What if you were uncomfortable with.. - Page 9

[karina5]

Originally Posted by honeybee

As a teacher, I am a mandated reporter. I've been to the trainings. It was drilled into my head that if I had ANY suspicion for ANY reason, I was mandated to report it. If I did not report it, I could be held legally libel. There were certainly many more red flags indicated here besides a "creepy feeling," anyways. Attitudes like this are why so many children have had to live with abuse. No one wants to risk "being wrong" or "getting involved." By reporting the facts to CPS, you are not accusing someone. You are saying, this was some concerning behavior. You give the facts. They decide what to do with it, and whether or not it warrants a visit. If you then gain other concilliatory evidence, you can again call and give those facts. Sometimes one report is not enough, but when there are several different reports an investigation can occur. There may already be a case against this family, and one more "red flag" can give someone the authority to act or open an investigation.

THANK YOU. I am a mandated reporter, and said the same thing, but you said it better! :

[Sage_SS]

I'll stand by what I said early on..

I think you should invite them over, get to know them and their family dynamics a bit better. Even if you do end up reporting him, its not like he'll know anything more about you than he already does. You really have nothing to lose, but knowledge is power.

And I have reported a family to CPS before. If I'm given reason to believe that the child is in danger, screw the parents and their social problems following my report. If they weren't crappy parents, they'd not have the problem anyway. I only report the problem, I don't create the problem. :

[Nature]

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

If I'm given reason to believe that the child is in danger, screw the parents and their social problems following my report. If they weren't crappy parents, they'd not have the problem anyway. :

I've written a few things and then deleted them because I honestly don't know what to say to this....

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by Nature

Do people normally let their children play at other peoples houses when they haven't met the parents first and gotten to know them? Because I know I don't.

Gotten to know them? How well?

My son just turned 11. He rides his bike or scooter all over the place, within about a three mile radius around town.

A couple of years ago, he discovered two brothers near his age who lived just down the street. Sure, i walked down there and met their mother briefly (we talked for maybe five or ten minutes, i let her know where we lived, told her to send my son home if they had other things to do, etc)...i didnt meet the stepfather that day. I did not tell my son "No, you can't play until i meet every adult in the home." Do you do that? How old are your kids? I did eventually meet the stepdad, and he seemed nice enough...but really, what can i tell in a five minute conversation? I relied on the relationship i have with my son, for him to tell me if anything "weird" was going on in that home.

My son's best friend lives across the street. We've "known" the stepdad for years, as he was the nice-guy bachelor that never got married...my sister knew him since elementary school, so no worries there. I talked to the mom for like five minutes (my sister had a more lengthy conversation)..i've never been in their home. They seem nice enough, but i wouldnt say i know them well.

How well do you get to know the parents of neighbor kids that your kids play with?

I can see a million scenarios that don't involve pedophilia or illegal activity.

Indeed, pedophilia/illegal activity seems to be the one scenario you dont really want to consider at all. Does this mom's instincts count for nothing at all? Really? Do you think when an entire group of people get creeped out by someone, its usually for no reason?

I think we should rely on the feelings of those who were actually in the situation...when i was in middle school, there was a teacher who would touch the girls. Nothing outwardly inappropriate...just a squeeze of the shoulder, "special attention", etc...if a teacher without the creep factor did it, it would be considered loving and supportive. But this teacher made the girls' skin crawl, esp the ones who were the target of his attention. For years and years this teacher was the subject of the kids' gossip/rumors, and yet nothing was done til probably twenty years later (when administrators started taking such allegations seriously)....i think there is something about our animal nature that allows us to pick up on "danger" vibes, and its REALLY important we listen to those msgs.



Katherine

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

I will never understand this either. That, and she is NOTHING like a ten year old. She is both incredibly immature, and incredibly mature all at the same time. They allow her to do things my 15 year old isn't allowed to do yet.

This is so sad....because (whether or not the neighbor guy is a danger)this girl will likely be a target now or in the future for someone who will take advantage of her situation (no supervision, gets in trouble easily, immature yet mature)....i hope her parents realize this and take steps to help prevent her becoming a victim.


