What to do when they just won't stop.

[2much2luv]

My oldest dd is 3 and a wonderful little person. We are learning so much parenting her.
Anyway, one thing that sets both my dh and I off is when she is super crazy and will not stop.
For example, she will be climbing on dh or I, just kind of using us as a jungle gym. We do this alot, but after a bit it is just time to stop. YK? Now she is not always like this, but sometimes she will not listen to no, will not back off and just gets extremely aggresive and rough. Not hitting or anything, just frantically clambering on us so we can hardly get her off or get away. Most of the time she does well with, "1 more minute" or that kind of thing. But at times she acts like an insane person.
How do we get through to her? I try to get on her level but she grunts and pulls and won't look in my eyes. She just acts insane!!! It always comes down to threats, which I really really hate. "Do you need a nap?" (which is a really funny threat since I have never ever 'forced' her to take a nap) "Do you want to sit in the corner/go in the other room" blah blah blah...threats are so annoying, but we find ourselves constantly resorting to them when she gets like this.
ANother time she gets like this (really annoying) is when we are going somewhere and she has to get in her carseat. She bucks and whines and has an insane fit. Doesn't matter how long she has had to prepare or where we are going. If we were going to disneyworld she would have a fit over her carseat. : Here we usually resort to threats again. "Do you just want to stay home?" or if we are really at the end of our rope we hold her down and force the clips shut.
Anyway, how do you deal with this?
Thanks so much!
Beth

[khrisday]

What works with my dd is either standing up and getting busy (preferaby with something that she can help with) or distracting her with something (like pulling out a puzzle we can do together or a story to read or something)
We ha dhuge carseat issues off and on for several years- it's tough. Can she buckle it herself? My four year old can, and giving her the control over it seemed to help.

[liz-hippymom]

your three year old sounds like mine! my DS is NUTS some of the time- he does the climbing up my thing and also climbing on his 2yr old brother- he also has alot of well... ISSUES like the carseat think. i read this book called The Out-of-sync Child, and it was very informative. basically it talks about the child with sensory intergration problems. my son definatly has them, and your story sound familiar. you should look into it. hope this helps.

[bestjob]

I can say that it is incredibly important to teach your child that "stop" means "the end" because I have a bruise on my ankle tonight and a very bad feeling because the boy next door, who is five, didn't listen to "stop" and hit me with a hockey stick.

At our house, our middle son has a hard time with "stop" and we have had to work hard from day one to help him understand the following things:

1. It isn't negotiable. Ever.

2. An adult will hold you tight (bear hugs don't hurt) until you are ready to stop, even if it takes a long time, and even if you grunt, push, pull, and avoid my gaze. Eventually you will get tired of that, and I am a patient person.

3. We're not saying "stop" because we don't want children to have fun, we're saying it because something is wrong (danger, too much noise, hurtful actions to others) and behaviour needs to change. (We repeat this a lot because it is true but not always obvious to our son, who has been having fun doing the dangerous/noisy/hurtful activity.)

Another thing to think about is to stop using threats and start reminding her of the actions you are able to take and that you are willing to take. "I will leave the room if you keep hitting me." "If you continue to screech, you and I will have to go and sit in your room where we can't disturb other people." "If you continue to screech like that at me, I will leave the room." That puts your child in the situation where she either stops the obnoxious behaviour or is removed from the stimulus for the obnoxious behaviour.

Before you get to that situation, though, stop and analyze the situation. If climbing on you and your dh is fun in the morning, but leads to meltdowns after dinner, then act accordingly. "Nope, we're not going to start climbing because I'm tired from a long day. Let's go for a stroll down the driveway instead."

A great way to avoid deadlock with your child is to say "I need a hug!" and kneel down with your arms held wide. While you're hugging, you can quietly say, "This feels nice to my tired arms. They've had too much climbing."

As for the car seat, if she has the choice to stay home, it isn't a threat, it's an option. However, you have to be prepared to carry through, so don't say it if you're headed to something you think is important. If she must get in her car seat, think of ways to entice her. Let her play with the car seat in the house, and help her learn how to work it. Before you head to the car, ask her what toy should ride beside her and make a big deal about buckling the toy up as well (toys can use regular seatbelts because they don't have brains). Ask her to remind the toy about safety. You could even pretend the toy was giving you a hard time about the seat belt and get your dd to show him how well she can sit with her car seat done up. Around our house, gum (for kids over three years of age) has always been something we've enjoyed in the car, and I don't distribute it until after the car seats are buckled.

These are things that worked with my family. However, as I am rapidly learning, children from other families don't necessarily respond to them.

