Another mama's gentle discipline is affecting my kiddo--WWYD - Page 9

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by thismama

No, it is not. It's not the same thing. This is not the child's toy for one thing, so you are not removing his toy to show that taking another toy is wrong. Also, you are the MOTHER. In my world, that means something. This is not a roommate situation here.
It doesn't matter if the toy is his or the little girls, using force to get what you want is wrong. Just like it was wrong when the little boy pushed the little girl so he could ride his trike. It was HIS trike after all, but I think we all agree he was in the wrong there. I would have expected him to wait until the little girl was finished with her turn before he could get on. Even if he threw an hysterical fit.


This is hardly comparable to physically assaulting a child.

my point is that when an adult takes the toy away from a child they are using there size and strength to over power that child. Frankly I would be more comfortable allowing my own child to take the toy back than to take it myself because at least the children are on a more equal footing. I would prefer no one grab from anyone, but I'm particularly concerned about the power dynamic when an adult grabs from a child. Grabbing is simplistic and childish and as an adult I should have other tools to use and should be modeling use of those tools to children.

Not if you teach them that the world revolves around them, and that they will be treated with extreme gentleness as though they are made of glass, but they are not required to treat others the same way. That is how you get a narcissistic and selfish child. I see 'modelling' here used to the exclusion of directly teaching a child that another person's feelings matter in the situation, right now, and it has to be corrected.

With regards to treating children as if they are made of glass, there seems to be a real double standard. I agree that the mother is being to gentle with the little boy when he takes the bike away from the little girl, but in the situation with the other toy everyone seems to feel that the little girl is so fragile that she will break if the toy is not returned immediately. I really don't get it.

Originally Posted by the_lissa

Yep and what is it teaching the girl? That people can take her stuff and walk all over her?

Originally Posted by dawningmama

Yep, especially if they are bigger. And the boy is learning that he can take what he wants and refuse to give it back, even if it does not actually belong to him. That's a pretty dangerous lesson.

If the toy were taken home by the boy, then yes she would be learning that people are taking her stuff and walking all over her. Waiting a few minutes because he is having a turn just teaches that if she doesn't want to share her toys she should watch over them more closely. If the boy were 4 or 5 (an age where children have a much clearer understanding of ownership) I would want be much more firm about not taking something that belongs to someone else, and I would expect the child to immediately return the item when told that it is not his. In this case the child is much younger and their understanding of ownership at this age is much simpler. Basically they are just beginning to understand the concept of "if its in my hands I get to use it and if its in someone else's hand then they get to use it" The lesson the little boy gets when the toy is taken from him is not "oh that wasn't mine to play with, but rather "When a big person wants something they just take it, wow that must be a good way to get what you want" and frankly that's a hard lesson to undo.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I'm hearing many people say they would "just (gently) take it back." And dismissing other GD tactics (like playfullness, prevention, waiting, etc.) which are being suggested here.

I don't think anyone is supporting the tactics the actual mother used (suggesting that the hysterical child have empathy for her son, asking to keep the toy for the afternoon, etc).

But I see nothing wrong with offering a trade or trying any number of GD tactics suggested here. Lots of great ideas!! Thanks!

Thank you for saying this.

[monkey's mom]

Thank YOU! I'm enjoying your posts tremendously!

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

The lesson the little boy gets when the toy is taken from him is not "oh that wasn't mine to play with, but rather "When a big person wants something they just take it, wow that must be a good way to get what you want" and frankly that's a hard lesson to undo.[/B]

I completely disagree. Letting the boy have the toy while the girl is in *hysterics* teaches him that you can get what you want by force and disregard people's feelings.

I agree with your post prothyraia.

[bigeyes]

So where is the toy today? :

[thismama]

It doesn't matter if the toy is his or the little girls, using force to get what you want is wrong.

I disagree with this as an across the board sentiment. I think it is fine for a mama to remove a toy from an uncooperative child, physically. YMMV, but it is in the end a difference of opinion.

my point is that when an adult takes the toy away from a child they are using there size and strength to over power that child. Frankly I would be more comfortable allowing my own child to take the toy back than to take it myself because at least the children are on a more equal footing.

