Struggling with TF vs vegetarianism - Page 2

[haleyelianasmom]

Originally Posted by spughy

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. I was raised in a hunting-fishing-gathering-gardening family, and I've always known where food comes from, and I have no problem looking an animal in the eye and then killing it, nor, I think, do most ethical farmers. It is not the most pleasant part of a day, to be sure, but it is not the soul-destroying act that people who were NOT raised in close proximity to the reality of their meat like to think. I am, by most accounts, a reasonably concientious, compassionate, caring individual with no psychopathic tendencies (you'll just have to believe me on that one) and I have been called upon to dispatch friends' chickens and have done so with no moral quibbles and no more trauma than a mild disturbance at the lingering burnt-feather smell from singeing off the pinfeathers. I have looked rabbits in the eye and shot them, admired moose and yet rejoiced when my father's gun felled them, and met pigs and felt little remorse eating their bacon later. Am I some sort of monster? I don't think so. I abhor cruelty to animals, I cringe - and intervene, if I don't have DD with me - when I see someone doing something like beating their dog for a lack of obedience. I can't stand to hear babies cry, or see puppies left alone, or even see the sad little betta fish in those nasty tiny tanks at the pet store. Cruelty IS a very different thing than ending a life - I have seen both, and the quick end to an animal's life is NOT traumatic. The two concepts are not inextricably linked, death is not the same as suffering.

Perhaps it is because I grew up in a big city where no one hunted or farmed, but most of the people I know are grossed out about the idea of killing an animal. They are disgusted by dissections, they get upset at slaughter videos or any talk of where their meat came from... I think that is disrespectful. And it isn't a concept I made up either, it's addressed in the book I referenced. I have a lot of respect for people who raise animals humanely and naturally and are okay with where their meat came from. And I agree that death and suffering aren't the same as I said that for many factory farmed animals (unfortunately), the slaughter might be the easiest part. Besides, in veterinary medicine animals are euthanized. My husband will be completing his vet degree this may, but he won't be cruel for euthanizing sick animals. Viewing animals as a product not a life is dangerous, and that's what is happening in large-scale farms.

[spughy]

Originally Posted by magstphil

i agree with you here. but also that are living breathing intelligent beings. like pigs having the IQ of a small human child. there could be a lot of factors. i do know people who could kill a cow and eat it no problem but then i know those who can't even stand do see a dog leashed. depends on the person.

Yeah, totally. Like there are some people who stay really thin even surrounded by fast food and HFCS and all that, and some people get fat. There's a huge amount of individual variation in all aspects of being human.

(An aside - I know you meant it as just an example, but the leash thing kinda gets me... I walk my dog off-leash because she is *really* well-trained, but I see people with off-leash dogs who have no control over them and I saw an off-leash dog get hit by a car a few weeks ago Sometimes a leash is a kindness, especially for dogs like huskies who are notoriously not keen on the whole "come" command. Well actually I don't think those dogs should be pets at all, but that's a whole 'nother digression. Anyway. Sorry for the derailment.)

Um, but - I don't think there's very many vegetarians amongst the Inuit, or the Maasai. So I think culture does play a huge role too.

[spughy]

Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom

Perhaps it is because I grew up in a big city where no one hunted or farmed, but most of the people I know are grossed out about the idea of killing an animal. They are disgusted by dissections, they get upset at slaughter videos or any talk of where their meat came from... I think that is disrespectful. And it isn't a concept I made up either, it's addressed in the book I referenced. I have a lot of respect for people who raise animals humanely and naturally and are okay with where their meat came from. And I agree that death and suffering aren't the same as I said that for many factory farmed animals (unfortunately), the slaughter might be the easiest part. Besides, in veterinary medicine animals are euthanized. My husband will be completing his vet degree this may, but he won't be cruel for euthanizing sick animals. Viewing animals as a product not a life is dangerous, and that's what is happening in large-scale farms.

Um, so I think we're in agreement here? Many of the people I know now - because I live in a city now, not the rural-ish area where I grew up - are equally grossed out by the whole killing thing. I have friends who won't eat any meat that comes with a bone in it, friends who won't eat any animal that's a Disney character, etc. - but they all still do eat factory-farmed chickens. What I'm saying is, that attitude is much more a product of a culture where all our knowledge of animals comes from books and TV than it is any *intrinsic*, objective ethical problem with the death of an animal. Even Peter Singer agrees, although I think he's still an ethical vegetarian.