Katherine

[Sage_SS]

Why are you having an issue with my statement? Since when are social issues more important than the safety and future wellness of a child?? What a disgusting thought.. :

A 6 year old girl came over to my MIL's on Christmas Day crying because her parents screamed at her to get out of the house and stay out. They had locked her out once, and she crawled through a window to get back in. They had been drinking all day and had been known to use drugs. So I called CPS. Do I give a rats a$$ if they had issues with the fact that I called CPS? Absolutely not! If they had treated their daughter with love and care instead of coldness and uncaring and not been so disgustingly selfish, I'd not have had to call.

If ANYONE ever had a reason to believe that our kids were being abused, I'd want them to investigate further too. Thats why I suggested inviting the family over to get to understand them better. As I said before, I do have experience in the fallout of an illegitmate claim of abuse. I know the ramifications of it, its not to be taken lightly.
Learn more.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by queenjane

Do you do that? How old are your kids?
How well do you get to know the parents of neighbor kids that your kids play with?

My oldest is 9, and I do get to know the kids and the adults she plays with.

If I don't know the adults, then she isn't allowed inside the home. She can play with other kids she meets, but only outside. Sometimes she has friendships that kinda just go that way and never progress. Other times she really wants to be able to play at their house, or have them come over here.. and I do make sure I meet the family first, visit their home, and get to know them. I find out what the parents do for a living, siblings, what the atmosphere is like, who lives there.. If I'm allowing my child to be in their house, under their supervision... I'm damn well going to know whos house she's at. I don't bring a clipboard and interrogate them, but I do bring a snack and visit and make sure I am available to continue a friendship with them. If the parent and I can't at least progress to acquaintance, then my kids don't play there.

She only rides her bike to the playground or to her aunts house down the street. Right now, thats all we feel comfortable with.

It does go the other way as well. I won't let other kids come inside my house to play until I've met their parents. Though I realize other parents don't always care, which I find sad and disturbing. Still.. they don't come in until I've met the parents and received their permission.

Originally Posted by queenjane

Indeed, pedophilia/illegal activity seems to be the one scenario you dont really want to consider at all. Does this mom's instincts count for nothing at all? Really? Do you think when an entire group of people get creeped out by someone, its usually for no reason?

As a survivor, pedophilia is pretty darn high on my list of concerns for my children. And I do trust my instincts, as should the OP. However, I don't think trusting your instincts means you have to turn a blind eye to everything else. Its okay to keep an open mind.

It seems many people don't want to think this father is anything but guilty of abuse. In the quest to save the children, I think sometimes we do jump too quick. I think we judge too harshly and do a lot of talk but not a lot of action. The statement, "it takes a village.." somehow I don't think they were referring to just picking up the phone and calling CPS as your contribution to the village. I tend to think it meant more hands on personal help. More willingness to get yourself involved.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

Why are you having an issue with my statement? Since when are social issues more important than the safety and future wellness of a child?? What a disgusting thought.. :

I have issue with this...

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

If they weren't crappy parents, they'd not have the problem anyway.

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

Learn more.

Excuse me?

[cycle]

Originally Posted by Nature

As a survivor, pedophilia is pretty darn high on my list of concerns for my children. And I do trust my instincts, as should the OP. However, I don't think trusting your instincts means you have to turn a blind eye to everything else. Its okay to keep an open mind.

It seems many people don't want to think this father is anything but guilty of abuse. In the quest to save the children, I think sometimes we do jump too quick. I think we judge too harshly and do a lot of talk but not a lot of action. The statement, "it takes a village.." somehow I don't think they were referring to just picking up the phone and calling CPS as your contribution to the village. I tend to think it meant more hands on personal help. More willingness to get yourself involved.

My bolding.

The OP and the other adults' instincts told them there was something off, it made their radar go off. She shouldn't ignore that. Feeling that in your gut that this child may be being abused and then sitting back and trying to get to know the family IS NOT listening to your instincts. Sorry, its not, regardless of how you put it, its not. If you have ever had that instinctual feeling like the OP had, like I had when I felt my niece was being abused - that was on nothing else then the abusers actions, that were much less obvious than this guy, and my gut feeling. It turned out to be true. Had I ignored my instinct and sat back and waited it could still be going on. Would it have kept the peace with my sil who protected her father, yep, would my brother and sil still be married, yep probably, but my nieces would still be being abused and that was not acceptable to me.

The OP isn't jumping too quick, if it was that obvious and she and other felt it that strongly she should react. If she were teacher, social worker, doctor she would be legally obligated to report it.

