If you never set a schedule for your kids...

[Aletheia]

Hi mamas. I actually only have a 15 month old, but I am seeking advice from some seasoned mamas who are more laid back and less Type A than I.

As DS gets older and more strong willed, I am facing a debate about SLEEP and FOOD. Do I set some guidelines and coerce him into following them, or do I trust that he will do what is best for him?

I just read The Continuum Concept, so I think that is where this question is coming from. After reading that book, it is so easy to believe that kids will "naturally" see to it that their biological needs are met. They'll eat enough of things that are good for them and they will get enough sleep to stay healthy.

Is there a mama out there who has really taken this stance and seen it work with her kids?

And just to help ground my question... the big problem we are having right now is a refusal to go to bed easily. The routine hasn't changed, the hour hasn't changed, and based on my knowledge of how he has played and napped on a given day, he should be tired when I put him down! But no-- last night DH and I spent TWO HOURS putting him down. One hour into it I considered letting him just get out of bed and play for a while, but:
a) I don't want him to learn that he can hold out against our attempts until we give in and
b) The couple of times we've done this he'll just go and go and go... it's like he gets stuck in the "on" position.

Anyway. Any advice you mamas have is most welcome!

[Peony]

I have never had a schedule for either one of my DD's. I do feel it all works out in the end. They are almost 5y and 13m. When the time changed DD1 started going to bed before 8pm, which is very early for her, she has always gone to sleep when she is tired, I have never actively put her to bed. When she nursed to sleep, then she'd just fall asleep when she was tired enough, and then when she stopped doing that, she was old enough to tell me when she was ready for bed. Other nights she is up until 10pm, I'm not tired at the same time every night so why should she be? DD2 is the same way, she naps when ever, she usually wakes up in the am at the same time every day, but could go to bed anywhere from 6-10pm.

Eating is the same way, I offer food frequently during the day, they are either hungry or not. I look at what kind of food they eat in a week, not a day. Like tonight, DH is out of town and our dinner will probably be cookies, : but tomorrow or the next day I know DD1 will eat an entire salad for lunch. She doesn't get free run of food, I do things in moderation, she knows that candy, french fries, etc... is not healthy for her and that certain types of food fuel her body. So she understand when I say that candy for breakfast isn't going to make her feel good later. Dh eats very poorly, like cereal candy for breakfast, DD1 rarely eats it, instead she'll ask for her different cereal, or toast, saying that she needs good food so she can play.

One thing that I feel is important as a parent is to pick your battles or else you end up fighting over every little thing. I don't have set rules in my house, except for a few, things like being gentle and kind to others, other then that we go with the flow. DD1 and I don't spend all day arguing, cause older children will argue that the moon is green until they are blue in the face. : So when I say something, she usually listens because she isn't hearing me say all day "do this, don't do that..."

Some things to think about, what type of child do you want to raise? A child that will bow down to authority because "that's the way it is" or a child who is used to being treated like their opinion matters therefore they question things.

I want my children to feel like their opinion matters, it does, they are their own person, I am just helping guide them through this early phase of their life. That doesn't mean that my children run wild either, they do have manners (well the older one, not the toddler ). I feel that I have a responsibility to raise caring children, for them to understand how their actions effect others, and to think outside of the box. That skill can be hard to do if you are always told what to do, with no reason why.

I hope some of this makes sense, my thoughts are jumbled tonight. : It can be hard to let things go, to not have a schedule, to go with the flow, but for my family going with the flow has been so wonderful. I'm not tied to the house for a bedtime, naptime, etc... I do know families that have to be home by 6pm every night, home by 12pm for the afternoon for naptime. I do whatever we want everyday, we stay very busy, and have a lot of fun doing it.

[Jessy1019]

The only "schedule" we have is the one my kids set themselves . . . and it changes at their whims.

My daughter is five. She goes to bed anywhere between 7:30 and 10pm, but usually around 8:30ish. When I say that she goes to bed, however, I generally mean that she falls asleep on the couch and we carry her to bed. This is what she's done since age 2.5 or so, when she stopped nursing to sleep. Every once in a while, we will put her to bed in her room because we are ready for bed ourselves . . . but she really doesn't like that, and I don't like her to go to sleep on a bad note so we don't do that unless we're desperate. She gets enough sleep and functions well throughout the day.

As far as food goes, I do feel like by keeping the house stocked with mostly healthy foods and letting my kids pick when and what they eat (for the most part . . . I do make dinner every night), they are develping healthy eating habits.

I am generally of the impression that schedules are something parents use to make their own lives easier/because they function better with a routine. And I'm not saying that as a criticism, really -- I feel the same way about us not having a schedule -- I hate schedules and routine, and I really wanted to instill a sense of flexibility and spontaneity into my kids. I can certainly see how someone who values schedule and routine would want the opposite!

