Help!

[JJMother]

Okay moms, I need your help with some complicated issues surrounding circumcision. We are expecting a boy in late Feburary. I decided that cirucumcision was not for us and our boy will be left intact. Although my husband is very happily circumsized, we both agreed that it really wasn't necessary or ethical to have it done on a baby. So that's that.

Here are my only issues....I asked my 15-year-old brother what he thought. He's your pretty typical boy - a super nice kid who does okay in school, plays sports, has plenty of friends, etc. I specifically asked him if boys got teased in the locker room about being uncircumcized. He said they did, got called names I won't repeat here, etc. He said all the girls in school know who is NOT circed and think it's "gross" and that they joke about how disgusting oral sex would be, etc. I was horrified and dismayed at this news. He seemed pretty adamat that he is really glad to be circed and thinks it would be mean of me not to have my own son done, just based on social stuff.

Secondly, my SIL works in an assisted living facility/skilled nursing facility as an LVN. She is ultimately supportive of whatever we want to do, but did point out that the uncirced men at the living facility are much "more difficult" to care for and keep clean and infection-free. She said that as men get elderly and their capacity to groom themselves, reach "down there" and see what is going on decreases, their hygeine really suffers. She said they (the staff) have to actually retract the foreskins of these men to wash them, and that just seems so completely humiliating for the men. I know that is a LONG way to away to think about, but if it's true she does have a point...

So, not that I am second-guessing myself. Our choice is made not to have it done, I guess I am just hoping for some perspective or insight on this. I know that no choice is without it's consequences and nothing is perfect in this world, but I want to feel great about leaving my son intact and now I am kind of feeling like I am setting him up for a life of humiliation, insults and rejection by the opposite sex (or I guess the same sex)...

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by JJMother

Okay moms, I need your help with some complicated issues surrounding circumcision. We are expecting a boy in late Feburary. I decided that cirucumcision was not for us and our boy will be left intact. Although my husband is very happily circumsized, we both agreed that it really wasn't necessary or ethical to have it done on a baby. So that's that.

Yay!

Here are my only issues....I asked my 15-year-old brother what he thought. He's your pretty typical boy - a super nice kid who does okay in school, plays sports, has plenty of friends, etc. I specifically asked him if boys got teased in the locker room about being uncircumcized. He said they did, got called names I won't repeat here, etc. He said all the girls in school know who is NOT circed and think it's "gross" and that they joke about how disgusting oral sex would be, etc. I was horrified and dismayed at this news. He seemed pretty adamat that he is really glad to be circed and thinks it would be mean of me not to have my own son done, just based on social stuff.

1.) I really don't buy it and when I went to HS less than 10 years ago circumcision rates were significantly higher than they are now. While most male American children born a decade or more ago are circumcised, today the rate is much lower, about 50/50 nationwide.

2.) Even if it were true, kids get teased for an enormous variety of things, including hair color, freckles, birthmarks, teeth, glasses, being too skinny, being too heavy, accent, lisp, having a big nose, etc, etc, etc. It's our job as parents to teach our children to accept, respect, and value diversity.

3.) You need to educate you're brother. Chances are he has no idea what circumcision entails, the functions & value of the foreskin, or what he lost. You should have him watch a circumcision video---Penn & Teller would probably be a great choice considering his age. You should also share that foreskin restoration has many benefits and can be accomplished without surgery. If what he learns disturbs him and he becomes unhappy with what was done to him without his consent, at age 18 he has the option of suing the hospital/his circumciser. More young men need to do this!

Secondly, my SIL works in an assisted living facility/skilled nursing facility as an LVN. She is ultimately supportive of whatever we want to do, but did point out that the uncirced men at the living facility are much "more difficult" to care for and keep clean and infection-free. She said that as men get elderly and their capacity to groom themselves, reach "down there" and see what is going on decreases, their hygeine really suffers. She said they (the staff) have to actually retract the foreskins of these men to wash them, and that just seems so completely humiliating for the men. I know that is a LONG way to away to think about, but if it's true she does have a point...