[Nature]

So you're honestly telling me you've never had that feeling and been wrong? Because I have. And I know others have been as well.

Trusting your feelings is one thing. Closing your mind off to all other possibilities and casting someone guilty based only on your feeling isn't right IMO.

I doubt arguing about this is going to change my mind on the matter. The OP asked for advice and I think she's been given a nice mix of advice from many points of view.

[Demeter9]

Originally Posted by Houdini

Interested to see the stats on this statement.

I wish there was stats on it. I doubt that anyone has done a study on it.

However, you may go out and talk to ANY people who lived in a place with a molester. A town with "that guy". Any sub-culture or group or neighbourhood. Where EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go.

Oh, it was just once. Oh, it was a mistake. Oh, he's "off" but not really that bad. Oh, they ask for it and he can't help it. Oh, he's misunderstood. Oh, I can handle him. I taught my children better. He didn't really mean to put his hand there, tickle her there, that boob-grab was an accident....etc. etc. etc.

Molesters and pedophiles are rarely unknown. They are simply ignored. They rely on your and my complicity.

When you out them, and try to point out their behaviour and compare notes and point out that everyone knows something about the person, everyone has seen something bad, everyone has watched him do it, people will actually fight you about it. Seen it happen numerous times now. I hear about it. I watch old ladies talk about it, and they'll ARGUE that no one really KNEW ....but every one of them has a story or ten about "that guy." And it'll be the same guy. But they don't KNOW.

I have no idea how you could study this phenomena. The one where people will tell stories about pervie-guy, and yet claim that no-one really knew at the same time. That sort of self-delusion doesn't lend itself to a survey of the people in the six-degrees around the pedophile convicted.

[cycle]

Originally Posted by Nature

So you're honestly telling me you've never had that feeling and been wrong? Because I have. And I know others have been as well.

Trusting your feelings is one thing. Closing your mind off to all other possibilities and casting someone guilty based only on your feeling isn't right IMO.

I doubt arguing about this is going to change my mind on the matter. The OP asked for advice and I think she's been given a nice mix of advice from many points of view.

No, I haven't had that feeling and been wrong. Its only been three times in my life that I have had that feeling, and all three times I, and others I found out after the fact, had a feeling to.

[Houdini]

Originally Posted by Demeter9

I wish there was stats on it. I doubt that anyone has done a study on it.

However, you may go out and talk to ANY people who lived in a place with a molester. A town with "that guy". Any sub-culture or group or neighbourhood. Where EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go.

Interesting theory....I completely disagree though. I have yet to see where there was a case where "EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go."

I have heard cases where people jump on the hindsight bandwagon and come up with several examples after the fact that all of a sudden 'make sense' when someone is arrested for molestation.

I am also personally involved in a case where NO ONE knew until the child revealed what happened. There weren't any accidental anythings to see and forget. EVERYONE is shocked and completely blown away this guy commited these acts.

[Sage_SS]

If the parent wasn't abusive in any way, the child wouldn't be in danger and no phone calls or reports would be made. Am I wrong here? I equate being an abusive parent to being a crappy parent.

When I said learn more, I was referring to the situation, as the OP stated it. Not you personally.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

If the parent wasn't abusive in any way, the child wouldn't be in danger and no phone calls or reports would be made. Am I wrong here? I equate being an abusive parent to being a crappy parent.

Innocent people are often reported to CPS. Are you saying that there are no innocent people? That if CPS was called on you it was *obviously* because you're a crappy parent... because thats what your first statement looked like.

Peoples feelings can be wrong sometimes. One creepy vibe doesn't make a child abuser. It makes a creepy vibe and heightened awareness. Maybe its something, maybe its not.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by cycle

No, I haven't had that feeling and been wrong. Its only been three times in my life that I have had that feeling, and all three times I, and others I found out after the fact, had a feeling to.

Perhaps this is where we differ. I have had that creepy feeling and had it be false. Or even had it be something inconclusive but nothing that progressed to WARNING WARNING! level. Additionally I've had the feeling and been right about it sometimes too.

[cycle]

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

If the parent wasn't abusive in any way, the child wouldn't be in danger and no phone calls or reports would be made. Am I wrong here? I equate being an abusive parent to being a crappy parent.

When I said learn more, I was referring to the situation, as the OP stated it. Not you personally.

