convince me to skip MMR

[Piglet68]

I'm going to start off by saying that not vaccinating my child lies WAAAAY outside my comfort zone. I haven't had a chance to research this issue to the depth I'd like, and being educated within the health sciences system I feel as though I'm going against a deep grain of core beliefs I've always held.

My DD has been vaxed (except the Hep B, which we declined b/c I felt she was too young at 2 days old!!). But now at 1 yr old it's time for MMR. We move around alot and dont' have a steady doctor, so nobody to bug us about this. I just haven't gotten around to going to a doc for it.

I am really wondering why I need to do this. I had mumps as a kid and it was NBD. I do know that it is alot harder in an adult (my mother had it as an adult). Same with measles. I don't know much about rubella except I know someone on this board was dealing with it and it seemed again to be not such a big deal.

Sooo....I want you guys to convince me. Give me some good links (CDC, etc) that a scientist like myself can "buy". And tell me a bit about the history of this vax (did we get it as kids in the early 70's? I don't think so).

I don't want to do this vax, but I'm a bit scared of going so against the grain...

[Nemmer]

This is the vaccine I've been focusing my study on lately too, as my DS is now 15 months and I want to know why I feel strongly that I should at least delay it. The more I read about vaccines, I feel inclined to delay them all until at least age two. But I'm sure the other very knowledgeable ladies here can provide you with more concrete links and info.

For me, I have looked at the incidence of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella in my state. In 2002 there were 0 cases of Measles, 1 case of Mumps, and 0 cases of Rubella. I think the Mumps was in a 5-10 year old child, but can't remember for sure. That is my first line of reasoning I plan to give the doctor if she asks. I've also done some reading about how the disease works -- ie. what the symptoms are, what the complications are, effective ways to treat it. I've decided that, besides chicken pox, these diseases are the least of all the "vaccine preventable diseases" that I would worry about my child getting.

Oh, and I was born in 1974 and WAS vaccinated with MMR. My mom was kind enough to save my immunization record and give it to me when I got married, so I know. I believe the vax started in 1963, if I remember my facts right. Again, I'm sure the ladies here will be more helpful, but that's my input.

Outta time! Good luck, Piglet.

[Elphaba]

well, my one little piddly bit of advice is to read the package insert (you can do that online, too). when i finally got to read the damn thing, i realized why i had an adverse reaction to it. the mmr, along with some other vaxes, contains neomycin. i am a person who is deathly allergic to most antibiotics, and it's a family thing, so i have to assume my dd also has that tendency because the risk is too great to expose her to antibiotics to test the theory.
anyway, i talked to the ped about it and he said no way would he let my dd get that shot or any other with neomycin in it.
so anyway, check the ingredients. if there's something in there that your family has reacted to, then skip it.
otherwise, i'd say just wait a bit since now the recommendations are 15-18 months old to get the mmr not 12 like it used to be.

[BusyMommy]

Well, I think most drs now wait until 15mos. My dr said it was safer. Wow.

We just got ds' 2 weeks ago at 2.5 years. I do think it's criminal to give it when they're so young and their immune system isn't as developed.

We gave Vit C 5 days before/after and he was in perfect health.

Anyhoo, the ladies here will give you compelling advice to skip it altogether. Horrid decision to make.

[mommabear]

Hi Piglet! I am in Vancouver too, and in a regular old Save-On-Foods I found a book published by alive books on alternatives to vaxes (they are also in health food stores). In the Natural Family Living book by Peggy O'Mara there is a great section on vaxes and I think I recall reading that in certain populations 80% of the people who came down with measles were vaxed. Also, for your dd, when she is much older and wants to become a mom herself that may be when she could choose to have the rubella vax (to protect her future unborn babies), if she hasn't had the real illness. I have a son (unvaxed) and want him to have mumps (the real thing, not the vax) before he is an adult (can cause sterility in older males, but not in children). Basically, I guess I am trying to say that these illnesses (measles, mumps, and rubella) are normal illnesses of childhood, but in adulthood can lead to complications. I am also terrified of the potential negatives of the MMR vax. A teenage boy lives down my street and has many disabilities that are unequivocally related to having the vax as a child. I also worked with children with autism, many of whom actually had vaccination poisoning. I have a couple of good books on the topic and maybe could get them to you somehow to borrow and read. Dh works on Venables (off Commercial Dr.). Would it be convenient for you to pick them up there? (If you are interested, of course!) It is a very challenging decision to make, and I only feel confident in my decision now because of the lengthy research I did. Good luck, and please let me know if you are interested in borrowing the books (I think I have three, including the ones I mentioned above -- the third is a great outline of vaxes in general and has info on each of the specific ones too)

