Experienced home buyers/ renovators

[WeasleyMum]

I need your advice! (or maybe just a quick dose of reality.) My DH and I are trying to get a home for the first time. What we can afford is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the area average-- that is, we could swing a 100,000 to 150,000 mortgage, and median home prices are about 300,000 so we're looking at the bottom of the market, pretty much. Little builder-ranches, etc. But we saw this one place...

It's a log cabin that's a total dump really. It has no heat, no a/c, no water heater, no WINDOWS, serious structural damage to one corner. It would take at LEAST $20,000 to become a liveable home as opposed to a summer camp or hunting lodge or whatever it's been used as before. (As far as looking at the outside, I'd guess it's never been someone's home. Right now it's boarded up.) And yet ...I like it. It has character, potential charm. It's by far the worst house in the neighborhood, so I feel that if we can hold on to it long enough we'd recoup whatever we put into the house. But then I tend to be very optimistic. Anyone want to talk some sense into me? We are going to go see inside over the weekend...

Oh, yeah. It's listed at 129K, and we would probably offer a good bit less than that, since really only the lot is worth anything.

[rebeccalizzie]

The main thing I'd look for is structural damage. That would put you WAY above $20,000. Honestly, you would probably be looking at that much just for windows, furnace/AC, new flooring, appliances, fixing any plumbing or electrical problems (likely for a house that's been boarded up for any decent length of time) and probably the roof.

We looked at a house that was in bad but not falling down shape, and we were looking at at least $30,000 to fix it up. That was for the things listed above--it needed a roof ($2 K), all new floors including some subfloor (8-9 K), a bunch of drywall (about 500 because we were doing it ourselves), new heat/AC/water heater (6 K), new windows (3 K), and cabinets/sink/appliances for the kitchen (around $15 K). Oh, and new toilets, sinks and bathtubs in the two bathrooms ($2 K or a little more). The pipes were in okay but "probably need to be fixed" shape (no idea how much that would be). We would have done most of the repairs ourselves, most of that cost was for materials.

Look at the house and make a list of every single thing that needs to be done, then go to Home Depot if you are going to do it yourself, or talk to a contractor if not. We decided it would take us way too long to do it ourselves (we couldn't live there until it was mostly done and couldn't afford the mortgage plus our current mortgage in the meantime). It may be worth it for you, I know other people who have done it.

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by rebeccalizzie

The main thing I'd look for is structural damage. That would put you WAY above $20,000. Honestly, you would probably be looking at that much just for windows, furnace/AC, new flooring, appliances, fixing any plumbing or electrical problems (likely for a house that's been boarded up for any decent length of time) and probably the roof.

We looked at a house that was in bad but not falling down shape, and we were looking at at least $30,000 to fix it up. That was for the things listed above--it needed a roof ($2 K), all new floors including some subfloor (8-9 K), a bunch of drywall (about 500 because we were doing it ourselves), new heat/AC/water heater (6 K), new windows (3 K), and cabinets/sink/appliances for the kitchen (around $15 K). Oh, and new toilets, sinks and bathtubs in the two bathrooms ($2 K or a little more). The pipes were in okay but "probably need to be fixed" shape (no idea how much that would be). We would have done most of the repairs ourselves, most of that cost was for materials.

Look at the house and make a list of every single thing that needs to be done, then go to Home Depot if you are going to do it yourself, or talk to a contractor if not. We decided it would take us way too long to do it ourselves (we couldn't live there until it was mostly done and couldn't afford the mortgage plus our current mortgage in the meantime). It may be worth it for you, I know other people who have done it.

: I would also add as someone who bought a 18th century Victorian that "only" need a few things, one being a roof that cost 20K.. that unless you are handy and plan on doing much of the work yourself, the deal won't be a deal. While I don't hate my house if I could go back we would have not picked the cheaper house that "only" needed some work. Turns out in our case the seemingly small things are now a ton of money and neither dh or I are handy. In your case you are talking structural issues, seems like a money pit waiting to drain you of your cash.

Shay

[zersha]

I think it realy depends on how handy you are. Most of those things could be done yourselves if you have the ability.

We are pretty darn poor. A mortage was not something we could do, and I hate renting, so about 6 yrs ago we bought ourselves a fixer upper mobile home in a nice area. It has needed lots of work, but we (ok me and my dad, dh is not so good) have done almost all the work ourselves while living here. The first couple weeks were bad with no hot water heater or bathtub while the damaged subfloor was being fixed. And then for the rest of the time our family grew from 4-5, but we have still lived in only 2 bedrooms while the 3rd has been being worked on(the worked-on room has rotated, we haven't been working on the same room for 6 yrs. LOL). The only things I've paid to have done were a complete re-plumb, a heater vent to the addition, and when we first moved in to have the roof recoated, but now I can do that myself. I have done plumbing, sheetrocking, roofing, carpentry, etc. All of this was basically learned while living here. So if you think you could aquire those skills, fixing it up will not be as hard as many people would think. But I come from a family where we don't pay for anything we can do ourselves. My grandpa actually did build a house himself in a fairly ritzy part of town while the family lived in the basement while the top was finished. I guess I've learned this 'do it yourself' attitude from my dad.