Originally Posted by Nature

Innocent people are often reported to CPS. Are you saying that there are no innocent people? That if CPS was called on you it was *obviously* because you're a crappy parent... because thats what your first statement looked like.

Peoples feelings can be wrong sometimes. One creepy vibe doesn't make a child abuser. It makes a creepy vibe and heightened awareness. Maybe its something, maybe its not.

SS, many people around here think that CPS is always evil.

Nature, what SS is saying (I think) is that if someone reports it and there is nothing to it then nothing will happen. Case closed. If the girl says she isn't being abused, if there are no physical signs, thats it, its over.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by cycle

SS, many people around here think that CPS is always evil.

Nature, what SS is saying (I think) is that if someone reports it and there is nothing to it then nothing will happen. Case closed. If the girl says she isn't being abused, if there are no physical signs, thats it, its over.

I think CPS is pretty flawed. Evil? No. But certainly can be dangerous and risky. I think it needs to be rebuilt.

And being on the other end of the "nothing to it" case.. I can say it doesn't always get "nothing will happen" case closed.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by Nature

My grandmother was a very loving and very AP woman. (though I doubt she knew she was at the time) She was tuned into me. She was connected.

However, my father lived with us too. My grandmother was my parent, she took care of me. And my father molested me from the age of birth to 9. For NINE years he molested me. Not here and there either. Daily. And my grandmother had no idea. No one did. Not until I told someone when I was 9 years old. There was nothing to see. No creepy vibes. Nothing. And I might add, he was my biological father not my step father.

I believe you, i do. But i have such a hard time wrapping my mind around how an attentive parent could not know *something* was going on with the child. Because then what we are essentially saying, is that sexual abuse doesnt hurt the child in any obvious way, it doesnt change behavior, it doesnt cause any physical ramifications, the child never acts out...that there are no signs. How could there be no signs?

There was a terrible case recently that was in the national news, about a little girl caught on tape being raped by a pedophile, they tracked down the girl, turns out the man was somehow involved with the child's babysitter. The mother of the child says (its been a few years)she had no idea anything happened, and that the girl herself doesnt remember. I dont really "get" how you can drop your perfectly healthy well adjusted three yr old at the babysitter, pick her up a few hours later (after she's just been brutally assaulted), and not realize *something* is up with your kid? Maybe you wouldnt automatically jump to abuse...but something?

I guess i'm veering close to mother-blaming, and i dont mean to, honestly. But i can pick up on when my child has gone to a friend's home and come home with hurt feelings, even if he didnt say anything. I can tell when my child is not wanting to tell me something. I can tell when my child is feeling under the weather, or there is a cold or sickness coming on, and he's just not his usual self. So, for those of you who have been in situations similar to Nature's (child being abused, and mother or someone else close to the child truly doesnt know)....how is it that this happens? I always jump to the conclusion that if the mother doesnt know, its because she doesnt *want* to know, won't allow her mind to go there. Maybe some pedophiles are so incredibly slick they can cover their tracks well....but can the child herself do such a good acting job, 100 percent of the time?

This topic is so depressing.


Katherine

[Sage_SS]

I agree, it really is depressing.
To answer your question Nature, no I've never had those feelings and it turns out they were wrong. Thank gods I dont get them all that often to not rememeber the outcome of my creepy feelings tho.
I did mean that if there was nothing to the charge, then the parents weren't "crappy". Having CPS show up at your door doesn't scar your reputation for life. I'll even go out on a limb and tell you that its happened in my family.
If the friends or family don't accept that there was a misunderstanding, I don't think they thought that highly of the accused to begin with.

We're all about perception. My perception is different than yours, I accept that. If someone percieves my child to be in danger from me, I'd hope that that someone would dig a little further before calling me in. THAT is what I was saying. Innocent people are persecuted all the time, I don't know what else to say about that. But I believe that protection is the first priority.

What it comes down to is believing that a child is in danger and debating what to do about it. Like I said, knowledge is power. Do some investigating of your own. If it turns out to be what you thought, then call in the big guns.

This is clearly a very sensitive topic and due to its sensitive nature, emotions can become high and words misunderstood. These are the dangers of online communications.
Houdini and Demeter I just went back and read all the posts between you two and I think that you are both being general in your statements but then the other takes them personally. Your communications have become too distorted to keep clear and I hope you both take a step back, maybe reread your posts and try again to avoid someone becomming seriously offended and hurt.