Advice on 3 1/2 year old

[KBinSATX]

No, not mine. Somebody else/s 3 1/2 year old!
I've never had a 3 or 4 year old so I am totally in the dark in regards to what they can understand/comprehend etc. and are able to process.
Here's my dilemma. I really like this other mom in our playgroup but her son apparently deosn't like my son. The problem is that my son is only 17 months old. And he's very shy/cautious with other people. Because I love my baby and because he is so shy around others I really, really would like his interactions to be mostly positive.
My friend's son is 3 1/2. He pushes DS's things off, steps on DS's fingers on purpose, doesn't want DS to play with anything (not anybody's personal toys. I am talking public playground), etc.
I am having a hard time shielding DS from this since the older boy keeps following us even if we try to not get in his way.
So is there anything I can do for the older child to either just leave DS alone or perhaps even like him (although if he just stopped stepping on his hands, throwing his things away, etc. that would be sufficient).
What mental capacity does a 3 1/2 year old have to understand that the baby is no threat to him and that if he doesn't enjoy playing with him, he could just ignore him? Where are they developmentally?

[claras_mom]

Originally Posted by KBinSATX

What mental capacity does a 3 1/2 year old have to understand that the baby is no threat to him and that if he doesn't enjoy playing with him, he could just ignore him? Where are they developmentally?

A 3-1/2 year old should be able to understand those things perfectly. Interesting to me that he's seeking out your attention (and your son's) and then behaving this way....where's his mother in all this? Because usually what I'd expect to be hearing is the mom reminding her 3-1/2 year old to be gentle with "the baby;" to share, etc.

Dh once dealt with a little kid who was following dd around and then deliberately bumping into her and knocking her down by putting his body between them and saying (nicely but very firmly), "dd doesn't want to play this game." But the little kid was younger than you describe - I think they were both around 2 or 2-1/2.

[Nora'sMama]

This is a problem with the *mother*, IMO, not the child. I would certainly never let my 2-yo treat another child that way, let alone if she were older and treating a *toddler* this way!!

You need to speak to the dc's mom. You might say, "DC is not comfortable with the rough play. It's not OK for his fingers to keep getting stepped on and it seems like he is also not getting to play with what he wants to play with. I'm not comfortable with the aggression level." Or something like that, where you keep it as cool as possible while still making it very clear that this is unacceptable.

I had a situation that was *much* less disturbing but still bothered me - my friend's dd is the same age as my dd but much bigger than her and liked to push her down and hit her...it seemed to be all in good fun, but my dd was literally getting knocked down and seemed a little dazed by all of this. I did two things, first, I talked to my friend about it, but secondly, I just stepped in myself and said "Friend's dd, that is not OK. Nora doesn't like that. Nora, when [friend's dd's name'] pushes you or hits you, tell her you don't like it." At my dd's age she can start learning how to be assertive, but she couldn't have at 17 months, and I don't think even a preschooler should be expected to handle other kids' aggression on their own. Adults need to be constantly guiding and supervising especially when there is a large age or size or aggressiveness differential between two kids playing.

You need to show your ds that *you* won't tolerate watching other dc treat him this way. It may be hard to talk to your friend (or talk directly to your friend's ds, otherwise intervene, etc., or stop playdates if nothing is effective) but you can't let a kid bully your toddler right in front of you. If your friend can't step up to the plate and provide more guidance and supervision for her dc while your dc play together, and you are uncomfortable being the one to step in, I'd stop getting together for a while.

Edited to add: my dd is 2.5 and goes to a parent-participation class meant for 3-5 year olds. Many of the parents of dc in the class bring their babies or young toddlers as well as their preschool-age child. There has NEVER been an incident where one of the older kids treated one of the younger kids in this way. It is not "normal" and kids of 2+ *totally* understand that they are not supposed to treat others in this way. If they cannot stop themselves from doing it, the adult in charge needs to - period.

[greeny]

I agree that if the mom/caregiver isn't stepping in, you can/should. I like the idea of saying something like, "Jake, stepping on fingers hurts and isn't nice. We'd love to play with you, but please be gentle." Or "Jake, we're playing with this truck right now, but as soon as we're done, we'll give it to you."