That's standard hygiene, she chose her profession, shame on her for complaining! A woman's labia need to be parted to clean effectively, too, especially if the patient is incontinent. Is that a reasonable justification for removing a little girl's labia...because some day she might be incapable of caring for her self? Of course not. The same holds true for men. Care is simple: Retract, Rinse (or Wipe), Replace. That's it. Oral care is a lot more complicated and time consuming.

So, not that I am second-guessing myself. Our choice is made not to have it done, I guess I am just hoping for some perspective or insight on this. I know that no choice is without it's consequences and nothing is perfect in this world, but I want to feel great about leaving my son intact and now I am kind of feeling like I am setting him up for a life of humiliation, insults and rejection by the opposite sex (or I guess the same sex)...

Foreskins are standard equipment, no more embarrassing or problematic than a woman's labia or clitoral hood. Worldwide, 80% of men are intact. In the U.S., nationwide, only about 50% of boys are being cut and that rate is continuing to decrease. Your son will be be fine.

Jen

[Papai]

Went to school in the US my whole life, never knew anyone's status and I was never teased for being intact. I think your bro might be exaggerating it to make you circ.

As for the old men thing, why is no fuss ever made about old women? Do nurses not have to wipe and stretch all those folds? Isn't that a diificult task for older women to do? Yet no one demands women be circ'd for this reason.

[Friday13th]

My husband went through high school not all that long ago and claims he never had problems with being made fun of. I'm guessing your brother has fallen prey to the typical adolescent boy ignorance of the foreskin.

I know a lot of the kids we went to school with didn't actually know who was circ'd and who wasn't and had these images of in their heads of foreskins being something gross and terrible looking. One kid was adamant that the foreskin covered the head of the penis in such a way that you couldn't actually pee unless it was removed. Another was convinced he wasn't circumcised because he thought circumcision was chopping off the entire head of the penis.

[buckeyedoc]

DH tells me no one ever talked about who was or wasn't circumcised when he was in school, even on the football team where guys were showering communally. I never heard anything about intact guys when I was in school, either, but I probably would have thought it was a cool European thing. It's true that kids are desperate to fit in in their adolescence, but they will probably be teased about something regardless of circumcision status. DH has friends who are brothers and grew up intact in the midwest (they are in their 30s now). Both were well-liked and had many beautiful girlfriends, so it was not a detriment at all to their dating lives. Circ rates have been falling ever since, so there is little likelihood my sons will be the only intact ones at school.

The nursing home story is a total non-issue to me. A man in a nursing home has lived a long and happy life with a foreskin, so why should it suddenly be a problem that a nurse has to bathe him at the end of his life? The same thing happens with vaginas and breasts (and butts!). It's the job of the nursing home staff to perform this kind of care, and there should not be any foreskin problems if they are properly tending to the men. Plus, plenty of people live on their own for their entire lives. Why deprive a man of this body part just to avoid the possibility that someone will have to pull it back and rinse under it if he becomes elderly and incapacitated 80 or 90 years from now?

Go with your gut about not circumcising. You will raise a son who is a fantastic person, and his intactness will be a pro to a woman, not a con. You'll also find that it is less of a big deal than you thought. I never saw an intact penis until I had DS#1, but it looked normal to me (and a circumcised one abnormal - sorry DH!) after almost no time at all.

[Bm31]

I think the claims of a 15 year old may be exaggerated just a bit. Even if he's in a particularly mean school, there is life well beyond high school that they can't comprehend at that age, and it's the intact male that will have the last laugh on that issue. Also, you might ask your SIL just how maintenance-free the female residents there are...and from my exp. at the nursing home where my mother was, about 90% of the residents ARE female. On the rare chance that an intact man has to go to a nursing home, he deserves to have his genitals properly cared for the same as a woman.

[2crazykids]

My DH played all sorts of sports and he's been nekked around all sorts of men. He promises me that NEVER has any other guy even peeked at his penis nor has any other person, adolescent or otherwise, ever said a word to him about being intact.

Thank goodness!

I think that young man you mentioned may be exagerating a bit...or if that's not the case then something else is going on b/c according to my DH boys do not discuss each other's penii (?) in the locker room. He would know, he coaches High school sports.