It would probably also help if one of you can sah. I know we wouldn't have been able to do all this work ourselves if we were both working outside the home.

Is this place out of town with some land? If so, I would jump at it. But that's just me. I would love to be out of town someday with the space to do what I want. (and get some chickens and a horse).


You should also check out the Off the grid/country living forum here for more tips on living there.

[Tofu the Geek]

I'd first take a look at what the renos will REALLY cost you. You say $20,000 to make it liveable....a kitchen and bathroom reno can cost $20,000 in a small house, so just make sure your numbers are realistic before you go ahead.

[Rhiannon Feimorgan]

With a log home in particular even what looks like a small amount of damage to the structure is a big deal. With a standered home, if there is damage to a wall you can remove and replace the drywall or jack up supports for the wall(if it's load bearing) and replace the boards. It might be a lot of trouble, but it only involves the actual wall that is damaged. If there is a log in a log home that is rotting, for instance, you have to remove all the logs above it to replace it. You essentially have to dismantal the house to fix a problem in the structure.

Because it is so much harder and more expencive to fix problems in a log home, they are a lot more expencive to insure.

[nascarbebe]

I'd run the other way if I was you. Especially if you both work, you'll have limited time and energy to fix it up. We bought our house about 5 yrs ago and it needed some work but nothing major. It's a good solid house in an excellent neighborhood. We've worked on it off and on and it can be really frustrating constantly living in a construction zone. We're always doing something to it. But I can't imagine living in a home with major work going on. I dunno, you make it sound like a real money pit. Maybe you should wait for something that doesn't require nearly as much work.

[mightymoo]

Unless you are an experienced do it yourselfer, I wouldn't go near a project that big.

DH and I look for houses that need updating, not serious rennovations. Old style bathrooms, wallpaper, woodwork, etc- they are ugly but otherwise liveable and workable, that way you can take your time fixing it up, but its still very liveable.

[AnalogWife]

We bought what I considered to be the worst house in our small city. It was $149k and we got a 4.9 percent mortgage with a $30k downpayment loan from the city that we don't have to pay until we sell/refi, so we're pretty much stuck here. Luckily, what my DH lacks on income he makes up in handymanship and he's done a *phenomenal* job so far. He cut his teeth on the livingroom and that gave him the confidence to go for the kitchen. We had structural damage which he is fixing (rotted sill, he's taking down all the exterior walls and rebuilding, he had to do a lot of concrete work in the basement, etc.) He works his tail off and it's been a slow process since we both work, we had a baby, and we's broke.

We tore the kitchen apart, down to the joists and the frame, but the rehab itself has cost us maaaaaybe $2000. DH is kind of picky and has quirky tastes and found a vintage 1949 one-owner oven on Craigslist for free, and when he went to pick it up, the guy threw in the old lady's stainless steel sink, metal cabinets, and drawers for free as well (he too was rehabbing, obviously.) Our countertops look like butcherblock but they're parts of a dismantled bowling alley that we got for cheap. The island is made of a piano shell, also found free on Craigslist. The floor is GORGEOUS wide pinewood, was ripped from a 1800s farmhouse, and cost us $50. We exposed the ceiling joists to give it a country-feel, the backsplash and woodstove surface are slate tile found rather cheaply at Home Depot (don't remember the price, but remember not gawking at it in fear) and the woodstove we're installing was a gift from DMIL. The fridge and dishwasher were new and in decent shape, came with the house, so we kept those. We did splurge a little on Andersen windows at Home Depot for $200 apiece, and the rest of the funds when in for 2x4s, sheetrock, plywood, rewiring, paint, nails, etc. We borrowed some electric tools from my brother, others we took advantage of the Home Depot no-interest-for-a-year specials and made chunked out the payments over the year.

We replaced the exterior crap vinyl siding with cedar shingles (LOVE IT!!!) which PP makes a very good point, if you have to redo the walls/foundation, I can't imagine what it would be like in a log home. I'm just here to say that you can toooootally rehab in a budget, but it takes time and luck and a very hard worker (i.e. not for me! I just cook the books and DH does the sweat work.) Good luck!

[KariM]

That's one that I'd stay away from UNLESS I were a licensed contractor myself.

It sounds like you need to correct structural damage in addition to installing most major mechanical systems.

I think an estimate of $20,000 is pretty low, actually.

I've purchased three fixer-uppers and the one that gave me the most headaches (and the only one that resulted in a loss at sale) was one with foundation issues.

From now on, I only buy homes that are structurally sound but am easily able to do minor renovations and remodels.

[Peony]

20K is really, really low to fix a place up that sounds that bad. We poured that much into a Victorian that had already been remodeled, brought up to date, and just needed a few more "extras", and I didn't go with top of the line stuff either. I wouldn't want to touch structural damage with a ten foot pole and I have a contractor father that could help.