I mean, you can't help how you grew up, right? And it would be really hard to change your feelings about it, because it's SO ingrained and the way you've grown up thinking about it means that you almost have to stop thinking of yourself as a completely compassionate person, and you have to "downgrade" the attributes of animals. What I really, really object to are people who are all warm-fuzzy about animals and don't want to think about poor little cows and chickens, but then eat them anyway, and eat the ones that come on styrofoam trays at the grocery store with a little pad to soak up the blood so they don't have to really see it as part of an animal.

[wagamama]

I'm a former vegetarian too.

Spughy, both of your posts were really wonderful, and echo the kind of thinking that I have come around to. Thanks for articulating this so well.

[zoebird]

it should be noted that being vegetarian isn't per se saying that others shouldn't be omnivores or that people shouldn't hunt.

at the most basic level, it just means that you do not want to eat meat.

i am a vegetarian. i am not against eating meat, i am not against hunting (in fact, i think it's the best way to obtain meat, followed by small, organic, pasture-raising farms), and i have no problems with anyone wanting to eat meat.

with your family, they don't have to "support" your vegetarianism. but your vegetarianism isn't necessarily a criticism of their choices either.

my husband is omnivorous, my sister and her BF like to fish. it's really n o big deal.

it doesn't have to cause any friction, as long as everyone can respect each other's choices.

[holyhelianthus]

(An aside - I know you meant it as just an example, but the leash thing kinda gets me... I walk my dog off-leash because she is *really* well-trained, but I see people with off-leash dogs who have no control over them and I saw an off-leash dog get hit by a car a few weeks ago Sometimes a leash is a kindness, especially for dogs like huskies who are notoriously not keen on the whole "come" command. Well actually I don't think those dogs should be pets at all, but that's a whole 'nother digression. Anyway. Sorry for the derailment.)

i didn't mean to offend at all! i actually agree with you but there are those people out there who are put off by leashes for whatever reason....

[Attached Mama]

Wow! What an interesting thread. I've been veg for 5 years now and our dd has been veg for all of her 27 mos. We are both incredibly healthy. However, I attribute that to a lifestyle (organics, no vax, no sugar, very little white flour...) not just to being veg.

When I became veg, it was largely due to factory farming. But beyond that, I just love animals and hate the thought of them dying for something I really don't need.

We have however, made a few concessions. After gagging on flax seed oil, (not rancid either) I finally conceeded to taking fish oil supplements. And even tho dd is veg she loves her daily "fishy treats". Lately, we have added fish back into our diets too. (well, it's the first time for dd). I added it back because it's so healthy, is in every native diet pretty much, and it's an easy source of protein. Also, I figure the death is quicker for the salmon (mostly what we eat) than spawning is. I once saw a ton of salmon at the end of their spawn, all black colored and near death and hardly able to swim anymore. I think it must suck to be a salmon!

Now I've been debating other meat... do I really need it? My thyroid is on the low side of normal and I wonder if meat would help since my natural doc had me take some adrenal gland supplements and that really helped. But then my meat eating mom and grandma both have thyroid problems too.... I hope to avoid that somehow...

I used to hate hunting and any kind of animal death, but have come to the place where I can respect small farms who kill their own animals. I have no respect tho for a butcher. That means buying directly from a farm or farmer's market in our state. If it's sold in a store it must be processed in an FDA approved butchers I understand. Ugh! The whole thought of it still makes me sick and I can't bring myself to eat meat. But for the first time in years, I could see that maybe changing someday.

Also, I never really liked meat anyway. I have always hated fat, bones, - all gross to me. I only ate extremely lean meat trimmed of every speck of fat. Just never liked the taste of fat at all. So the only thing I maybe "miss" would be a lean cut of meat roasted (or crock pot) and shredded.

Ah, who knows... It's a really hard choice for me. And then of course my family would rejoice if I ate it again. But I wouldn't even tell my dh's side of the family because I would only ever eat it if it were humanely raised and butchered.

[Kittymom]

Babygrant, this is just an aside, but an important one. I worked on Forest Service plans before, and they specifically manage many areas so that deer overpopulate and there are plenty for hunters. They do this at the expense of many other species and overall biodiversity. So, while it is true that deer starve if not hunted, and that some level hunting could be supported by more natural deer populations, hunting isn't the real answer. Changing how we manage our forests is.

