classroom rule/lunch choice removed - Page 2

[Viewfinder]

My dd's teacher has fights with the lunch lady about this.

The teacher has so many hands pulling on her, and the lunch lady is one more, who needs this accurate, perfect list, on time, and the lunch lady threatened that the kids would "Not be allowed to have lunch at all" if they weren't on the list correctly, each day, and this was cheerfully passed on to the kids. My dd broke out in tears... some kids LIVE for the lunches... I don't think it is at ALL right to mess with them on it, not in elementary, where they've got recess and running around and they are GROWING. To sit and watch everyone else eating lasagna and jello or whatever, while you're stuck with a tuna sandwich you don't like, can be a jab at a kid's self-esteem, even. And would really pi$$ me off, if my dd was the kid eating the sandwich, salivating over the lasagna... she'd probably not eat at all in 8 yo protest, and that wouldn't be good, would it?

VF

[jauncourt]

Originally Posted by catchat

thanks for the feedback. I do now know that it is against guidelines of the Natl Assoc. of State Boards of Ed

School personnel shall not offer food as a performance incentive or reward and shall not withhold food from students as punishment.

But I'm not sure that it is illegal. If anyone knows that this is illegal I'd love to know some more info to refer to. just in case. thanks!

It isn't necessarily illegal - but I relly wish it was. It might be actionable in some way. Food was used as both punishment and reward in my son's ex pre-k classroom (my son would get one cheerio while everyone else got several cookies if the teacher didn't like his behavior, and would make a big deal out of it - this was witnessed by his HeadStart teacher and her coordinator on an announced observation visit), and months of complaints to the principal and school board (by me and the HeadStart personnel) did nothing, so I took him out (a decision supported by the HeadStart program).

Made me so mad then that I still get a little angry now thinking about it at all. : And I'm mad for you to hear that there is another teacher doing this sort of thing to other kids.

Maura

[Thursday Girl]

Originally Posted by jauncourt

. Food was used as both punishment and reward in my son's ex pre-k classroom (my son would get one cheerio while everyone else got several cookies if the teacher didn't like his behavior, and would make a big deal out of it -

see to me this is a problem, not so much the other issue although I do agree that the teacheer would do well to remind them, and i can't imagine that she wouldn't help them out some doing the morning tasks as everytime i have worked in my dd's class The other teachers and I have heped remind kids of this type of stuff.

[CarrieMF]

My middle dd is in a 1/2 split, the kids are 5-7 YO.

Thier morning tasks are

backpacks up, agendas open on the desk, daily library book put in the bucket & their card placed on the teacher's desk, lunch up on the shelf(every kid brings their lunch), then back outside to play until the bell rings.

99% of the time every kid has this done before the teacher walks in when the bell rings. It is routine, the kids know the routine by this time of the year. They get a gentle reminder if their job is not done.

I don't really see what the teacher is doing as being something wrong. It is certainly NOT illegal as she is not withholding food from them & really is not punishing them she is just making the choice for her.

If it was my kid & my kid was having a problem with it I would go in & talk to the teacher BUT I would have possible solutions too. You can't just go in & say "I want this changed" without having reasonable solutions that would work for the classroom & still get the task done on time.

Things that she could do are:

1) change what the default is every week.

2) she could have the kids involved & make up a chart of what the default would be each week(or day) & have that posted so the kids know before hand.

3) post an enlarged picture of the form on the blackboard(or wherever the desks are facing) to give a reminder to the kids in the morning.

4) if they are individual forms, put 1 on each desk first thing in the morning, or the day before & pick them up

5) if it is the same kids who seem to be forgetting, she could ask them quickly as they leave the classroom the day before what choice they'd like if they forget &/or remind them what the choice is

6) do they have agendas? If so putting a reminder in could be part of agenda time each day.

[ecoteat]

I don't see how this is a big deal. I agree that a natural consequence for not choosing your lunch before the slip goes to the cafeteria is, well, not choosing your lunch. Makes perfect sense to me--IF the teacher is also helping the forgetful kids remember on their own. ("Jane! Don't forget to sign up for lunch before going to recess.")

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by catchat

thanks for responding Oriole.
Just to clarify- the lunch orders are not yet sent to the cafeteria yet at this point. This is the policy of the teacher.

That's ridiculous. It's not a rule, it's very harsh. I would contact the head of the school and make sure this little rule of hers is never used again. It's not proper nor is it right. You can't force a child to eat something they may not like.

A consequence for a child not putting down what they want for lunch should deserve the same type of discipline as anything else in class. They should have points taken away for the day or whatever punishment is used. But a "personal" punishment like telling them what they can or can't eat is abuse. I'm the mother of my child and would never use that punishment even at home.

I'm glad my DD has an excellent kindergarten teacher. In fact, if children forget a snack for the morning when coming to school, she is sure to have extra in her desk drawer for any kids that don't have one. Yeah, I could never see her denying a child their lunch choice simply because they did something wrong. Ridiculous!