I don't think it is a bad thing for mothers to use 'power over' with our children. Respectfully, with explanation, yes. But power over is reality in a parent/child relationship and I think failing to acknowledge it, or being afraid to ever use it, is not the answer here. I see a lot of ineffectual GD parenting, and that is where I am coming from, and a lot of advocacy for mothers to work harder harder harder to avoid ever having a confrontation with our children or a less than dreamy-delightful moment. That is too much effort for me, and I think it is not better, but actively worse, for our children to attempt to construct that kind of situation.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by prothyraia

I don't think that's accurate.
I think the difference is, ultimately, many people don't feel like the most important thing at that moment is that the boy understands. If, after trying to explain it, he doesn't quite get it right away, that doesn't mean that resolving the situation needs to wait until he does. More explaination can be given AFTER the toy is returned. But why isn't the boys feelings as important as the girls feelings? This is what I don't understand. There are a number of possible solutions to getting the toy back (respecting the needs of the little girl) that are also gentle and don't involve physically removing the toy from the boys hands (respectful to him). These suggestions seem to be continually poo-pooed because they take too long or take take too much effort on part of the mom. So what I keep hearing is that the girls feelings are very important, the mom's desire not to work too hard at problem solving is pretty important, but the boys desire to explore this toy that he legitimately found on the ground not being used by anybody is really pretty inconsequential.

Especially since, given the other examples of his interactions with her daughter (and his mother's responses), it doesn't seem likely that he would understand in any reasonably timely manner. How exactly is he supposed to "get" that he needs to give the toy back if he's taken things from her without being stopped before, and if his mother suggests that he get to keep it? Why on earth WOULD he voluntarily give it up when his mom is advocating that he get to keep it all day????

I think its hard to say how long it might have taken him. The only solutions that were tried was simply asking him to give it back and the other mother's insane request to the little girl that he be allowed to keep it for the afternoon. Hardly a comprehensive list of possible solutions.

[monkey's mom]

Yeah, how did it resolve?? Did he eventually hand the toy back or what?

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

I completely disagree. Letting the boy have the toy while the girl is in *hysterics* teaches him that you can get what you want by force and disregard people's feelings.

picking up a toy off the ground is not "getting what you want by force" There is no force involved. However I could see where immediately handing the toy back to little girl just because she became hysterical might be teaching her to get what she wants by throwing a screaming hissy fit.

[the_lissa]

I wasn't talking about physical force, and it is still ignoring other people's emotions.

It is my understanding that the girl was upset not throwing a hissy fit.

All of it is immaterial because it was her freaking toy.

If someone takes my possession, I might throw a hissy fit or I might forcibly take it from whoever wants their turn.

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I would have said to the other mother "it isn't acceptable to me that your son keep the toy after the playday is over. Why don't you help him find a way to give it back while I help my child calm down in another room. Perhaps you can find something to trade for instead. There are some small trinkets he could have in the box beside the backdoor. I'm sure we can find a way to help the kids resolve this problem". Perhaps this mother needs help with clear boundaries as well? It might just be that she needs to hear what your limits are so that she can help her son process them.

I really like these suggestions.

My first instinct would be to take the toy away too but I think this approach is even better.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by thismama

I disagree with this as an across the board sentiment. I think it is fine for a mama to remove a toy from an uncooperative child, physically. YMMV, but it is in the end a difference of opinion.



I don't think it is a bad thing for mothers to use 'power over' with our children. Respectfully, with explanation, yes. But power over is reality in a parent/child relationship and I think failing to acknowledge it, or being afraid to ever use it, is not the answer here. I see a lot of ineffectual GD parenting, and that is where I am coming from, and a lot of advocacy for mothers to work harder harder harder to avoid ever having a confrontation with our children or a less than dreamy-delightful moment. That is too much effort for me, and I think it is not better, but actively worse, for our children to attempt to construct that kind of situation.

I really do see where you're coming from. I agree there are a lot of GD parents who leave out the D part of the equation. The little boys mother seems to be one of those types of mom's. For me personally I would rather not physically remove something from my child's hands unless it was absolutely neccessary, but as a parent everyone can draw the line where they feel comfortable. Especially with regards to their own child. I do believe however that when it comes to disciplining other peoples children it is important to do so with as much gentleness as one can possible muster up. In this case with the toy obviously the other mother wasn't going to step up to the plate so the disciplining was left entirely up to the OP, which is not really fair, but what can you do. I would hope no one would ever grab something out of my child's hand (unless safety was an issue) while they were disciplining my child. I probably don't have to worry though because I am usually pretty proactive when with my little one at the park.

I did want to say that a similar situation did occur at the park not too long ago where another child picked up our sand toy and didn't want to give it back even though it was time for us to leave. I explained to him that it was ours and we needed to go home, but he was just standing there holding the toy and staring at me. The child was there with a daycare and the teacher was busy with other kids and wasn't really available to help. The child refused to give it back and I really didn't want to take it from him. Finally i asked him if he would like to play with it for 1 more minute or 2 more minutes and he said 2 minutes. I said I would let him know when 2 minutes was up and before 2 minutes were even up he handed me the toy. I do suppose if he had continued to refuse to return the toy I either would have had to enlist the help of the teacher or take it from him, but after years of teaching young children I am usually pretty confident that I can solve a problem with a child without force.

