If spanking was illegal...

[Aster]

what kinds of changes would have to happen?

Would books have to be rewritten to exclude spanking as a form of discipline?

Would there need to be a mass re-education of all parents, teachers, and other people who interact with children regularly?

Who would police the parents? Would it even make a difference?

I was thinking about this. I'm hoping that Canada will soon be on the list of countries where spanking children is an illegal activity. The supreme court of canada heard an appeal against the current law that says it's okay to spank back in June and still hasnt announced their ruling. more here It doesnt really sound like they'll change the current law, but i'm hoping, for the sake of all canadian children now and in the future, that they do.

[Seeking Refuge]

My sisters would all be in jail and I would be able to hand out the most satisfying "I told you so" of a lifetime if spanking was illegal.

[mamaduck]

I think the biggest change would be in the esteem that children would feel towards themselves. If all children were to be made aware of their rights to dignity and safety, I think there would be a new sort of confidence and self-appreciation among children.

However, I don't think jailing parents who spank would be in the children's best interests. There would have to be other sorts of consequences -- "gentle discipline" for parents, I think. Mandatory education for parents on their first offense, increased levels of social support, -- things along that line. I think that many parents spank because they don't know what else to do -- they shouldn't be punished for that, they should be educated and supported.

[Seeking Refuge]

oh I was just joking but it is very frustrating for me. I very rarely have anything to do with my family because of the harsh discipline methods they use with their children. I think that I have given them a fairly good example of how to discipline without punishment.
Sometimes I think that parents who resort to spanking on a regular basis instead of trying other methods first arebeing stubborn. I mean the information is out there if you look for it.

[Piglet68]

I am totally against spanking, but I think a law against it is a waste of time, money, and resources, IMHO.

I mean, how do you police such a thing? And will it really do anything other than keep spanking in the privacy of the home? I think the money and resources required for such a thing would be much better put to use by instigating mandatory parenting classes for all high school aged children, involving the latest in child psychology, attachment theories, breastfeeding information, and discipline.

[mamaduck]

Piglet -- I suspect that the crack down on domestic violence towards women has done a lot to further the women's movement, and to increase the value and respect due to women in general.

I imagine that the same would occur for children. If nothing else, the "entitlement" that parents feel when it comes to hitting would be shaken a bit. Parents would have to know that they no longer own that "entitlement." This would put into question the entire way that children are so often devalued.

Children could be taught in school that they have a right not to be hit, and on television. Can you imagine how this will affect kids?

Who was it -- someone who posts here -- who was articulating the difference in the attitude towards children since the no-spanking law was passed in Sweden? That was *so* interesting to hear about. It really got me thinking.

But I agree that the money would need to be put primarily into parenting classes.

[Peppermint]

There is a large portion of the population that relies on laws to determine their values, and what they will and will not do. If stealing were legal, a lot more people would do it, for example.

So, yes, I think a law would be hard to enforce (much like domestic violence laws) but still very worthwhile.

[*LoveBugMama*]

Spanking is illegal where I live. Thank God!

In Norway its against the law to physically disipline ypur child in any way. And that is a great thing, in my mind.

Is it a law that is hard to enforce? I bet it is.
But, to me it is a great law. Cause it makes it soo much easier if I ever were to see a child being spanked.

If I saw a child get a spanking, or being hit in any way, I would call the police in a heartbeat! And I think they would take my call seriously. Cause it is not considered ok to hit a child in Norway.

Ofcourse, someone does it, I am sure. But for the most part, spanking is seen as abuse. And I belive that has to do with the fact that it is illegal. It kind of makes it clear to people that it IS a bad thing to spank.

[Seeking Refuge]

I wish my FIL lived in Norway.

[Aster]

I think one of the biggest problems with the laws allowing spanking is that they are very vague--here i think it reads as 'reasonable force' or something like that. It's very open to interpretation. Apparently some people have done some pretty horrific things to children and in court it's been termed as reasonable force. I'm using spoiler tags bc it's horrible

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

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there was a case of parents using hammers to hit their kids where the 'reasonable force' law let the parents go free

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. If all abuse towards children was illegal, then there would be NO question about what kind of force is okay. Maybe one day people will get it that's it's never okay to hit anyone.

[Kylix]

I too hope that one day spanking will be illegal in the US however I don't see that day ever coming in my lifetime.

BUT, if it were illegal I wouldn't want offending parents to go to jail or necessarily have their children taken away (I'm talking about spanking and not physical abuse say with harsh objects).

I WOULD want the offending parents to forced to take rigorous parenting classes and maybe have some type of spaced out visits to the home to see if the tactics are being put into place. Also, a hefty fine would be a good incentive for parents not to offend.