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by ecoteat

I don't see how this is a big deal. I agree that a natural consequence for not choosing your lunch before the slip goes to the cafeteria is, well, not choosing your lunch. Makes perfect sense to me--IF the teacher is also helping the forgetful kids remember on their own. ("Jane! Don't forget to sign up for lunch before going to recess.")

Pehaps you should answer this question again in about 5 years. It's hard to comment on something you aren't personally going through with your own child. It's VERY different when it's your child going through any type of punishment by someone other than yourself.

[escher]

I'm a teacher, not a parent, so I'm certainly coming from that perspective. The teacher’s plan sounds reasonable to me. I would bet that she is helping to remind kids who are new to the school or who have special needs. She is keeping track of which kids need lunch who haven't signed up and signing them up for something. She is keeping the entire class from having time wasted each day while she individually asks kids what they want. She is giving the students a small responsibility that has relatively small consequences. It sounds like a good plan to me.

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by mommy68

Pehaps you should answer this question again in about 5 years. It's hard to comment on something you aren't personally going through with your own child. It's VERY different when it's your child going through any type of punishment by someone other than yourself.

Dunno. I agree that it seems like a very logical consequence. My picky eater would have figured out pretty quickly that the solution to not having a crappy lunch was to make sure to choose when he was supposed to. One or two hungry days won't kill them.

[peaceful_mama]

depends, if the slip has not gone down to the cafeteria and a kid comes to the teacher with their form or saying "Oh I almost forgot! I want pizza today!" and is getting told no they have to have the tuna sandwich or whatever, then yeah, it's unfair.

If the slip has to be in to the lunch lady at a certain time (out of teacher's hands), she has told the kids they *have to* order lunch by X time, she has some sort of 'list' (word and pic) outlinining the routine to help the kids remember, and somebody still didn't do it---at this point in the year, I'd say let them eat the crap lunch one day and they will probably remember.

if this is a kid who always forgets this and other things, the teacher should be paying attention enough to know that maybe this kid needs some special help to learn to get organized. AND provide it.

If she's done nothing to help them remember and this is the rule, then it's wrong. They're first graders basically, they are LEARNING TO BE ORGANIZED and they NEED HELP to LEARN this skill. It's her JOB to help them LEARN how to follow this routine, to organize their time so that their stuff gets done. She is, after all, their TEACHER....and it's not limited to academics.

[peaceful_mama]

and to the mom of the HeadStart kid with the cookies---this is exactly why I am worried about sending my 3/yo. I don't think he talks enough yet to tell me this is happening, and this is not something that would likely happen if I am there to witness it.

Good for you for pulling him out! i totally don't agree with food as a reward/punishment/pointed out issue.

And the thing with using food as punishment--one poster said the kid might not eat at all out of protest. What's wrong with that? Well, you've just set up a power struggle involving food, for one. For two, you're setting up to have a hungry kid later, which can then easily lead to more behavior problems.....cycle.......

[GruppieGirl]

Any updates?

At dd's school if she forgets to sign-up for one of the choice sandwich meals she has to either eat the hot meal or pizza. It has to do with the cooks having enough time to prepare all of the different meals.

I guess by forgetting to sign-up for a sandwich, my dd has the consiquence of not receiving her first choice meal. But, she is always guarenteed a balanced meal.

Withholding food is never an option!

Slightly off topic, but I worked with a teacher who always demanded that the children clear their plates. It really bugged me, but the administration didn't seem bothered by her request. I feel that the lunch period is essential a free time for the kids to take a well-deserved break and make their own food choice.

[Thursday Girl]

Originally Posted by zakers_mama

depends, if the slip has not gone down to the cafeteria and a kid comes to the teacher with their form or saying "Oh I almost forgot! I want pizza today!" and is getting told no they have to have the tuna sandwich or whatever, then yeah, it's unfair.

If the slip has to be in to the lunch lady at a certain time (out of teacher's hands), she has told the kids they *have to* order lunch by X time, she has some sort of 'list' (word and pic) outlinining the routine to help the kids remember, and somebody still didn't do it---at this point in the year, I'd say let them eat the crap lunch one day and they will probably remember.

if this is a kid who always forgets this and other things, the teacher should be paying attention enough to know that maybe this kid needs some special help to learn to get organized. AND provide it.

If she's done nothing to help them remember and this is the rule, then it's wrong. They're first graders basically, they are LEARNING TO BE ORGANIZED and they NEED HELP to LEARN this skill. It's her JOB to help them LEARN how to follow this routine, to organize their time so that their stuff gets done. She is, after all, their TEACHER....and it's not limited to academics.

yes exactly that. I may have not clarified that the teacher should be invovled to a point, maybe b/c in my mind of course the teacher would be. My dd's teacher was invovled like this so I assume that is how all teachers would be, and well you know what they say about assuming.