One thing to think about, I have a friend that just bought a house that had only been used as a summer cabin, so it had no heating system. She couldn't find a mortgage company to touch them (and they have excellent credit, 20% down) until the house had a heating system in place. It was deemed too risky if they defaulted on the mortgage, so they had to install a heating system BEFORE they could buy the house. In this day and age mortgage companies are being very picky what times of homes they will give mortgages to.

[applecider]

oops! wrong thread!

[oneKnight]

I'm a do it yourselfer but that sounds like a major project. I doubt you would save much money in the long run, unless you get land with it or something.

[KnittingShaker]

If the house has serious structural damage and no heat/windows and you were planning on getting a mortgage, proceed with great caution. A lot of lenders would not finance such a property.

[koofie]

I agree with all of the above. We are trying to buy a fixer-upper with major cosmetic work needed as well s (eventually) plumbing, roof, and electrical. As we first fix up our condo to sell, we are learning our skills. We have just replaced our water heater (copper pipes) and are now about to begin new flooring, counters, and cabinets in the kitchen. We are doing it all ourselves except the counters. If we were not able to do all of this, we wouldn't even think about a fixer-upper, because labor on a project can be 50%+ of a project.

I would pay for an inspection before anything else. At least you can get more info about what you may be getting into.

[WeasleyMum]

Wow, thanks for all the replies, you guys! That's a lot to think about.

I guess there were a few things I should have mentioned: the house isn't really old-- it was built in 1991 so it's only 16 years. The foundation (cinderblock) looks good and the roof looks good. The structural damage is just to one of the wall corners-- but as one poster pointed out, that's a much bigger deal in a log structure.

We haven't seen inside yet! We will on Sunday, and I'm sure we'll see something that's a deal-breaker. So I have no idea about the kitchen, bathrooms... but as it's a pretty recent build I'm not as worried about that. Don't know about the plumbing and wiring, but if those are bad, that would be just too much for me.

And yeah, the DH is a really competent DIYer. He can do pretty much anything-- although we'd call in professionals for the wall work, people who work with logs. I guess financially it seems good to me because everything in that neighborhood (comparable) sells for at least 200,000 and I think we could get this for under 120,000. Seems like we could sink a lot of cash into the house and still get a return on investment, KWIM?

Thanks for the reality check, I guess I was looking for people to tell me to go for it! I tend to be wildly optimistic (read naive) about these things, with a very strong we-can-do-anything! attitude.

[SleeplessMommy]

Yikes!

Check the propertie's ownership/permit history with the county tax records (usually available online)

Look for signs of termites, dry rot, etc. Bring a screwdriver to stab the logs with... its not supposed to go into them. New windows could cost $500 each, or more. Furnace and hot water heater, $3000+ (does not include cost of installing ducts!)

If you fixed it up, would it "match" the neighborhood, or would it stick out as a smaller log cabin.

It sounds like a tear-down and rebuild kind of house.

[lalaland42]

I just want to add that you should talk to some owners of log cabins. My ex really wanted a log cabin and when he talked to some people who owned them, it turned out the log cabin needed some non-standard (for a house) maintenance to keep the place habitable. I don't even remember all the details but I do remember thinking it wasn't practical to buy a log cabin without having a chunk in change for maintenance. Before you buy, I would talk to some people who own log cabins to ask them about the kind of stuff you wouldn't need to think about with a regular house.

[lmonter]

Hmmm... if the house is in falling-down shape, and the land is pretty much worth what you'd offer, I'd be really tempted to buy the land, raze the building (I know some folks across the street that let the fire department burn down their old 1912 sorta-falling-apart house for a safety exercise), and put down a really nice yurt or something until I either had enough money to build a new house or something. Of course, that's only after looking at city/county building codes and such - those hoops (especially with construction and remodeling) can be a witch to deal with depending on your local bureaucracy.

We bought this house 4 years ago. Thinking it "only" needed new floors, a modest kitchen remodel, etc. Well, flooring for the main living areas is like $5K-$9K depending on what kind of wood and that with hubby installing it (which would take a while because he still has to work). The kitchen? Could squeak by with $5K-$6K, if we did Ikea. Two or three times that if we used a local cabinet guy who gave us the best price. And that's not even getting into modifying the bathrooms, the laundry room, un-doing the awfulness the previous owners did to the poor basement, etc.

And guess what? I still have shag carpeting older than me in the house (I try to tell myself it ups the kids' immune systems) and my kitchen is a throwback to the 70's, complete with orange/brown linoleum. I deal with it - just doesn't mean I like it.

[Logan's Mom]

Originally Posted by WeasleyMum

I guess financially it seems good to me because everything in that neighborhood (comparable) sells for at least 200,000 and I think we could get this for under 120,000. Seems like we could sink a lot of cash into the house and still get a return on investment, KWIM?

I would also like to point out that while the homes in the neighborhood sell for 200k it takes a special someone to want to live in a log cabin home. You are going to have less potential buyers than if it were a more traditional type of home.