt for the movie...such as....what color shirt does_____________ have on?
What is the name of the dog? What is the numbers on the mail box??Which fish do you thin is the longest,heaviest, fastest?"

He loved this and could stay in the room with the girls and me as long as he was quite...most often the girls would wake and be sitting wath ing the movie by the time I woke up around 7:30 or 8:00

It is amazing what that extra hour of sleep will do for you.......

After a few month of this the girls wanted lunch boxes too...It was great...I never had to make breakfast for years.....

Granolamom

[z-girl]

I don't have an older kid, so this might not make sense, but could you and he write out a sign together to post on your door to remind him of your agreement to not wake you to fix breakfast? Maybe a picture of him grabbing yogurt or fruit and you sleeping? He'd see it when he went to your room before waking you up, right?

[mamaduck]

We used to have a sign for naptimes -- when his db was littler. When we moved -- it got lost in the chaos. Thanks for the reminder -- we'll definately need to make a new one!

[Jane]

It seems like he got the idea that everyone is allowed to wake people up and now you're changing the rules for HIM. Is there something that convinced him he has the power to do that? Can you reassure him that it's a general human being thing and is not directed at him? Maybe brainstorm with him about what each person in your house would do...like, "If Dad were up early and bored, what would he do? Check the clock, get dressed, have a piece of fruit, read the paper until Mom woke up" and "If baby brother woke up early what would he do? Come find Mom or Dad because he's too little to watch himself" and "What would Mom do? Get dressed, putter in her garden, get a yogurt, and wait" and finally, "What would big brother do? Well, he's hungry in the morning and bored, so he should get a snack and find something to do: tv, art, fold laundy, read a book and wait" It's a different answer for everyone, but there's a theme, maybe??

Almost totally OT, why is it that two children from the same parents MUST be different? One seems to be an early riser and the other a late napper, invariably. Is it to maximize parent time? It sure is aggrevating!

[Sofiamomma]

Yeah, makes that whole commune style living very appealing, huh? All those early birds could keep each other company so they would not feel the need to wake the night owls for a chatting partner!

P.S. I am glad to hear I am not the only one who encourages my dc to entertain herself in the am, including with videos so I can sleep a little longer. I have always gotten tons of flak about this! (except from the other swing shift folks )

[mamaduck]

Well, dh is now arguing in favor of buying a pop-up toaster for him to use.

I am very nervous about this idea! Extremely nervous. I almost feel safer with the idea of a regular toaster oven. What if his bagel gets stuck, and he sticks his fingers in without thinking? Or what if he tips it over? Or lets a dishtowel fall into it? I just don't know if 6 is old enough to opperate an applicance that gets hot. Okay, he'll be 7 soon. But still.... I just don't feel comfortable with the idea.

[Jane]

My mother tells a funny story. When she was 4 and her brother was 2, they decided to make breakfast differently that morning. Since they liked peanut butter on toast, but liked the peanut butter really melted....uh, you might see where this is going!

Their dad got woken up with, "Dad? Did you know you can't put the peanut butter on the toast before you toast it?" I guess it took him all day to fix the toaster.

On a practical note, I have "toast tongs". They are big wooden tweezers for fishing toast out with no danger of electrocution. They have a magnet on them and stick to the fridge. I actually have two because I made fun of my mother's set. So then she sent some to me because now I can't make fun of then because I own some! Vermont Country Store carries them.

[rda]

Lots of good ideas here.

Honestly, I'd be very nervous about the toaster, too. My girls are 12 and 10 and they've only been allowed to use heat-producing appliances without me right there for a couple years. They're not allowed at all if they're in the house alone. I personally have known two people who have lost their entire homes to fires caused by toasters that were just plugged in, not even being used.

[z-girl]

When I was a kid (not sure how old, but it must have been under 7 because we moved after that) I almost caught our house on fire with the toaster. The fire dept had to come and everything. I think toasters are among the more dangerous appliances. Does he need it HOT or can it be toasted the night before?

[2much2luv]

*getting up to unplug my toaster right now.