classroom rule/lunch choice removed

[catchat]

hello there-
I'm interested in hearing some reactions to this-
This is a class with 6-7 year olds. I guess there are several(maybe 6) tasks to be completed in the morning such as putting coat away, lunch away, homework in mailbox, sign up if having school lunch etc... It is the same set of tasks everyday to help the kids remember.
Apparently, if a child is having school lunch and forgets to sign up the teacher tells them that they must order this certain sandwich (same every time) and won't let them pick. This is before the lunch order lists goes down to the cafeteria. So if it's a kid that doesn't eat this food, then they basically end up eating a small side dish for lunch.
Thanks for reading! let me know what you think
:

[Oriole]

I'd start with contacting the teacher and asking "why'. If it is something out of her hands - then I would send homemade lunch. If it is of HER doing - we'd have some words :

[catchat]

thanks for responding Oriole.
Just to clarify- the lunch orders are not yet sent to the cafeteria yet at this point. This is the policy of the teacher.

[Petronella]

Okay, that's just awful. Not only is it cruel, but it also doesn't have much to do with the original thing the kid did wrong. At that age, they won't learn anything from that. They'll just think, "Teacher won't let me have a good lunch. I'm hungry.:" The kids should still get to choose!

Does the principal know? I would bring it up with him/her.

[mamalisa]

So basically if you don't get your morning "chores" done in time, you don't get to pick your lunch? I guess that sounds like the easiest punishment for the teacher, ie, you didn't pick yet so I'll pick for you? That seems really silly, would the teacher like someone else to pick her lunch out?

I just asked ds what his teacher would say and he said, "Oh she would say "please hurry up and make your lunch choice, we have things to do!"

[Viewfinder]

I would be livid

If the teacher dared to influence what my child eats for lunch, or whether or not she eats... it's NOT her business to make such a choice. It is her business, with kids that age, to make sure they WILL get their lunch. That's like washing their mouth out with soap.

Makes me bristle...

VF

[UUMom]

If this is a public school, what she is doing is not even legal. Food cannot be used in any way for discipline purposes. Period.

[catchat]

thanks for the feedback. I do now know that it is against guidelines of the Natl Assoc. of State Boards of Ed

School personnel shall not offer food as a performance incentive or reward and shall not withhold food from students as punishment.

But I'm not sure that it is illegal. If anyone knows that this is illegal I'd love to know some more info to refer to. just in case. thanks!

[Oriole]

I am 100% certain that it can't be considered legal as a teacher's choice for punishment... I'd be dialing that number...

[Mom4tot]

Ugh.

Poor kids.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by Oriole

I am 100% certain that it can't be considered legal as a teacher's choice for punishment... I'd be dialing that number...

Like yesterday.

[TiredX2]

While I don't agree with the policy--- for one HUGE thing it completely overlook dietary restrictions, but I wanted to respond to this:

Originally Posted by Petronella

Okay, that's just awful. Not only is it cruel, but it also doesn't have much to do with the original thing the kid did wrong.

If I understand correctly, what the kid has done "wrong" is not sign up for what school lunch they want. (signing up for the lunch is one of their morning tasks). So, it actually is a logical consequence (if you don't remember to sign up for a specific lunch you get the "default" lunch).

[TiredX2]

Maybe I am picturing the situation differently than others.

I'm seeing the kids coming in. They are supposed to do a number of tasks.

Put away jacket.
Get out notebook.
Lunch away.
Water out.
Turn Homework in.
Make lunch choice.

At the end of this "get ready" time, the teacher sends the school lunch request in. Any child who has not "chosen" she marks as wanting the specific sandwich.

I see that as a pretty logical consequence. Do you really want the teacher spending 15 minutes going around and asking each child, "So, what do you want for lunch today? Here are your options...." and waiting for them to decide.

I would also think that most kids would quickly adapt to this scenario. You go in, you pick what lunch you want.

Lets say the child *forgot* their lunch and their was only one lunch option that day. Is the teacher "forcing" the child to eat that specific lunch. Well, not really--- the child "chose" that lunch by forgetting their favored lunch.

[Thursday Girl]

I have to agree with TIREDX2 here, it really is logical. by not signing up for your choice you are picking the default. If she has to go back and ask every kid that forgot she would waste time that could be used in class and it is showing them that if they don't do what they are supposed to do someone will just come along and take care of it for them. This is 6 and 7 year olds, I mean I would expect my 4 1/2 year old to do the same thing. Barring diet restrictions, then obviovuly the default for that child should be something that the child is allowed to eat.

[CathMac]

Originally Posted by jewelysmommy

I have to agree with TIREDX2 here, it really is logical. by not signing up for your choice you are picking the default. If she has to go back and ask every kid that forgot she would waste time that could be used in class and it is showing them that if they don't do what they are supposed to do someone will just come along and take care of it for them. This is 6 and 7 year olds, I mean I would expect my 4 1/2 year old to do the same thing. Barring diet restrictions, then obviovuly the default for that child should be something that the child is allowed to eat.

Jewelysmommy,
I'm not sure I agree with you and TIREDX2. A child sent in with lunch that forgets to put it away does not suffer the same consequences as a child that isn't sent in with a lunch and forgets to make a lunch choice. Unless the brown bagged lunch requires refrigeration (and the lack of refrigeration makes it inedible) then the consequences are more harsh for the child that forgets to make a lunch choice.

