Another mama's gentle discipline is affecting my kiddo--WWYD - Page 7

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

I think in this case you as the mama just need to be diligent in making sure that if the toy is put down then you are right there to pick it up and keep it safe from other children.

That exhausts me too, just thinking about it. I'm running after my newly potty trained kiddo who is running to the bathroom and who still can't do it all herself. There was no way I could have done it all here. I'm trying--when kids come over, DD and I always walk through what she's comfortable sharing and what she'd rather me put away.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by thismama

I don't see anything wrong with taking a toy from a child after requesting it back, explaining why, and having the child not comply. I am not a jump-around-doing-tricks type of mama, and I think that is just fine.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's wrong to take something from a child to show that taking other people's things is wrong, in the same way that it is wrong to bite a child to show them that biting is wrong, or two spank them to teach them that hitting is wrong. Children learn to treat others the way they are treated. If you treat them with respect, patience, and empathy they in turn will learn to treat people that way. Both children can be treated this way at the same time. The little girl can be treated respectfully without requiring you to pry the toy out of the other child's hands.

Originally Posted by thismama

I don't work that hard, or that constantly. Exhausting parenting is not my scene.

Frankly I'm pretty lax when dealing with my own kid, but when I'm disciplining someone else's child, which I often find myself doing when we're at the park, I go the extra mile to be super gentle and give the other child child every benefit of the doubt. I owe it to that child to do that because they are not my own. It is extra work, but I don't have to do it all the time. I can go home and parent my child anyway I want.

[wonderwahine]

and people wonder why mainstream veiws GD parents as being to permissive.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

But, see that doesn't really solve my bigger problem. 1) I'm not sure I can predict when this stuff is going to happen. 2) It's happened with other things (I talked about a game and a tricycle). 3) He's doing it mainly/only with my kiddo (which is probably heightening her panicked response). 4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand. But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.

I see what you are saying now that you have explained the tricycle issue a little more.

Honestly, I would discuss it with her. Pushing your dd down is not ok, her not even doing anything about it is REALLY not ok.

It seems like she is not allowing for the needs of other children, only her ds. That isn't fair at all.

IMO, the only thing you can do at this point is discuss it with the mom. She might be GD-ing her ds, but her ds is not treating other children with gentleness nor is she doing anything about his behavior. That isn't GD to me, that is permissiveness.

Her lack of action towards her ds' behavior is having a negative impact on your dd, and I don't think I would permit them to play together if she didn't change tactics.

[RiverSky]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"...she allows her child to push and hit other children...that's not gentle discipline. : That is a complete lack of discipline, a lack of teaching her child how to be gentle.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand.

No, riding a tricycle is not a need. That seems ludicrous to me. He wanted the tricycle that he had left in a common area where the rule is that the toys are to be shared, he PUSHED another child off of the tricycle to use it... in no way, shape or form was that a need. The mother NEEDED to have stepped in and found something else that is fun for the child to do. With my two children, if one wants to play with something the other is playing with, I ask how much longer the first would like to play with the toy. Sometimes the child says, "I'm almost done", other times, I need to mediate and figure out a fair time, then use a timer...like, "okay, you can have it for five more minutes, then your brother can have it for 15 minutes, does that sound good?" etc.

But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.

In my opinion, your friend is not practicing gentle discipline at all.

This link seems to have some great suggestions, perhaps you can print them off and give them to your friend.

http://www.parentingweb.com/discipline/pos_disc.htm

[heartmama]

IMO, the only thing you can do at this point is discuss it with the mom. She might be GD-ing her ds, but her ds is not treating other children with gentleness nor is she doing anything about his behavior. That isn't GD to me, that is permissiveness.

I agree. If you value the relationship, find a way to talk to her honestly about this. In fact, you have said this is a very close knit community you share. I don't think avoiding her would even work, would it? It sounds like clear communication is the only option. Tell her what you have said here--that you are feeling frustrated by a double standard of expectations. I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I agree. If you value the relationship, find a way to talk to her honestly about this. In fact, you have said this is a very close knit community you share. I don't think avoiding her would even work, would it? It sounds like clear communication is the only option. Tell her what you have said here--that you are feeling frustrated by a double standard of expectations. I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.

