Vaginal delivery does not equal Natural Childbirth - Page 6

[Astrogirl]

Originally Posted by Lizzie9984

Uhhhh....they don't do c-sections without meds.

It happens.

Even if not by accident/negligence, there has been at least one person who has had a c-section by hypnosis.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Astrogirl

It happens.

Even if not by accident/negligence, there has been at least one person who has had a c-section by hypnosis.

I've heard of that before, but I wasn't sure if it was true. But is being so hypnotised that you don't feel them cutting open your stomach a natural state? Also is using hypnosis so that you don't feel the pain of childbirth natural?

Is it still considered a natural childbirth if a mom gets an epi and either doesn't work in time or doesn't work at all?

[georgia]

Sorry for another link, but this is one of my very favorite Mothering articles about birth. I think it's relevant to the discussion about drugs interfering with the physiologic process

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by bri276

fwiw, whenever anyone in this VERY heavy epidural area says "She went natural" they mean no pain relief. Except for when they say "Did you have a c-section or natural?" in which case I say vaginal.

Are you sure about that because I've had this conversation before with a new mom I was bringing dinner to once:

Me: How was the birth for you?
Her: Oh it was awesome I had her naturally
Me: Oh that's great, good for you, I caved and got an epidural after 30 hours with my first.
Her: Oh God no, I *had* the epidural. Dang I got that thing hooked up the minute I step in the hospital. I meant I had her naturally, you know like not a c-section.
Me: (eyes glazing over, and big smile growing across my face)Oh that's great, I'm so happy it was a good experience for you.

If I hadn't of made the comparison to my birth, I would have thought she had a natural childbirth. No I'll give you in the grand scheme of life it's really not important that I know what sort of birth this woman had. However here at MDC, I do want to know when talking about Natural Childbirth at the Natural Family Living site that we are talking about the same thing. It's helpful when a new mother asks about nursing issues to know what sort of birth she had.

[bri276]

yeah, I'm sure. I'm talking about in depth discussions, bunch of women sitting around explaining their entire experience. I've never had anyone say "I went natural" without qualifying their statement with "no pain meds" etc. Although, as c-sections become more and more common, I'm sure the term natural will be applied to vaginal births simply because people don't want to say "vaginal" :

for instance, at a Halloween party that I attended without my DH or DD, a guy who'd had too much to drink overheard me talking about my 2 yr old. He looked at my body and said "YOU have a 2 yr old?? C-section or natural?" and I just couldn't bring myself to say the word "vaginal" to this drunken dude who had just hit on me in the strangest way, ever!

I don't think it's really realistic that we're going to get all 50,000+ members on board with the same terminology, though!

[felix23]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

Are you sure about that because I've had this conversation before with a new mom I was bringing dinner to once:

Me: How was the birth for you?
Her: Oh it was awesome I had her naturally
Me: Oh that's great, good for you, I caved and got an epidural after 30 hours with my first.
Her: Oh God no, I *had* the epidural. Dang I got that thing hooked up the minute I step in the hospital. I meant I had her naturally, you know like not a c-section.
Me: (eyes glazing over, and big smile growing across my face)Oh that's great, I'm so happy it was a good experience for you.

If I hadn't of made the comparison to my birth, I would have thought she had a natural childbirth. No I'll give you in the grand scheme of life it's really not important that I know what sort of birth this woman had. However here at MDC, I do want to know when talking about Natural Childbirth at the Natural Family Living site that we are talking about the same thing. It's helpful when a new mother asks about nursing issues to know what sort of birth she had.

Can you define Natural Living? I can't. I can decide what living naturally means to me, but I am not going to tell someone that just because they do one thing they are not living a natural life. I think that there would be a lot of angry people on MDC if I decided that all people who use disposable diapers or don't eat all organic foods are just living, not living naturally. When someone says that they are living naturally, do you immediatly know what they mean? To some it might mean that they are comfortable using disposable diapers and not eating organic foods, but to someone else it might mean that they would never do those things. To me the definition of natural birth is the same. I'm not going to tell someone who pushed a baby out of their vagina with the help of an epi to deal with the pain that they just had a birth, not a natural birth. That is why it is helpful for people to use more specific words when talking about their birth experience, it gets rid of any confusion regarding what type of birth took place.

[Arwyn]

Cesareans have also taken place with acupuncture as the only form of anesthesia. No "medications". Still not what I'd term a "natural birth", although it's got to be better for baby than to have the artificial painkillers in their system. But as much as I love acupuncture (and I do!), I'm not sure I'd be comfortable relying on it to block the sensation of being cut open.