[phdmama06]

Wonderful that you are going to leave your son intact! The US circ rates have been falling, so he will be in good company

I'm not sure if I would buy one fifteen-year-old's opinion on the social effects of circ status. I also think he may be exaggerating his point a fair bit. I can honestly say I went through high school without knowing anything or hearing rumors about my male classmates' status. I didn't hear even *one* comment about foreskins being disgusting during high school or college (and yes, I heard plenty of sex talk...). My DH's experience was the same. He didn't even know his own brother's status until we found out from MIL - when the topic came up recently with her. Also, what cause would young boys/men have to be examining each others' private parts? Community showers are not as common as they used to be, and I think that any guy caught staring at another one's penis would more likely become the object of ridicule, if anything.

The nursing home issue is a complete non-issue to me. Men live in nursing homes all over the world, and the vast majority of them are intact (since the US is one of the biggest circ'ing nations). I don't see why bathing would suddenly become a problem all of a sudden - it is the nurse's JOB to bathe the residents - male, female, intact, circumcised. Female residents have nooks and crannies that have to be cleaned, and so do circumcised males - why is a foreskin such a big hassle when there are already plenty of body parts to clean? And do I need to subject my newborn to unnecessary surgery so maybe one day a nurse will have a slightly "easier" time cleaning him? Nope, not my responsibility.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Kids will be made fun of for anything. The answer to dealing with any possible teasing is to teach the boy to be happy and proud that he has a intact body and feel sad for those who do not. To a 15yo just hearing it happen 1 time could have blown it all out of proportion for him. I agree with the pp who said you need to sit down with him and explain to him exactly what the foreskin is and how it functions and give him information on how to restore.

As for the nursing home. Ask her how much care it takes for the woman. Do they not get infections because their hygein falls off in old age? I bet the answer there is the same they have to take extra care to clean them as well. It is a none issue to me. Caring for the elderly is a all inclusive thing. It is their job that they picked and that is just part of it.

[Mommiska]

Just a perspective from someone living in the UK (where the majority of men in nursing homes would be intact, although some would be circed, as circumcision was more common in the UK 60+ years ago (it's very rare now - only for religious reasons or medical 'necessity').

I have a friend who used to work in a nursing home several years ago, so I asked her about this issue (since it seems to come up fairly regularly as a 'reason' to cut a newborn).

She said it was a non-issue. Some elderly men were circed, some weren't - she didn't think about it one way or the other (except to wonder why the circed men were circed, as she'd never seen a circed penis before that). She felt a bit sorry for the cut men, but said that it really wasn't an issue of one being harder to clean than the other - she said that women really are the more difficult to keep clean.

So - the problem is the attitude of the US nursing staff - who are predominantly women who are used to circumcision, rarely (if ever) have seen an intact penis, have been told that intact penises are 'gross', 'dirty', etc.

BUT - should your son one day need nursing home care (not terribly likely, but it might happen) - the nursing staff who will be caring for him will be like my friend. They will be used to intact men (because I promise you - 70-80 years from now, the US will be a predominantly non-circing nation), so it won't be a big deal.

They will clean whoever needs to be cleaned, and they'll pity the cut men, if they think about it at all.

[hakunangovi]

First, congratulations on your decision to keep your son intact. One day he will thank you.

As for the teasing thing - Certainly not my experience. I spent my entire school career in boys boarding schools with totaly open , communal shower rooms. About 2/3 were circ'd, 1/3 intact. No one is "shy" or "homophobic" at six years old , or for a lot of years later. We all knew everyone's status, and even labeled them. The circumcised boys were called "Roundheads", the intact ones "Cavaliers". I do not recall one single comment regarding someone's foreskin status. We just seemed to accept that there were differences. Of course there was lots of teasing over other things.

As for the nursing home - I can't see what is so "difficult" about retracting a foreskin, giving things a rinse and putting it forward again.

[Telle Bear]

Originally Posted by JJMother

Here are my only issues....I asked my 15-year-old brother what he thought. He's your pretty typical boy - a super nice kid who does okay in school, plays sports, has plenty of friends, etc. I specifically asked him if boys got teased in the locker room about being uncircumcized. He said they did, got called names I won't repeat here, etc. He said all the girls in school know who is NOT circed and think it's "gross" and that they joke about how disgusting oral sex would be, etc. I was horrified and dismayed at this news. He seemed pretty adamat that he is really glad to be circed and thinks it would be mean of me not to have my own son done, just based on social stuff.