I love meat, but I have always felt bad about the killing. I do believe in the food chain, though, so I feel more bad that eating meat does leave a larger environmental footprint. Eating local sustainably raised animals mitigates this, and eating meat would certainly be fine if our species wasn't overpopulated, it is and so I still feel torn. Nevertheless, I do choose to eat meat currently because I do believe it is healthier for me and for my son.

Eating hunted meat at least avoids the factory farming problems. Also, I am sure you are respectful of the animals you consume and teach your children to be as well. That is very important.

Not that any of this solves your dilemma. I guess, ultimately, I feel like I need to do what I can to achieve health right now so that I can work more effectively on behalf of the Earth. Perhaps, in return for eating meat, you can give time to some environmental or animal treatment cause... something that makes you feel that things come out more even.

[NatrlCatholicMama]

Extremely interesting, and respectful, discussion. The cruelty to animals and abuse of the stewardship of Earth that goes under the name of modern factory farms (both animal and vegetable) is absolutely appalling. I am getting more and more away from supporting it, and of course, it is better for us, better for what we are eating, and better for the environment - and the farmer!

My choice is to eat thoughtfully raised meat *and* produce. After reading The Blood Moon, I have come to the conclusion for myself and my family that death is an integral component of the cycle of life ("Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it cannot bear fruit"), and that we will participate in it respectfully. The apple core composts into rich soil for my garden, the gopher dies so that the lettuce may grow, and the elderly among us pass on as the young are born. From my faith, I know that both animal and vegetables have souls (a life-giving force), and how do I draw the line at animals (which, while potentially intelligent, are not capable of creative reason - has a pig ever self-initiated a self-portrait? My 2 year old has) and not at plants?

As an animal lover growing up, I learned that animals suffer if not fed well. We know that about ourselves as human beings. If cats are not fed meat, especially raw meat, their health declines. If it's okay for a cat, can I think myself so far above the cat that it can tear an animal to shreds for its nourishment, but I can't? My teeth tell me I am made to eat both plants and meat. These are just some of the things that have gone through my mind.

Plants die for the good of the world around them. Animals die for the good of the world around them. I give thanks for each thing that gives its life to benefit me and my family (from food to furniture), and I hope that our lives and deaths may in some way benefit those around us.

Very interesting point about Bambi - most of the teenage (or younger) vegetarians I know are such b/c "I just can't bear the thought of killing those cute little animals!" from their own descriptions to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful discussion. For me, I just couldn't draw the line between animals and vegetables - growing veggies requires death and both have souls, so for me, the task is left to me choosing thoughtfully grown and harvested sources of food.

[barose]

Originally Posted by Sparkle*Mama

I felt like this at one time. I was a vegetarian turned NT just recently. I too felt really bad about an animal dying to feed me. BUT, while being veg my body was just not getting what it needed, no matter what I was doing. I dont do anything half-way, I jump in full gusto and do it 100%. There was just something missing for MY body that vegetarianism wasnt giving me. After feeling like I was getting worse and worse, I decided to give eating meat a try again. I did feel guilty, I did feel sad. But, I noticed that my body started feeling better. I was lacking something I wasnt able to get while eating veg. I had to put my mind at ease and do what I have to to be healthy not only for myself, but for my family too.

In the end you have to do what is right for YOU. Dont let anyone make you feel bad for your choice. If being veg makes you feel better-then do that. If eating NT makes your body healthy, then do that.

Hang in there mama!

I could have written your post; almost word for word.

[Attached Mama]

wondering how many of you are veg because you actually can't stand the taste or smell of meat? I have been trying to add a bit back into my diet and have only managed to try it one time - a bit of chicken curry. The smell of stock cooking is so gross to me. Thought I would like to eat some chicken tacos, but our fresh, pastured chicken smells awfully gamey to me. UGh!

I've decided I prob won't be "strict" veg from now on - eat a bit of chicken as I can stomach it. But I won't be gobbling the stuff down any time soon. I ate it for 28 years and never liked it much or the smell of it. I always thought the turkey cooking on thanksgiving smelled awful, not good.

So I'm sticking with lots of eggs and raw/fermented dairy and weekly fish (which I like).

Curious to know other's experiences in this.... Maybe my ancestors ate mostly eggs and dairy... who knows...