Yup, I agree.

[heartmama]

I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"..

I agree with this too....all gentle and no discipline isn't Gentle Discipline....

Do you have parenting books she could read? Is this her only child? She might honestly be confused as to what GD involves....

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.

Thank you for this. I'm going to go memorize it now.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

But, see that doesn't really solve my bigger problem. 1) I'm not sure I can predict when this stuff is going to happen. 2) It's happened with other things (I talked about a game and a tricycle). 3) He's doing it mainly/only with my kiddo (which is probably heightening her panicked response). 4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand. But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.

Well this issue with the trike would really bother me much more than the original incident you described. Frankly its really almost the opposite of the situation in the original post. These are the rules I operate from when dealing with toddlers. I often make the assumption that this is what the other parents are operating off also.

-No hurting others (this would include pushing children off bikes, as well as hitting, biting, pinching,kicking, etc.)
-No grabbing (which means not taking something out of someones hand or away from someone if they are using it)
-If something is in a common area and is not being used it is fair game to be used by whomever is around
-If someone is using something you would like to use you let them know you would like a turn. It's okay to ask "how many minutes until you're done?" The child should be allowed to use the toy as long as they like until they feel they are done.

When children don't follow these rules it is obviously the job of the adult to solve the problems that arise.

In the tricycle incident I would have told the other mother that my daughter was not through with her turn and that I am not okay with her son knocking my daughter down to get a turn. I would explain that my understanding was that if the trikes are on the terrace they are for everyone to use, and if she doesn't want her son to share it, then it should be put away or kept inside their home. I totally agree that allowing him to keep using it is teaching him to misuse his strength and force to get what he wants and that is not good.

On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants. In both incidents the child was playing with a toy that belonged to the other child and in each case the other child felt they had a claim to the item because it was left unused in a common area. It's not really an issue of right or wrong in either case. It's just an issue to be worked through.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

That exhausts me too, just thinking about it. I'm running after my newly potty trained kiddo who is running to the bathroom and who still can't do it all herself. There was no way I could have done it all here. I'm trying--when kids come over, DD and I always walk through what she's comfortable sharing and what she'd rather me put away.

If your daughter is leaving her very special toy on the floor in a common area someone is going to have to do the work of making sure other children don't play with it. If you don't do it than that just means the other mother's will have to do it. Why should they have to stand over their child repeatedly reminding them not to touch your daughters toy that is lying on the ground when all you have to do is pick it up and take it with you? It's your daughter's toy, and she's the one leaving it around and she's the one that doesn't want to share. If she were older I would say its her responsibility to keep track of it, but since she's so young that responsibility really falls on you.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by Kennedyzoo

I'm also a bit surprised that so many posters felt that the 2.5 boy and his mother were unreasonable in this situation when the actions of the little girl to both abandon a toy and then have a tantrum were really her choices.

Her choices? She's not even 3 years old.

The other mother was plainly being disrespectful to the OP and her child. From what I have read here, it is clear the other mother did not want to have to deal with her own child's hard feelings if he had to give up the toy, so she tried to talk the little girl into giving up the toy for the afternoon. It really feels like she was putting the burden on the other mother and child instead of taking the responsibility. The burden should not be on the little girl who lost her toy to be the one to have to subvert her desires.

What I would have done as the mother of the little boy, and as the mother of a child who can get attached to other children's toys and want to take them home, is after I explain why we have to give it back, and ask her to say good-bye to the toy or in other ways come to terms with having to willingly give up the toy. If she couldn't and she was making it clear that she wouldn't, at that point my job would be to firmly explain that if she didn't willingly give up the toy, it wouldn't mean that she got to keep it. I'd take the toy and return it to the little girl, then I would deal with my own child's sense of loss or painful feelings. Because even if I wish that my child wasn't getting hurt, my job as her mother would be to help her through that.