Of course I'm assuming a child that forgets to put his lunch away is still allowed to eat it. In fact I think it's likely the teacher makes sure lunches that are brought in are put away if only to make sure that every child does have something to eat.

Keep in mind that a child that buys lunch may not be well fed at home and a school lunch may be his or her most nutritious meal for the day, assuming it's something they will eat.

Furthermore, we don't know what --if any-- "logical consequences" there are for the other morning tasks. If a child doesn't put his jacket away does the teacher keep him inside at recess or tell him he can't wear his coat?

Arguably all of these tasks are equally important --in terms of the impact to the teacher and the amount it cuts into class time-- and they should have equal consequences. It seems unfair that a child who happens to consistently forget something important to his overall health and well being should suffer harsher consequences than another child who might happen to consistently forget one or two things that have little or no significant consequences, logical or otherwise.

JMO, ~Cath

[Phantaja]

Wow. Things sure have changed. When I was a kid, your options for school lunch were eat or not.

Since they do have the luxury of picking, is there anyway that you can speak to the teacher about having them make their lunch choice on the way home? I'm sure that someone knows what's for lunch the next day, and letting the child check off pizza or chicken strips (or whatever) as s/he is walking out the door would seem to relieve a little stress for everyone.

[pinecone]

We had a similiar issue w/ my 4 yo DD at her Montessori school last year. She brought her snack (and lunch) from home as I would not let her eat the food (so many artificial colors, flavors, corn syrup, it would make your head spin.) She ended up having a couple of more steps to do regarding her snack. When she forgot to follow through 2 days in a row her teacher told her she could not have snack. I was in there talking to the principal as soon as I learned about it. She said that they cannot use food as a reward or punishment, it is agains their policy (not sure if it is legal or not.) This was the beginning of the end for us at this school, because I wanted to have dialog with the teacher about how we could meet DD's (dietary) needs without stress and after sit downs etc, the teacher just got tired of having conversations with me (wouldn't respond to my notes in a week's time or more..) and so we pulled DD.

Sorry to digress, but what I wanted to say was that I agree they can't use food as a punishment. I'm wondering if the children need to do those steps in that order? If so, you've got 20+ kids bumping into each other all trying to do the same thing and that might make some children go in another direction and ultimately "forget" what they needs to do. I don't think it is a horrible consequence for not doing the task, I just wonder if the teacher really leaves enough time for the task to be completed by everyone given the circumstances.

[Thursday Girl]

Originally Posted by CathMac

Jewelysmommy,
I'm not sure I agree with you and TIREDX2. A child sent in with lunch that forgets to put it away does not suffer the same consequences as a child that isn't sent in with a lunch and forgets to make a lunch choice. Unless the brown bagged lunch requires refrigeration (and the lack of refrigeration makes it inedible) then the consequences are more harsh for the child that forgets to make a lunch choice.

but the child still gets to eat, they just have to have a sandwhich instead of something else. the child is not going hungry. they just don't get to have say lasagna or a cheeseburger they have to have the default lunch.

[Marcee]

If the children were older perhaps it would not bother me. But children this age need reminders. I think some teachers expect too much at this age and that some teachers are plain lazy. My first grade nephew has been ordering lunch and eating it as well as eating his lunch from home. His mom just got a letter that said that she owed 23.00 for lunches. His teacher never once called the mom to ask if this was what she wanted.

[CathMac]

Originally Posted by jewelysmommy

but the child still gets to eat, they just have to have a sandwhich instead of something else. the child is not going hungry. they just don't get to have say lasagna or a cheeseburger they have to have the default lunch.

jewelysmommy,
Disregarding the possibility of dietary restrictions, which have already been mentioned, the OP seems concerned about the "picky eater", which is especially problematic since the "default" lunch is the same sandwich every day. If you are blessed with children that will eat anything put in front of them then perhaps this is difficult for you to relate to. And pehaps most of us here can't relate to the nutritionally challenged family, so we can't appreciate that a school lunch might be a critical component of some childrens' diets.

Originally Posted by catchat

…
Apparently, if a child is having school lunch and forgets to sign up the teacher tells them that they must order this certain sandwich (same every time) and won't let them pick. This is before the lunch order lists goes down to the cafeteria. So if it's a kid that doesn't eat this food, then they basically end up eating a small side dish for lunch.

IMHO, this has less to do with applying "natural/logical consequences" as a corrective measure than it does the teacher being unnecessarily punitive with the one morning task she can get away with. Using the examples I gave earlier, parents would be in an uproar if she sent their child to the playground without their coat if they forgot to put it away or had them eat a "default" lunch if they forgot to put away the lunch they brought.

You can bet your bippy that the coats get put away and brown bagged lunches get put away for that very reason. I bet the water gets taken out too ... unless she sends the wrongdoer to the hall to drink from the fountain. Furthermore, I'm guessing the consequences for any one of these other "infractions" is more along the lines of a reprimand and more in keeping with what's appropriate for simply forgetting to do anything else on this morning list.

I don't see what's so hard about helping a child fill out the form --the same way she probably makes sure that everything else gets done-- and applying the same or similar consequence for the other morning tasks that are forgotten.

Anywhoo, just my opinion.
~Cath