or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › Jesus: God or prophet?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Jesus: God or prophet? - Page 2

post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&IsMama View Post
I don't believe in the Trinity. I have yet to find anyone who can explain the Trinity to me. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

St. Patrick explained the Trinity like a clover. 3 leaves coming from one body. You wouldn't say you have three separate clovers, but you also wouldn't look at the leaves and say they're all one and the same. The Holy Trinity is similar. Catholics call it a "mystery" because it's very abstract and it is difficult for the human mind to grasp. We won't fully understand it in this life, but the clover analogy makes sense to me. So, being that I can accept the Trinity, I see no contradictions when Jesus refers to Himself as God at times and as the Son at times, because He was indeed both.
post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
St. Patrick explained the Trinity like a clover. 3 leaves coming from one body. You wouldn't say you have three separate clovers, but you also wouldn't look at the leaves and say they're all one and the same. The Holy Trinity is similar. Catholics call it a "mystery" because it's very abstract and it is difficult for the human mind to grasp. We won't fully understand it in this life, but the clover analogy makes sense to me. So, being that I can accept the Trinity, I see no contradictions when Jesus refers to Himself as God at times and as the Son at times, because He was indeed both.
Oh! I like this analogy much better than the one I gave!! This makes much more sense.
post #23 of 38
I wonder what 4 leaf clovers mean.

j/k
post #24 of 38
I'll search for something I used to have... for me, I believed he was just a Prophet (although I don't think that's necessarily a "just a " ).. even when I was a Christian. OK with calling him the son of God in the same way we all are... but not God.

Let's see...I can't find it, but will go from memory.

God is omnisicient. Jesus is not.

"Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father.""

"Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"" Jesus if Omniscient, would know.

Found more here... not what I was looking for, but still...http://www.geocities.com/athens/Olym...57/jesusis.htm

Jesus never advocated himself as equal to God... or anything other than pure Monotheism. ""The Lord our God is Lord alone! Therefore, you shall adore the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." [Deuteronomy 6:4-5] [Mark 12:29-30] "

Jesus prayed. To God. Not to himself. When he taught his disciples to pray, he taught them to pray to God. No mention of Jesus...or in Jesus's name is made. ""When you pray, say: `Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread, and forgive us the wrong we have done as we forgive those who wrong us. Subject us not to the trial but deliver us from the evil one.' " [Luke 11:1-4] [Matthew 6:9-13] "

Jesus also said, ""If you truly loved me you would rejoice to have me go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I". [John 14:28] " Again... sounds like Jesus is a Prophet, not God.

Hope that helps. You may want to pick up the book "When Jesus Became God."
post #25 of 38
BTW, for those who find Jesus as a Prophet offensive... It's mentioned in Luke 24:19

http://bible.cc/luke/24-19.htm

Quote:
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And He said to them, "What things?" And they said to Him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"What happened?" he asked. They said to him, "We were discussing what happened to Jesus from Nazareth. He was a powerful prophet in what he did and said in the sight of God and all the people.

King James Bible
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

American Standard Version
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

Bible in Basic English
And he said to them, What things? And they said, The things to do with Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, great in his acts and his words, before God and all the people:

Douay-Rheims Bible
To whom he said: What things? And they said: Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people;

Darby Bible Translation
And he said to them, What things? And they said to him, The things concerning Jesus the Nazaraean, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people;

English Revised Version
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

Tyndale New Testament
To whom he said: what things? And they said unto him: of Iesus of Nazareth which was a prophet, mighty in deed, and word, before God, and all the people.

Weymouth New Testament
"What things?" He asked. "The things about Jesus the Nazarene," they said, "who was a Prophet powerful in work and word before God and all the people;

Webster's Bible Translation
And he said to them, What things? And they said to him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God, and all the people:

World English Bible
He said to them, "What things?" They said to him, "The things concerning Jesus, the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people;

Young's Literal Translation
And he said to them, 'What things?' And they said to him, 'The things about Jesus of Nazareth, who became a man -- a prophet -- powerful in deed and word, before God and all the people,
Jesus refers to himself as a Prophet in Matthew 13:57.
"And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."

He is seen as a Prophet by the people of the time in Matthew 21:11
"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."

Also in Matthew 21:46
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

And there are more.
post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird View Post
I wonder what 4 leaf clovers mean.

j/k


usami -
You have some very good points. I have always thought about Jesus as God, but those passages show a different viewpoint. This is why I am always researching and studying and am not content to just follow one religion. I think it is wrong to follow a religion blindly and never question things. I would rather trust my own intuition and be wrong, then to follow someone else's blindly and be wrong because of them (if that makes sense). I think that is what free will is all about. To quote Homer Simpson, "But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder." It's funny, but it has a lot of truth to it. I don't claim to have God so figured out that I know exactly what He wants or expects us to do, but I do think that we are supposed to continuously be searching and studying and not be happy with just sitting still with our spirituality.
post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by amydep View Post

To quote Homer Simpson, "But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder."


I love religion on the Simpsons. It's so well done. Like when Homer was baptized by Ned (well took a baptizin' for Bart) and said he felt like St. Augustine of Hippo.... or when he started his own religion and had the Feast of Maximum Occupancy. LOL Mmmmmm.... sacriligious.