I also find it interesting that so many people think "natural" excludes the use of pitocin for induction or augmentation. I guess I've always thought of "natural" as meaning (when it comes to birth), more or less, "without pain medication". If a woman can stand a pitocin induced or augmented labor without pain medication, I will bow to her, and she (in my mind) has entirely the right and more to choose to call her birth "natural". Sure, if we get down to a really literal definition of "natural", maybe it wasn't, but I find fundamentalist definitions to not be much use to me. I for one will not be happy should anyone say my at-home, unhindered waterbirth wasn't "natural" because I used a plastic tub.

Also, to say that because we can't agree on "natural" at the edges of the definition (like my plastic tub), and even if others have coopted the term to mean something different ("vaginal"), doesn't mean the term has no use. It's like the old pornography gag - I know it when I see it, even if we can't all agree whether all those naked Greek statues are obscene or art.

[holly6737]

To me, natural means without medication and without intervention. I've attended births before where the woman did not have an epidural, but still was induced with pitocin, had arom at 4 cm, IFM/IPC, IV, tons of vaginal exams, baby and mom separated after birth and was confined to bed for labor. To me, that's still not natural childbirth. Absence of epi doesn't equal NCB. To me, it's more than that.

When I think of NCB, I think "Could this birth have taken place exactly like this 1000 years ago?" That's more of what I think NCB is. For instance, for my HBAC I had no interventions except AROM (per my begging) after being stalled at 10 for over 2 hours. 1000 years ago I could have broken the bag with my fingernail, so I still think it was a NCB. Absence of an epi was part of it, but it wasn't the whole package.

When I think of "normal childbirth" I think of vaginal birth. So that's how I distinguish the two. Unmedicated w/o intervention- NCB. Vaginal birth- normal birth.


ETA: But I also don't look down on women who don't have NCB. I personally wouldn't choose not to have NCB (if I could help it), but I'm not judgmental of other's choices, so long as they were informed choices. I don't think having a NCB gives me extra "crunchy points". It's just what I wanted, and that's how I define the term.

[wombatclay]

Interesting discussion! In my real world community, "natural childbirth" means a vaginal delivery. An "unmedicated birth" means a no-med/limited intervention type delivery.

I think "natural" and "normal" are terms that are very hard to pin down...so much of the meaning is socio-culturally constructed. Not to mention that both terms have "opposites" that are generally seen as perjorative. After all, defining a certain type of birth as natural or normal means that a birth outside of that definition becomes un-natural or abnormal. The speaker probably doesn't intend to make a negative judgement statement about the other person's birth experience, but that's what happens.

[JaneSmith1010]

Vaginal childbirth with anesthetic does not equal natural childbirth...but then again does unmedicated childbirth with an episiotomy? I think that the term 'natural childbirth' is reserved for unmedicated birth without intervention of the sort that would not have happened anyway...that is, an episiotomy that is not of the routine sort but realy neccessary is mimicing a tear that would have occured anyway.
having personally went to alot of effort to have a true natural childbirth without risky interventions like an epidural, i would be a little ticked to hear someone try to pass off a medicated vaginal delivery for a natural one. there are too many risks for mother and baby with those sorts of interventions.......our liberal misuse of these things is part of the reason the US ranks among the bottom of the developed countries in our birthing stats.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by jhow32000

Vaginal childbirth with anesthetic does not equal natural childbirth...but then again does unmedicated childbirth with an episiotomy? I think that the term 'natural childbirth' is reserved for unmedicated birth without intervention of the sort that would not have happened anyway...that is, an episiotomy that is not of the routine sort but realy neccessary is mimicing a tear that would have occured anyway.
having personally went to alot of effort to have a true natural childbirth without risky interventions like an epidural, i would be a little ticked to hear someone try to pass off a medicated vaginal delivery for a natural one. there are too many risks for mother and baby with those sorts of interventions.......our liberal misuse of these things is part of the reason the US ranks among the bottom of the developed countries in our birthing stats.

thank you!

[Thalia]

Originally Posted by holly6737

When I think of NCB, I think "Could this birth have taken place exactly like this 1000 years ago?" That's more of what I think NCB is.

You mean, without electricity, running water, indoor heat? How natural, exactly, is a plastic birth pool, for that matter?

I think it is tricky to draw the line between where technology can be helpful and facilitate the natural labor process (e.g. listening to beautiful music on your stereo) vs. interrupt it (insert your least favorite intervention here).

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Thalia

You mean, without electricity, running water, indoor heat? How natural, exactly, is a plastic birth pool, for that matter?