Oh, and I won't try beef again - too far up in the foodchain for one thing, tho I might be inclined to try it if I could get any butchered on the farm. But the farms aren't allowed to sell it unless it goes thru an FDA butcher facility in my state. UGH! - on so many levels...

[spughy]

Originally Posted by Attached Mama

Oh, and I won't try beef again - too far up in the foodchain for one thing, tho I might be inclined to try it if I could get any butchered on the farm. But the farms aren't allowed to sell it unless it goes thru an FDA butcher facility in my state. UGH! - on so many levels...

You may be able to find a farm that is also an FDA-approved butcher facility - that's how some poultry producers (good ones!) operate here. Where I buy my chickens, they have an approved slaughter facility on the farm, which is great.

But beef is no further up the food chain than chickens. They both eat grass and bugs (I'm sure the cows don't mean to, but there has to be the odd bug on the grass they munch). Perhaps you meant that they were more closely related to humans? Cows are mammals like us, whereas chickens are merely slightly evolved dinosaurs. :

[Attached Mama]

Originally Posted by spughy

You may be able to find a farm that is also an FDA-approved butcher facility - that's how some poultry producers (good ones!) operate here. Where I buy my chickens, they have an approved slaughter facility on the farm, which is great.

But beef is no further up the food chain than chickens. They both eat grass and bugs (I'm sure the cows don't mean to, but there has to be the odd bug on the grass they munch). Perhaps you meant that they were more closely related to humans? Cows are mammals like us, whereas chickens are merely slightly evolved dinosaurs. :

Haven't found any farms here that are allowed to have butcher facilities on site. And yeah- I meant more human like. Cow's are so cute and gentle.

[Equuskia]

Originally Posted by Attached Mama

Haven't found any farms here that are allowed to have butcher facilities on site. And yeah- I meant more human like. Cow's are so cute and gentle.

I guess you've never been kicked by one!

If I could hunt my own meat, I would. But there's not a lot of places to go hunting in PR. If I had more land, I would definitely raise my own animals. I would love to have cattle, chickens and goats. There is a property in Canada that is just calling my name. 157 acres of gorgeous pasture land, surrounded by more untouched gorgeous land. *sigh* Fresh eggs and milk in the morning, cheese with fresh baked bread for lunch, a delicious roast or chicken soup for dinner, goat's milk for handmade soaps....my paradise.

And it only costs $3M! Good thing I played the lottery today!

[Attached Mama]

Originally Posted by Equuskia

I guess you've never been kicked by one!

If I could hunt my own meat, I would. But there's not a lot of places to go hunting in PR. If I had more land, I would definitely raise my own animals. I would love to have cattle, chickens and goats. There is a property in Canada that is just calling my name. 157 acres of gorgeous pasture land, surrounded by more untouched gorgeous land. *sigh* Fresh eggs and milk in the morning, cheese with fresh baked bread for lunch, a delicious roast or chicken soup for dinner, goat's milk for handmade soaps....my paradise.

And it only costs $3M! Good thing I played the lottery today!

Someplace recently (in a magazine similiar to Backwoods Home, but wasn't that - was a new one) I saw real estate adds for country places. Some of them were really cheap! Like 5 acres with house and barn for under 200k. That's cheap compared to where I live. Anyway, if that's your dream, go for it! If you don't mind being in the middle of nowhere, you can get land cheap still in some areas.

Nope - never been kicked by a cow, but my mom was when preg with my sister! I have played cow-patty frisbee tho.

I "could" hunt meat here - but could never bring myself to kill an animal. Not even when there was a poor cute squirrel bleeding to death on my porch. I called the animal control people - and then was *so* mad when they said they had to bring it back to the center and couldn't kill it there. Poor thing I just love animals too much and there has to be a certain separation between them and the meat for me. Doesn't help that I don't even really like most meat and that I was veg for 5 years and mostly am now. But not an ignorant separation between them and meat - which is why I won't eat beef that's been thru an FDA slaughterhouse. I'm wondering if the local farmer would let us buy a cow or cowshare (part of the cow) and then since it's our cow, they would just kill it for us as a friend. Hmmm..... I'd feel better about that than it getting shipped off. The farmer said her husband had some chickens done there one time (they usually do all their own) and was horrified. There were dead ones dropped all over the floor etc - just not at all clean! Plus, I just read in Omnivore's Dilemna that even McD's "humane" auditors expect a 5% rate of cows getting skinned when still alive - the stun gun didn't work in other words. UGH!