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants. In both incidents the child was playing with a toy that belonged to the other child and in each case the other child felt they had a claim to the item because it was left unused in a common area. It's not really an issue of right or wrong in either case. It's just an issue to be worked through.

But watching him physically hold it from her and all of us doing the song and dance to get it from him--the equivalent of that with the tricycle is if she had the physical strength to resist him trying to get it back. She doesn't have that physical strength nor the mental resolve to do that. By going through this song and dance with him, I feel like I'm teaching her that she'd have better luck with her needs if she withholds things from kiddos--he certainly has better luck that way.

[wonderwahine]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

It's your daughter's toy, and she's the one leaving it around and she's the one that doesn't want to share. If she were older I would say its her responsibility to keep track of it, but since she's so young that responsibility really falls on you.

oh great, now lets bash this mom over a 2 yr old dropping her lovey.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.

It doesn't sound like she is practicing GD, it sounds like she is practicing avoidance. Her son physically pushes your daughter off his tricycle, I don't really see it as responsible parenting or GD to let that situation go. Sure, she can say he has a need to use it at that moment because that might be an accurate assessment. But if she doesn't then express what the limit is in what is acceptable behavior in getting his tricycle back, that's not GD, it's not respectful to him. Even if she's trying to be non-coercive, she's essentially telling him that coercion only works in one direction, so it's not even consensual parenting.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by wonderwahine

oh great, now lets bash this mom over a 2 yr old dropping her lovey.

I'm not bashing her. And she has repeatedly said it's not her dd's lovey just a very special toy. And the little girl is 3 not 2!

okay sorry my tantrum is over. Really I was just trying to point out that parenting is hard work for every mom and all we can really do is take responsibility for our own actions and to some extent the actions of our children. I think it's pretty clear that in your home if you don't want your child play with something you keep it out of their reach. The same thing goes for other people's kids outside the home. If you don't want this kid playing with your stuff don't leave it where he can get.

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

And the little girl is 3 not 2!

She's 33 months, if that matters at all. I've lost track of whether it does.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

I'm not bashing her. And she has repeatedly said it's not her dd's lovey just a very special toy. And the little girl is 3 not 2!

okay sorry my tantrum is over. Really I was just trying to point out that parenting is hard work for every mom and all we can really do is take responsibility for our own actions and to some extent the actions of our children. I think it's pretty clear that in your home if you don't want your child play with something you keep it out of their reach. The same thing goes for other people's kids outside the home. If you don't want this kid playing with your stuff don't leave it where he can get.

Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Adults need to be consistent.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

But watching him physically hold it from her and all of us doing the song and dance to get it from him--the equivalent of that with the tricycle is if she had the physical strength to resist him trying to get it back. She doesn't have that physical strength nor the mental resolve to do that. By going through this song and dance with him, I feel like I'm teaching her that she'd have better luck with her needs if she withholds things from kiddos--he certainly has better luck that way.

It sounds to me like this is a kid with a very different personality from your kid and you feel like he is dominating your child. I think that would really concern me too. Frankly though I don't think its damaging to her to see you work it out gently with the little boy even when it takes a long time. I think from that she could learn many good things. For example My mom works hard to help me out when I'm upset or Even if it takes a long time we can always find a good solution or My mom treats everyone with kindness and respect These are just some of the positive messages I see in working with the little boy to find a solution (in your words, do a song and dance). I think teaching children to problem solve, which is such an important skill in dealing with others, requires being willing to spend large amounts of time on a problem, and being open to many different solutions not just the quick and easy ones. But I believe the benefits are worth it. And I wouldn't worry as much about what she's learning from him, much more important is what she's learning from you.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by abimommy

Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.



Adults need to be consistent.

I agree completely, I have said in many of my posts that the two mommy's should come up with guidelines together, so they can be consistent.