I agree with you on you need to make your own decisions and follow your own heart. I don't think spirituality or faith is constant.... or meant to be. For me, I usually ask God to help me find my way on my path... but I have no idea where my path leads.
post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post


I love religion on the Simpsons. It's so well done. Like when Homer was baptized by Ned (well took a baptizin' for Bart) and said he felt like St. Augustine of Hippo.... or when he started his own religion and had the Feast of Maximum Occupancy. LOL Mmmmmm.... sacriligious.

I agree with you on you need to make your own decisions and follow your own heart. I don't think spirituality or faith is constant.... or meant to be. For me, I usually ask God to help me find my way on my path... but I have no idea where my path leads.
Me too!! They really have some great writers for that show, and even though it is all done in humor, some of it makes great sense.

I think that by following your heart you are listening to God speak to you. That is why I am having such a hard time with organized religion right now. Because if you follow what someone else is telling you to do all the time, you aren't listening to your heart (in most cases). I guess if your heart is telling you to follow a religion blindly, then you are! I prefer to think on my own.

Homer: I'm having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!
post #29 of 38
What about this though:

John 14:6-10
Jesus said to him (Thomas at the Last Supper), "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him. Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

So then, when he told us to pray "Our Father", then he is telling us to pray to him as well, no?? "If you know me, then you will also know my Father"...I take this as meaning that he and the Father are one in the same.
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird View Post
I wonder what 4 leaf clovers mean.

j/k
post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post
Jesus also said, ""If you truly loved me you would rejoice to have me go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I". [John 14:28] " Again... sounds like Jesus is a Prophet, not God.
Jesus also says "I and the Father are one" and "The Father is in Me and I am in the Father" and "If you knew me, you would know my Father also" "you call me teacher and Lord and you are right for I AM" (I AM=YAHWEH=God), etc.
post #32 of 38
According to the earliest gospel (Thomas), which is not in the bible and most christians refuse to recognize as fact primarily because it contradicts their beliefs, Jesus NEVER claimed to be god and was an apocolyptic scholar, one of hundreds at the time. I believe he was a sage and nothing more.
post #33 of 38
Both.

Jesus was 'prophet, priest and king'; one can hardly deny that He was a prophet, given that He prophesied, which is pretty much the definition of being a prophet! But yes, I believe He is one of the members of the Trinity; ie, God. Jesus referring to Himself as a prophet in no way implies that He couldn't be more than a prophet; any more than Jesus referring to Himself as a shepherd meant that He was only a shepherd. Certainly, some of His contemporaries referred to Him as a prophet, not as God; which is to be expected, given that even the disciples didn't have a very clear idea about who Jesus was, until the Resurrection. But one can't say 'His contemporaries called Him X, therefore He was X'--after all, His contemporaries called him all sorts of things--Moses, Elijah, a man with a demon, a good teacher, you name it.

L&IsMama: I'd be curious to know what exactly you find illogical about the Trinity? I had a discussion once with someone who said that the Trinity violated the law of non-contradiction (not true), but apart from that I've never heard anyone say it was illogical per se; just difficult to understand. I have heard complex analogies involving 3-in-1 shampoo, though.

Quote:
God is omnisicient. Jesus is not.
"Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father.""
"Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"" Jesus if Omniscient, would know.
God, the three persons of the Trinity, can be omniscient without each of the Persons of the Godhead having to exercise that attribute, surely? As for the latter instance, we don't actually know Jesus didn't know who touched Him--He may have been asking simply to get her to 'fess up. But anyway, during His incarnation Jesus limited many of His divine attributes--He wasn't omnipresent, for example, given that He was 'trapped' within the confines of a human body. So I don't think it's a theological problem if He chose to give up some of His Divine knowledge in order to more fully experience humanity.
post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post


I don't think spirituality or faith is constant.... or meant to be. For me, I usually ask God to help me find my way on my path... but I have no idea where my path leads.
post #35 of 38
I personally believe He is God, but I don't have the great resources others have been sending.
post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
Jesus also says "I and the Father are one" and "The Father is in Me and I am in the Father" and "If you knew me, you would know my Father also" "you call me teacher and Lord and you are right for I AM" (I AM=YAHWEH=God), etc.
Even apart from direct statements like these, a great deal of what Jesus taught were things he had no authority to say unless he was God. Examples:
"Your sins are forgiven." These were not offenses against Jesus himself which were forgiven personally, but all the man's sins. The Pharisees objected strongly to this statement, since it was understood that only God can forgive sins.
"Today you will be with me in Paradise."
To the apostles, "You will eat and drink at my table in my kingdom. You will also sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel."
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne."
Matthew 12:41-42: Jesus claims to be greater than Jonah or Solomon.
"Abraham desired to see my day, and he did see it, and rejoiced."
Driving people from the Temple, he said, "My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer. But ye have made it a den of thieves."
"I saw Satan falling like lightning from Heaven."
Mark 2:28: When criticized for breaking the Sabbath, Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath.
post #37 of 38
Jesus was the human manifestation of God.
post #38 of 38
i think he is gods son. why would he call himself his father?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Religious Studies
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › Jesus: God or prophet?