[woo27ks]

i am reading "The Secret of PArenting" by Anthony Wolfe.
it is so good. it's excellent. it has made the most sense to me. it's about no threats or punishments which i love because i hate the way i sound otherwise. i checked it out from the library then bought it at half.com. another one about temperments is "Raising your Spirited Child" - Mary Sheedy - another gem.

[khrisday]

Just a note here- if a child does have some sensory issues, the bear hug technique can actually reinforce behaviors. They may be craving the deep pressure of a hold.

[untomySelf]

http://www.parentleaders.org/article...ggression.html

HTH!

[bestjob]

khrisday, I am interested... we have a few sensory issues at our house, too.

Do you mean the bear hug can be used to reinforce good behaviours, or the aggressive (ie unwanted) behaviour. Is it a matter of presentation? Please write more. I need to know.

[2much2luv]

What a wonderful bunch of advice. Thank you all!
I will have to check out some of those books. The look interesting.
We have done a sort of bear hug before to try to calm her. But we just hold her beside us or on our lap. It just felt wrong though, if we are against physical punishment, to hold her and keep her from moving like this. : bestjob, please tell me more about what you do. Do you talk to them while you hold them, telling them you love them or explaining why you are doing it? It has seemed like a good way to handle the situation in the past to me, but seemed to physical, YK? But, perhaps it is better than getting angry and yelling or threatening. Removing her or us from the situation rarely works because she will just follow and keep it up.
We are working on it anyway. I guess there is no easy fix, it is just something they have to grow out of; learn that it is not appropriate.
Good car seat ideas too. She knows how to clip it herself but has already gotten bored with it. I often use "Do you want to stay home" as a choice rather than a threat, but sometimes I say it when I don't mean it and my impatient tone suggests threat rather than choice. I like the buckling in a doll or toy idea. That might be fun for her.
Anyway, thanks for all the encouragement and ideas. I know at least that we aren't alone.

[khrisday]

bestjob,
What I was saying is that is the child is in fact craving deep pressure, and gets it form you (in the way of a bear hug or restraint) for misbehaving, they will then associate the pleasurable feeling with misdeeds and do them on purpose to get that feeling.

[merpk]

... by untomySelf
http://www.parentleaders.org/article...ggression.html

HTH!

Went to the web-site parentleaders.org when I couldn't open the link, and wow, is it interesting.

Just went through some of the articles, and they're my favorite kind ... giving real actual suggestions about specific actions to take, as opposed to just theoretical statements.

edited to add the caveat that they're apparently not into the family bed ... it's the GD stuff in there that I'm complimenting ...



Maybe this post is off-topic, maybe not ... but thanks for that link!

[oceanbaby]

toys can use regular seatbelts because they don't have brains

[bestjob]

I might have a different view than some parents on this, but I try not to think about whether I'm rewarding bad behaviour or good behaviour. I try to think more about getting kids out of the activity that is bad behaviour. So, if a kid happened to be climbing on me and wasn't responding to "Please stop", I'd try different things, like a bear hug or a race on the lawn or a suggestion to sit down and read a book. I'd try to suggest something we'd both enjoy doing. If your child likes bear hugs, then they'd be good. If she really struggles against them, choose something else she'd like as long as you can live with it as well. I guess for folks who think of it in terms of rewarding good behaviour instead of bad, then the good behaviour is stopping what she was doing before, and that is what is rewarded.

You can also talk about ways to get to the bear hug (race, storry time). If she is really craving a bear hug, she can ask you for one instead of acting crazy to get you to give her it. For three year olds, though, I guess you kinda have to anticipate it and when she's acting silly but before the really crazy behaviour starts say, "Do you want a big hug?" (in a cheerful, non-threatening voice) so that she starts to associate the feelings that make her act silly with the need for a strong hold.

I think bear hugs are great. They are physical, but that is being a parent to me a lot of the time. We are physical beings, and touch is important to us. Sometimes the touch is gentle and soothing and sometimes it is strong. What it shouldn't be is harsh and frightening (like hitting, spanking, and withdrawing).

[EnviroBecca]

I have used the "hold you tight until you're ready to stop" technique a number of times when I was babysitting as a teenager. It was very effective. I used it only as a last resort when a kid was frenzied and not responding to the usual tactics, as Beth describes. I'd grab them, form a human cage, and say calmly but firmly (a good way to achieve that tone is to remember to speak SLOWLY), "It's time to calm down now." Then I'd wait, reacting as little as possible to their yelling and thrashing. Almost always, they'd settle down within 5 minutes. Often when they calmed down they would hug me back.