I wouldn't want making spanking illegal to result in parents who don't know any better to lack other parenting tactics. I know many ppl who spank because it's all they know. If spanking were to be taken away from them today, their children would be horrors. Mainly because their children have already been conditioned to respond ONLY to spanking but also because that's the only type of discipline they use.

The introduction of parenting classes (free???) to ppl who want to learn better ways is crucial.

I don't see parents who spank as demons nor do I think they don't love their children. But I don't think it is the best way or even a good way and I wish it would be abolished for children and their basic human rights' sake.

Kylix

[Kylix]

Originally posted by mamaduck
I suspect that the crack down on domestic violence towards women has done a lot to further the women's movement, and to increase the value and respect due to women in general.

I imagine that the same would occur for children. If nothing else, the "entitlement" that parents feel when it comes to hitting would be shaken a bit. Parents would have to know that they no longer own that "entitlement." This would put into question the entire way that children are so often devalued.

Children could be taught in school that they have a right not to be hit, and on television. Can you imagine how this will affect kids?

Who was it -- someone who posts here -- who was articulating the difference in the attitude towards children since the no-spanking law was passed in Sweden? That was *so* interesting to hear about. It really got me thinking.

WELL SAID!! I agree completely!!!

Kylix

[Kylix]

Oops! double post...

[Piglet68]

Okay, I'm gonna change my mind a bit and agree. You are right, mamaduck (and the others) that some people do get their values from the law, and that it would probably change society's attitude in general. When you guys put it that way, it sounds like something I would support after all.

I guess my concern is what Kylix brought up: I'd hate hate hate to see kids taken away from their otherwise loving homes b/c their parents don't know any better way. I was spanked as a child, and while I don't wish to spank my own children I would *hardly* call what my parents did abusive. They were otherwise wonderful parents and the thought of being taken away from them for that scares me. One of my dearest friends spanks (taps) her kids with a wooden spoon. It sounds horrid put like that, but it's not as bad as it sounds. She's oh so thoughtful about it and while I *totally* disagree with spanking, she's a fabulous person and a fabulous mother who has ZERO support around her and doing the best she can. I am so blessed with support while she has NONE and I feel who am I to tell her she's a bad mother, kwim?

I guess if the punishment was not too severe (and I'm at a loss here - maybe fines? I dunno...) then it might be a good idea. And also, as someone said it's really hard to define it: there's a huge difference between a calm pat on the bum and a parent lashing out in anger - how does the law distinguish between that?

[Greaseball]

As far as the difference between "just a pat" and "real spanking" - if my dh decided to give me "just a pat/tap/swat to call my attention to the situation" he would find himself in jail and divorced. Assault is assault! As a child I did not receive bruises or other physical marks but I would still call it abuse; interestingly, the law agrees with me there. (In my state it's illegal to hit a child anywhere but the hand or butt.)

I would support such a law - I think it really says something about how we perceive children that we don't have that law here - but I agree, it wouldn't fix everything. Sexual abuse is illegal, yet it happens all the time.

But at least such a law would make it so I could go grocery shopping and not hear someone "tapping" their kid.

[lunar forest]

Originally posted by Greaseball
As far as the difference between "just a pat" and "real spanking" - if my dh decided to give me "just a pat/tap/swat to call my attention to the situation" he would find himself in jail and divorced. Assault is assault! As a child I did not receive bruises or other physical marks but I would still call it abuse; interestingly, the law agrees with me there. (In my state it's illegal to hit a child anywhere but the hand or butt.)

I would support such a law - I think it really says something about how we perceive children that we don't have that law here - but I agree, it wouldn't fix everything. Sexual abuse is illegal, yet it happens all the time.

But at least such a law would make it so I could go grocery shopping and not hear someone "tapping" their kid.

Yes! It used to be perfectly reasonable for a man to hit his wife to "discipline" her. Now that it is illegal people view women very differently. (yes, of course there are many other factors to that - as there are with children's rights.) I would love to see a day when children have equal rights to be respected, and not publicly and otherwise humiliated, and abused. I think that the abuse of spanking to discpiline is far greater than just a physical one - it is permanently damaging emotionally, IMO.

This is something I feel very strongly about, and have put a lot of thought into. I've always had a big problem with abuse, and have seen spanking as somewhat abusive for quite sometime. When I first started considering how I felt about making it illegal I was against it because many of the people I know would still spank, just more secretively. I worried that it would cause more harsh abuse because people would get used to hiding what they do. Than I started thinking about women's rights, and that put it all in perspective for me.