.

I have a 13 year old nephew, who is the quarterback for his highschool football team (big since he is only a freshman), plays laccross and any other sport he can...I had a conversation with him about circ and he said he has never heard anyone get made fun of...he said that if someone mad a comment about someone else "piece" they would be made fun of for looking...So that what's going on up here and we have the highest circ rate, so you would think this would be a "rougher" place..

[amydep]

I asked my DH about this (the locker room thing) and he said that he can honestly say that no one made comments about anyone else's genitals at all. He said that while in the locker room showering or whatever, they all made a point to look in the other direction. So, I really tend to not believe the whole locker room myth.

[Frootloop]

I also have to say congrats for your decision to leave your son intact!!!!

Since I'm female, therefore not a male who was privvy to these so called locker room foreskin discussions, I can't really offer up any info on that (although, I really think that was exaggerated by your brother).. BUT! I did work in a nursing home for a few weeks (training to be a CNA), so I can comment on this one.

I never personally had to do it, but I STRONGLY feel that retracting a grown man's foreskin is absolutely nothing compared to other "humiliating" things that go on daily in nursing homes. I hate to get TMI here, but I feel it's a bit beneficial to this convo.

I am NOT trying to offend here or sound degrading to the elderly.

Women have many more folds and nooks and crannies that have to be cleaned than a man. They have labia that need to be moved around, and I'm sorry, but when you're old.. well, you're a wee bit wrinkly. It's just a fact of life. Your butt has sagged down to pretty much nothing more than wrinkly flesh.. to clean those folds, yeeeeeh.. well, we'll just say that there's more to it than spreading the buttcheeks. The labia is pretty much the same. As are the breasts than need to be gently cleaned under (you can't just wipe away.. you MUST be more gentle with the elderly's skin as it can be very thin).

Same for men! You've got wrinkly butts, wrinkly scrotum and penises, wrinkly armpits, wrinkly everyyyyyything. It all needs to be wiped.

In addition to your basic hygiene..

You get thrown up on, pooped on, and peed on. You wipe away snot, coughed up mucus, etc.

I only worked on the floor for just over a week before I had to quit. I couldn't take it. I had just lost my father and wasn't ready to deal with all of it.

I will say it again.. RETRACTING A FORESKIN IS NOTHING. It's just one more *fold*. I seriously don't understand why the nurses/CNAs complain about this. It's just another thing to move out of the way big whoopdedoo!

[Yulia_R]

could you pm me your email?

I'll email you BUNCH of great info with alot of good studies (including those that were published in medical magazines), awesome videos and just my thoughts on the subject. I'm SURE it will help...
yulia.

[JJMother]

THanks everyone for your input. It makes me feel a lot better and I really appreciate everyone sharing with me.

In my SIL's defense, she wasn't really complaining about having to clean intact penises - I think she was more saying that she felt bad for the men because it was such a deep invasion of their privacy and something no proud man would want for himself. She doesn't feel the same with women because she is a woman, and women are used to caring for one another. KWIM? She really is supportive of us choosing not to circumsize, and I don't think she was trying to convince me to do it, just giving me food for thought.

My brother.....while I don't think he was lying to me (he really couldn't care less about any parenting choices I make - if I told him I was going to feed my kid pureed pizza instead of nursing he'd say "cool."), I think he may have been exaggerating. I remember when I was in school one boy being called anteater or armadillo or something because he was the only one in my class not circumsized, but it wasn't mean spirited, just guys razzing one another. He laughed about it too. And I do believe it will be different in another 15 years when my own child has the locker room experience.

And anyway, I guess it will build character regardless!

[Galatea]

Your brother's comment also shows typical ignorance of the foreskin. An erect penis will have the foreskin naturally retracted, so most likely the girls giving the oral sex wouldn't know the difference. They would only notice if the guy was not erect when beginning the oral sex. And there is not a teenage boy out there who would not be completely erect before his pants were even unzipped.