The one time it didn't work out was with a 7yo who was too big for me to hold her whole body, so I put my arms around her arms and chest, but she wrenched free and all I could grab were her wrists, and then she kicked me very hard in the ribs. I let go and gasped and sat down hard and then started to cry. This worked out in the end (tho in general I can't recommend crying as a discipline strategy ) because she was so shocked at having hurt me that she was completely distracted from her frenzy. After a few minutes of both kids playing Hospital over me, they went to bed without fuss.

One 3yo whom I held like this a number of times (he tended to get overexcited by having his favorite babysitter ) started to say "thank you" after he'd calmed down. Once he said, "I like how you help me stop. You don't spank me." I still don't think it's the best technique ever--it's easy for you to get hurt doing it, and it's more coercive than I really like--but it's effective for those times when nothing else works.

I think it's important to differentiate this kind of holding from a "hug". Suggesting a hug as distraction is a fine technique but a different one. This kind of holding is not supposed to be pleasant, tho it's also not supposed to be unpleasant; it's supposed to be neutral and impassive and sort of absorbing the kid's excess energy. I do understand what Khrisday means about kids w/sensory issues acting wild because they crave the enclosing pressure (even if it's a "restraint" rather than a "hug") and in that case this wouldn't be a great tactic--what would you do instead, Khrisday?

[mamaduck]

My 6 yo has always tended to carry rough-housing too far, and also tends to be very phsyical -- when he sees Grandma, for instance, he gets very excited and runs at her head first almost knocking her down. Its really hard for him to get himself together and stay in control, and it seems he is constantly in other people's space.

I feel like crap for only recently figuring out a strategy for this problem -- that has been going on since he was 2 years old! But just this summer, my dh started asking him (loudly) when this starts to happen, "Do you need a hug?" Or "Can I give you a hug?" Ds *always* says "YES!" and he falls into a hug instantly. Its always a very hard, tight, enveloping sort of hug too. Not suggly at all, IMO. More like a whole body hold. But then he calms down.

So I feel crummy that all this time he has only needed a hug. Duh. Why didn't I think of that?

Anyway, we've started directing him to "ask for a hug" when we notice him starting to get too wild, and things are substantially improving. He recently walked up and asked Grandma for a hug! Not only was she relieved *not* to get bowled over, but she was thrilled to death to be asked for a hug!

Things are far from perfect, but I am realizing that his wrestling around is definately an expression of his need for phsycial attention.

Editting to add: It often helps to direct him to a phsycial activity when his rough behavior gets crazy out of hand. Not nec. for excersize (though that never hurts) but for the phsycial sensation. For instance, he seems to really get what he needs from playing in the sandbox for 10 minutes -- comes out much calmer and more centered. Also -- swimming! He gets such a sense of balance and contentment from swimming -- I think from having his body enveloped in the water.

[sugarmoon]

What I was saying is that is the child is in fact craving deep pressure, and gets it form you (in the way of a bear hug or restraint) for misbehaving, they will then associate the pleasurable feeling with misdeeds and do them on purpose to get that feeling

Well, sort of. But, a kid w/ sensory issues really does *need* this type of sensory input, and they may be trying to fill that need w/ the "wild" type of behavior, esp. roughhousing. So if holding them tightly in a restraining hug fills their need for deep pressure and stops them from seeking it out in unacceptable ways, then I don't see the problem.

I mean, if you know that this is what is going on for your kid (sensory issues), then you would obviously want to provide lots of acceptable ways for them to get the types of sensory input they need *before* they become "wild", but why would you deny a kid the input they need?

[EnviroBecca]

Mamaduck, good point about suggesting an activity to provide physical sensation and calm the wildness. My parents used to tell my brother to "go run around the house 5 times." (They have a ranch house, so running around the whole outside is a good jaunt!) He usually came back much calmer.

The only time this strategy backfired was when he decided that the running would be more fun if he took off all his clothes and screamed like a banshee. We heard the screaming but did not realize about the nudity until we saw the expressions on the faces of the Mormon missionaries. They eventually looked at each other, shook their heads, and went on to the next house, evidently having decided that we were beyond hope! :LOL

[rhemp]

LOL @ EnviroBecca!!
What a way to deflect unwanted solicitors.

[merpk]

EnviroBecca

[bestjob]

gus'mama, I agree with you. If you had a hungry child who was being grumpy, you'd feed him and help him learn how to recognize hunger. If you had a cranky child who was tired, you'd help him get some rest and learn how to recognize weariness. Some kids need something physical from their parents, and they need to learn how to ask, but if their way of asking isn't appropriate, they oughtn't be punished.