I'm also curious about what the mom/caregiver is doing when this is going on.

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by Nora'sMama

This is a problem with the *mother*, IMO, not the child. ....Adults need to be constantly guiding and supervising especially when there is a large age or size or aggressiveness differential between two kids playing.

I agree with this.

I do think this can be normal 3.5 year old behavior. But the right response of the mother is to be right there, at all times, to quickly and firmly intervene when necessary. So MOM isn't doing the right thing here. I'd talk to her about it, in a nice way (if possible).

[KBinSATX]

Mostly she isn't noticing. When I do say 'x, please don't throw DS's toy on the ground' she does notice and does say 'x, please don't throw DS's toy on the ground.'
But then it's just on to the next thing.
I posted on this subject before and a lot of people said: "oh, you'll understand when you have a 3 year old. When our kids were small we always felt they were bullied by the older kids but now that our kids are that age we realize it's totally normal."

But it's really stressing me out and this type of interaction is neither fun nor helpful for DS. Since I've never had a 3 year old I wasn't sure if perhaps developmentally this is as well as they can do so I posted it again to get a better understanding.

[greeny]

I do think this can be normal 3.5 year old behavior. But the right response of the mother is to be right there, at all times, to quickly and firmly intervene when necessary. So MOM isn't doing the right thing here. I'd talk to her about it, in a nice way (if possible).

I totally agree, and I'm surprised that she isn't being more vigilant. When my kids have gone through not-so-gentle phases, I am always by their sides to make sure they're being nice. (Not that I'm a perfect parent - far from it - but to me it's so important to make sure that everyone feels safe and happy, you know?)

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by KBinSATX

Mostly she isn't noticing. When I do say 'x, please don't throw DS's toy on the ground' she does notice and does say 'x, please don't throw DS's toy on the ground.'
But then it's just on to the next thing.

I see this as the real problem. Mama isn't doing her job.

What I would do is be right there and intervene constantly. Be firm and aggressive about getting in between them. This may annoy the other mama, since you'll basically be (gently) disciplining her child. But SOMEONE has to, so unfortunately if it's not her it's got to be you. If it starts to annoy her, then she'll probably end up getting off her tushie and attending to her son. Which is what she should be doing anyway.

[Sage_SS]

Maybe its just me and my experience with kids, but I don't think that this kind of behaviour is typical of a 3.5 year old. I have three daughters, my youngest is turning 4 on Sat. None of mine have or would ever treat a toddler like that. They're all very attentive and very aware of younger kids. When my younger nieces are around, they tend to just hand over whatever toy is wanted by the little ones. They don't push or hit them, they outgrew that kind of behaviour when they were 2.5 - 3.
This is def. more about the mother's acceptance of what is tolerable behaviour for her child and this should be her problem. Have you discussed this with her yet? Alot of parents are very willing to listen and some are even reasonably concerned. Maybe she's just not aware of his propensity to act out to get your attention?

[Nora'sMama]

Yes, let me clarify my post. The not-normal thing is this being allowed to happen, not that it *could* happen with an unsupervised 3.5 yo. I'm sure many 3.5 yo's would act like this without supervision, though certainly not all of them. Sorry if it sounded like I was calling the kid in question abnormal - it's that he's allowed to do this that is not normal.

In the preschool class situation I mentioned above, there is a very rough little boy but since everyone is aware of him people (his mom, other moms, the teacher) act proactively and I've never seen him actually hurt another kid let alone be allowed to do that repeatedly. But I definitely think he would if he wasn't being watched. That tendency is probably within the range of normal, but if the adults just let him act on his impulses, that would not be normal or OK; that is what I was trying to get across. (Sorry, having a sluggish brain day)

[KBinSATX]

I talked to her and I think it went pretty well. At first she said things like 'boys will be boys' but in the end we had a really good talk and I think things will be better now that she's aware of it.

[peachweenie]

I hope things improve! If they don't, I'd find myself another playgroup with kids closer in age to your child. I think even with older kids, they get into patterns of playing that are hard to break.