[Tracy]

Just how many cases of all these vax-diseases do we get here in the united states? (by the way, if you are out of the us I recommend you search your country’s online stats)

This is one of the hardest to find pages at the cdc… the way that I actually found this page was by accident. I had called the CDC to find out about hib cases and I got a doctor and he sent me to this page…

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html

if you download the current issue it gives you the most uptodate stat that the cdc has on the reportable diseases by the way, the stats are at the end of the document. Anyway, I would start there first.

[Piglet68]

Thanks for the link, trabot.

Is there any way to tell whether the cases of certain notifiable diseases occurred in people who were vaccinated for them?

[Tracy]

piglet, I've wondered that too. I think that if you are up for it, you can call the cdc and ask for the disease department. I believe they are broken up that way... "measles, please." and once you get there, you ask them if they know that stat. I think they would not be comfortable putting that on a link that we could easily find but they still might know it.

But really if you look at those numbers you'll see how low measles, mumps and rubella are...

[mommabear]

I have pm'd Piglet68 the name of one of the books I used in my research and just thought I should pass it along to others. It is called: "The Vaccine Guide: Making an Informed Choice" and it is written by Randall Neustaedter. I found it to be extremely informative.

[Casual Storm]

Piglet,
The link below will give you detailed info about measle cases in the USA on a trimester basis, and it includes whether or not the person was vaccinated and how many times (if known):
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/revb/...les_update_usa

Karin

[Tracy]

karin,
what an informative link at the cdc...do you know if there are similiar links for the other vac diseases...?

[padomi]

Piglet68, my dd is three days older than yours. I passed on the MMR at her 1 year visit. And this was for three reasons 1) just about every mom I know has had a baby have a bad reaction to this shot - that alone tells me this is NOT a good thing; 2) I read so many things about the link between autism and MMR and true or not, I didn't want to take the chance; and 3) gut instinct told me not to, and I always regret it when I don't follow my gut.

I may re-evaluate at 2 yrs old, but for now, dd is MMR-free. Good luck with your decision.

[Piglet68]

Thanks you guys! You're wonderful.

Now, last question:

does anybody have a link to data showing negative reactions to the MMR vaccine? what are the statistics (ie. what's the chance DD will have a negative reaction?).

I see from the CDC data that 1/3000 cases of measles in children resulted in serious complications. If the incidence of complications from the vax is significantly higher, then the decision seems to be clear.

TIA!

[Casual Storm]

Piglet-
Wouldn't the package insert have the clinical trial statistics in it?

trabot-
I don't know if the CDC files any other reports like that, I just happened to find that one when I was researching the MMR...

[goodpapa]

Here, Piglet,

is a New Alternative "forest" for your examination of "trees"


This is truly the knowledge we need to replace the World Health Organization:


http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/N...charchive.html


Time for some homework,

Ray


P.S. Here's info not just about Thimerosal, but, by extension, about the credibility of the Pharmaceutical Industry.

http://www.childscreen.org/geier.pdf

[suschi]

Piglet, this vaccine was not around when I was growing up.

It was not considered life threatening to get measles mumps or rubella.

Other vaccines not around when I was growing up,

Hib, Hep B, Prevnar, Chickenpox

The only ones I remember, DPT, polio and smallpox.

My parents only had 1 dose of 1 vaccine before they started school, smallpox.

Today's infants are slated to get up to 40 doses.

Something else that wasn't around when I was growing up, asthma. Oh, it may have been around somewhere, but no where near what you see today. I never heard of it until I got older. Now it seems every other child I know has some form of it.

Vaccines are designed to trick the immune system. It took 30 years before we heard what the measles vaccine is really doing...it's preventing babies from getting the protection they need in the early months since a vaccinated mother cannot pass on the same level of protection as a mom who suffered from natural measles.