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

It is my understanding that the girl was upset not throwing a hissy fit.

Yes, Junipermuse, I'm so offended by you continuing to characterize it this way. I haven't said anything about it because I didn't think it was conducive to anything here. She was extremely emotionally distraught, hysterical at the fact that a little boy that she is wary of would not return an item that is precious to her. As well as the fact that it was not getting resolved and was going on and on.

I've been very respectful with how I characterize the other child's behavior, and I would appreciate it if you did the same with mine.

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

Yeah, how did it resolve?? Did he eventually hand the toy back or what?

She finally gently removed it from him--after about 10 minutes of him sitting quietly holding it, watching everyone do a song and dance to get it from him and watching my DD in obvious pain. It is so ridiculous to me how easy it was for his mama to gently remove it from him, and yet what lengths she was going to to stick with some sort of GD/consensual living/non-violent communication ideology. It's shaken my belief in all this.

[choli]

Originally Posted by thismama

I don't see anything wrong with taking a toy from a child after requesting it back, explaining why, and having the child not comply. I am not a jump-around-doing-tricks type of mama, and I think that is just fine.

I agree. It sounds like a very big deal was made out of a very small deal here.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

what lengths she was going to to stick with some sort of GD/consensual living/non-violent communication ideology.

As others have said, it doesn't sound *to me* like she was actually using any of those ideologies, rather she was trying to find a sorta-nice-way to get her kid what he wanted. And that that's what she generally does. Very different.

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by rzberrymom

She finally gently removed it from him--after about 10 minutes of him sitting quietly holding it, watching everyone do a song and dance to get it from him and watching my DD in obvious pain. It is so ridiculous to me how easy it was for his mama to gently remove it from him, and yet what lengths she was going to to stick with some sort of GD/consensual living/non-violent communication ideology. It's shaken my believe in all this.

I'm sorry you and your daughter had to deal with that, but it is definitely not gd.

[aaronsmom]

My sister is exactly like this other mother....or rather, much worse in her parenting strategies. Her son (my nephew) is 3 and my son is 20 months old and half his size. My nephew is always bullying my son physically and she literally does absolutely nothing and I'm not exaggerating. This leaves me to deal with the situation (and I do because usually it involves my child being physical hurt) and I've had several conversations with her about this. :
Anyway, at least this mama was trying to do something but I don't think she went about it right. She especially shouldn't have suggested that her DS take the toy home with him since you had already explained that it was special to your DD.
The only advice I can give you is to talk to the other mama about it to make sure you guys are on the same page the next time a conflict arises between the little ones. But be careful because most people get really defensive when their parenting is questioned, I know I do. HTH!

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

I wasn't talking about physical force, and it is still ignoring other people's emotions.

It is my understanding that the girl was upset not throwing a hissy fit.

All of it is immaterial because it was her freaking toy.

If someone takes my possession, I might throw a hissy fit or I might forcibly take it from whoever wants their turn.

So since she should be allowed to take back her toy by any means neccessary, I assume you don't have any problem with the little boy taking back his trike by pushing her off of it because after all it was HIS trike

If you're referring to force as any means of control then hysterically screaming and crying (which I personally feel is a hissy fit, but if you don't then it was a bad word choice on my part) is using force to get her way in the same way that withholding the toy is a means of force for the little boy. I personally feel physical force is more inappropriate then this emotional force.

Talking the boy through the situation does not require the girl's feelings to be ignored. Her feelings can be validated through words "I hear you are really upset, you don't want him to play with your toy" and through the action of getting the toy back. Just because the result isn't immediate doesn't mean that the little girls needs aren't being met. Also keep in mind that the little boy isn't actually getting to play with the toy while the discussion is going on. It's not like he's off in some corner playing happily while the little girl is forced to cry in hysterics and watch. So even though he's holding the toy he isn't really getting his way either.

[the_lissa]

That is beyond ridiculous. I never said by any means necessary and I would try other things first.

There is a huge difference between gently removing a toy from a child's hand and pushing a child off a trike. And yes if the child would not get off the trike, she would have to be gently removed.

And I never said taking the toy would be the first thing I do. I would try lots of other things first.

I do suppose if he had continued to refuse to return the toy I either would have had to enlist the help of the teacher or take it from him,

And you said you would do the same thing.


I don't think this was emotional force. I think she was genuinely upset. She has every right to express her feelings.

The OP has said it was not a hissy fit, and you are being rude.