[SammyJr]

Originally Posted by JJMother

Okay moms, I need your help with some complicated issues surrounding circumcision. We are expecting a boy in late Feburary. I decided that cirucumcision was not for us and our boy will be left intact. Although my husband is very happily circumsized, we both agreed that it really wasn't necessary or ethical to have it done on a baby. So that's that.

Your son is lucky.

Here are my only issues....I asked my 15-year-old brother what he thought. He's your pretty typical boy - a super nice kid who does okay in school, plays sports, has plenty of friends, etc. I specifically asked him if boys got teased in the locker room about being uncircumcized. He said they did, got called names I won't repeat here, etc. He said all the girls in school know who is NOT circed and think it's "gross" and that they joke about how disgusting oral sex would be, etc. I was horrified and dismayed at this news. He seemed pretty adamat that he is really glad to be circed and thinks it would be mean of me not to have my own son done, just based on social stuff.

I can't imagine that actually the case. I graduated from high school 10 years ago and any locker room nudity was brief and none of the guys were checking out other guys. My school had a decent number of European and Mexican immigrants, so I'm sure there were intact guys around. I never heard any comments made one way or the other. Besides, what straight guy is going to look close enough at another male to know his status and then admit to peaking? I view this as a nonissue.

Worst case, your son can let the entire locker room know that someone else was checking out his penis, but like I said, I can't see it happening.

Secondly, my SIL works in an assisted living facility/skilled nursing facility as an LVN. She is ultimately supportive of whatever we want to do, but did point out that the uncirced men at the living facility are much "more difficult" to care for and keep clean and infection-free. She said that as men get elderly and their capacity to groom themselves, reach "down there" and see what is going on decreases, their hygeine really suffers. She said they (the staff) have to actually retract the foreskins of these men to wash them, and that just seems so completely humiliating for the men. I know that is a LONG way to away to think about, but if it's true she does have a point...

Ask you SIL how she feels about cleaning old lady labia, especially the diapered ones. I sincerely doubt that cleaning an intact male is any worse than cleaning a woman.

This is also a non issue. If a person has issues with cleaning up incontinent old people crotch then maybe that person should work some place besides a nursing home? No one should make surgical decisions for their son based on the comfort of squeamish nursing home employees of 80-90 years from now.

So, not that I am second-guessing myself. Our choice is made not to have it done, I guess I am just hoping for some perspective or insight on this. I know that no choice is without it's consequences and nothing is perfect in this world, but I want to feel great about leaving my son intact and now I am kind of feeling like I am setting him up for a life of humiliation, insults and rejection by the opposite sex (or I guess the same sex)...

Self esteem is more important for all of these. If your son feels good about himself and projects confidence, he won't have any problems. He'll easily be able to diffuse any nasty situtation. In any case, a mutilated penis isn't a vaccine against teasing, despite what Dr. Schoen might have you believe.

[cherri0196]

1st off Congrats on your up-coming baby boy!!!

Quote:
Here are my only issues....I asked my 15-year-old brother what he thought. He's your pretty typical boy - a super nice kid who does okay in school, plays sports, has plenty of friends, etc. I specifically asked him if boys got teased in the locker room about being uncircumcized. He said they did, got called names I won't repeat here, etc. He said all the girls in school know who is NOT circed and think it's "gross" and that they joke about how disgusting oral sex would be, etc. I was horrified and dismayed at this news. He seemed pretty adamat that he is really glad to be circed and thinks it would be mean of me not to have my own son done, just based on social stuff.


*** I agree i think your brother may have been overexsadurating (sp?) i just graduated from HS 3 years ago and i knew quite a few intact guy's no biggie, i have never heard of any teasing, no negative comment's from the other girls (and you know us girls talk about EVERYTHING) if it isn't the foreskin then it will be his hair or teeth or eye's or freckles or any little thing the other kids can come up with, kids are just plain mean but you have to tech your kids to be confident in themselves and they will be fine :-)

[serendipity22]

He seemed pretty adamat that he is really glad to be circed and thinks it would be mean of me not to have my own son done, just based on social stuff.

I think it is very mean of him to say this. He is being irrational.

I'm sure he wasn't really glad to be circed at the time.

I don't think he really understands what circ is.