I don't think our immune system is so easily tricked. I definitely don't think it's something that they should be experimenting on, with our babies.

Christine

[Piglet68]

Re: Here, Piglet,

Thanks to all of you for your stories and references. I've been doing as much reading as I can. I'm afraid I'm not yet convinced on many points, though I am still researching the differences between immunity gained through vaccination versus immunity gained through getting these illnesses as a child (and the concern that I'll *want* my child to get them if they aren't vaxed and wonder how to go about ensuring they do, lol).

Originally posted by goodpapa
This is truly the knowledge we need to replace the World Health Organization: http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/N...charchive.html

Thank you for responding, and for this link. I checked it out, but I'm afraid to report that I didn't find it credible. For just one example, the page called "The Laws of the Pharmaceutical Industry" contained some information that was inaccurate and, in some cases, just patently false.

Unfortunately, once I've read something like that, it just isn't credible to me anymore. I say this not to criticize you in any way, but just to let you and others out there know that this might not be the best website to recommend to people.

Thankfully, thimerisol is not in any vaccines given in Canada. We banned it a few years before the US did.

[sea island mama]

Hi Piglet,
I read the Vaccine Guide that mommabear recommended. Have you read it yet? I found the background on the vaccine industry very interesting. Wonder how much of it is true : Anyway, he recommends that if you are going to get these vaccines, to get them separately. Autism has been known to develop in people who naturally contracted measles & mumps at the same time. My sister actually had a bad reaction to the shot a few years ago when she was planning to TTC. Her hands swelled up & lost feeling & she ended up having to get carpal tunnel surgery in both hands. I don't know if she ever got all the feeling back.
I have decided not to get this vaccine for my kids, mainly because they could have a bad reaction & still end up getting the disease. I would much rather they got them naturally as children. Of course that could be a little difficult if no-one gets them any more because of the vaccine...

[kama'aina mama]

I'm not a scientist. I'm just a mom. I look at it like this. I can choose on any day to get the vaccine. But once I get it I can't go back and unget it. So NOT getting is my default since it is irreversable.

That said, we are talking about childhood illnesses. Best gotten while young. None of the vaccines last more than (help me here vax smarties!) about a dozen years. So as I understand it the current schedule 'protects' our kids from these illnesses only during the period that they are moderately harmless!!! They start to become succeptable again around puberty (unless they get timely boosters, and unless those work) which is when they are dangerous. Mumps in a sexaully mature male can cause sterilisation, Rubella is a very serious concern for women of child bearing age. I guess when push comes to shove I would rather my child had real, lasting immunity rather than a temporary, chemical one.

Good luck with this important and difficult decision.

Oh, and on athe subject of getting/not getting... I have a dear friend in her 30's who was totally unvaxed. She was required to get the Rubella vax (either for college or for her marriage license, I forget) when in her 20's. She got Rubella and was deathly ill for over a week. She was reported to the CDC.

[goodpapa]

Just curious Piglet...

...did you look at any of the numerous studies on the specific page that I linked?

Now your judging the forest without looking at any of the trees.

As far as "credibility" is concerned, practically every day I read of a new medical mistake that has damaged individuals. What happened to HRT?, etc., etc.

Even the medical industry itself admits 100,000 deaths a year due to "mistakes."

"Thankfully, thimerisol is not in any vaccines given in Canada. We banned it a few years before the US did."

I'd kinda like to see proof of this, in as much as it has never been "banned" in the U.S. A recommendation was made, but there was never a recall and reports are saying that its still in the vaccines.

But what about the fact that Thimerosal WAS in the vaccines at any time?? What does that say about the CREDIBILITY of any and all vaccine manufacturers?? What about the other outrageous toxins that these vaccines contain. What about the epidemic of Autism in the U.S? and numerous other chronic maladies that not only can no one explain, but none of these medical organizations even want to look at?


This is the forest that you should have been evaluating before, while you were displaying your knowledge of biochemistry, essentially landing yourself into unknown territory that OBVIOUSLY the pharmaceutical industry should have cleared up BEFORE they devised these clearly experimental products that we are supposed to have injected into the flesh of our children.

"...just to let you and others out there know that this might not be the best website to recommend to people."

How audacious!!


Ray