I think it is tricky to draw the line between where technology can be helpful and facilitate the natural labor process (e.g. listening to beautiful music on your stereo) vs. interrupt it (insert your least favorite intervention here).

That is exactly what I have been asking. And birthing in a plastic pool would be just icky for me and would be a modern intevention instead of a modern labor facilitator. Nothing natural about it to me.

[CherryBomb]

I don't get the whole "it's only natural if cavewomen/bushwomen did it" argument. I mean, tribal african women don't crap in toliets, either, does that make our bowel movements unnatural? (Not to mention the racism and privilege inherent in the "bushwomen do it" arguements, but that's another thread.)

While I think we should be honest in evaluating birth choices, getting too legalistic does nothing to advance the natural birth cause or educate and empower women. If you tell a woman natural birth is best for her and her baby, and then go on to say she has to give birth alone and naked in a cave for it to be natural...you're gonna lose a lot of people, fast.

I think it also encourages us to turn birth into a some type of pissing contest, which I don't like at all.

[Nicole R.]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

I think "natural" and "normal" are terms that are very hard to pin down...so much of the meaning is socio-culturally constructed. Not to mention that both terms have "opposites" that are generally seen as perjorative. After all, defining a certain type of birth as natural or normal means that a birth outside of that definition becomes un-natural or abnormal. The speaker probably doesn't intend to make a negative judgement statement about the other person's birth experience, but that's what happens.

I like this point. Maybe what we also need are non-pejorative terms for births that were not "natural." Look at us striving to precisely define the meaning of natural birth, but what words do we have to describe the many variations on medically and/or chemically assisted births? Certainly those are births that most of us would prefer to avoid, but it would still be nice to have words that don't inherently contain negative judgment.

[Nicole R.]

Originally Posted by Thalia

I think it is tricky to draw the line between where technology can be helpful and facilitate the natural labor process (e.g. listening to beautiful music on your stereo) vs. interrupt it (insert your least favorite intervention here).

I do think this is the key to my personal definition of "natural" childbirth. To me, labor-inducing and pain-reducing chemicals are not natural, as they interrupt the natural course of labor. Go ahead and have all the labor facilitators you want, though -- go ahead and go for a walk to start labor, and bring on the birth ball, shower, massage, and most importantly the positive messages (like MDC ), etc., and I'll still consider the birth to be natural.

But does continuous fetal monitoring actually interrupt labor? Its results can lead a caregiver to utilize interventions which interrupt the natural course of labor, but is it an intervention in and of itself? I would say not, although it's surely better to avoid it if you can. And what about episiotomy? Does it interrupt? What about hydrating IVs?

So I personally use the term "natural childbirth" for one with no chemicals of any sort, although that still allows for many other types of intervention. I do think "natural childbirth" needs to remain a fairly broad definition. Maybe more specific terms like "intervention-free childbirth" or "non-medically-managed childbirth" (that's clunky!) could provide further refinement to the natural realm if needed.

[attachedmamaof3]

It seems weird to me that people on MDC are actually arguing about this! Maybe because it seems so simple in my mind.

Natural birth= drug and intervention free vaginal birth. Period.

American Heritage Dictionary - natural childbirth
n. A method of childbirth in which medical intervention is minimized and the mother often practices relaxation and breathing techniques to control pain and ease delivery.

WordNet - natural childbirth
noun
labor and childbirth without medical intervention; no drugs are given to relieve pain or aid the birth process

[swimswamswum]

Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3

It seems weird to me that people on MDC are actually arguing about this! Maybe because it seems so simple in my mind.

Natural birth= drug and intervention free vaginal birth. Period.

American Heritage Dictionary - natural childbirth
n. A method of childbirth in which medical intervention is minimized and the mother often practices relaxation and breathing techniques to control pain and ease delivery.

WordNet - natural childbirth
noun
labor and childbirth without medical intervention; no drugs are given to relieve pain or aid the birth process

Agreed! Well put!

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by green_momma2007

who are we to take the "natural" badge away from her.

i consider my labor natural, since i got through everything but the actual extricating of the child with no drugs or interventions (save a couple of checks--i had no IV, etc.). but she wouldn't come out, so they cut her out. and yes, i had pain meds for that part

i always say i "labored drug-free and pushed drug-free for over 3 hours, then had to get an epi and have a c-section."

it is important to me that i labored for all that time drug-free, even if the birth itself wasn't "natural."

ETA: so i meant to say, all this means, i want my "badge."

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3

It seems weird to me that people on MDC are actually arguing about this! Maybe because it seems so simple in my mind.

It did to me too. But starting this thread has been a real eye opener about what MDC has become.