[Jessy1019]

Originally Posted by Peony

Some things to think about, what type of child do you want to raise? A child that will bow down to authority because "that's the way it is" or a child who is used to being treated like their opinion matters therefore they question things.

I'm not tied to the house for a bedtime, naptime, etc... I do know families that have to be home by 6pm every night, home by 12pm for the afternoon for naptime. I do whatever we want everyday, we stay very busy, and have a lot of fun doing it.

Yes, these are the two key things for me with regard to not having a routine!!!

I know people who are tied to their houses for specific nap and bed times, and I don't envy them one little bit.

[Aletheia]

Mamas, thanks SO much. Somehow, it was logical to posit the existence of families like yours, but still hard to believe mamas would actually write back. But you're doing it, this schedule free life, and it works! Hooray!

Do you still have routines? Like nighttime routines?

This makes DH sound bad, but I think he would majorly object to not having a set bedtime for DS. He so values the quiet hours we spend together relaxing on the couch after DS is in bed. But I, on the other hand, think we as a family would benefit from more time *as* a family. Mostly it's just my turn to watch the baby or his...

[Linda on the move]

My kids are older (9 and 11) and we are basically schedule free, though we do have a loose routine that helps me ensure that everyone's needs are met. We have regular meals, but everyone eats or doesn't, and we have bedtime routine. We generally go to bed about the same time every night, but it isn't engraved in stone.

For me, having a routine means that I have a time set aside to do things like read to my kids every night. The routine helps me do things as a parent that I want to do and that my kids enjoy. The routine is not about making my kids do something. It is the attitude behind the routine that makes the difference.

For me, finding ways to meet everyone's needs -- even the daddy's -- is the goal. Spending time together as a couple is important. The challenge is to find ways to do that while allowing your child to find their balance. I think the dichotomy of babies needs VS spouses needs is a tricky one for many moms of young children.

[Lingmom]

Originally Posted by Peony

Some things to think about, what type of child do you want to raise? A child that will bow down to authority because "that's the way it is" or a child who is used to being treated like their opinion matters therefore they question things.

I'm a little surprised... Do you really believe that parents who set bedtimes for their children or eat at certain times are raising children who will bow down to authority and that they are not children who are used to being treated like their opinion matters?

That seems like an enormous leap to me. I'm certain that bowing down to authority happens with and without set mealtimes. I'm equally certain that children who have a bedtime are not necessarily being treated like their opinions don't matter.

I would say that parents who set bedtimes for their children are parents who have a knowledge of the world that their children don't have (the world in which there are things to do early the next morning). And I would say that parents who set mealtimes at a certain time are doing it for reasons of liking to eat meals with their children or being available to cook at a certain time.

[Strong Mama]

In my house I respect my childrens opinions but we work Together to decide bedtime, parents IMO need to guide their children to make the best decision for the family. So my older son can stay up late on weekends, as late as he wants, but on weeknights I asked him what time he wanted to go to bed and he said 11. I said well, you get up at 6am do you really think that is enough sleep for you before a busy day, and then he thought about it and on his decided that 9 30 would be better for him on school nights. With ds(3) he has always needed a LOT of sleep so I would read his sleepytime cues and go from there.

[Jessy1019]

Originally Posted by Aletheia

Do you still have routines? Like nighttime routines?

Not really. We try to make sure the kids brush their teeth every night, but that's about it!

[rmzbm]

I have 4 kids (and another on the way) ages 9 yrs. -20 mos. and I have never ever had ANY schedule or routine. Never told them when to or what to eat, never told them when to sleep. It has worked beautifully for them. I will do the same with all future children as well.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by Lingmom

I'm a little surprised... Do you really believe that parents who set bedtimes for their children or eat at certain times are raising children who will bow down to authority and that they are not children who are used to being treated like their opinion matters?

Yes, I'm surprised too. What a strange leap to make. I'm also surprised by the "tied to the house" thing. Mindful parents typically do what works best for their kids and the family as a whole -- I'm sure parents whose kids function best with regular naps and bedtimes don't feel exasperated about being "tied to the house"; they probably feel at peace knowing that they're meeting their children's needs. It's no more fair to say they're "tied to the house and not to be envied" than it would be for more schedule-oriented parents to say something like, "When I see a screaming, over-tired toddler being dragged from place to place by a mom who is anti-schedule, I don't envy her one bit!" Neither is an accurate or fair characterization.

[amygabrielle]

Well, we have a set bedtime.: And DH usually cooks dinner around the same time every night. I will say that DD's set bedtime is not set in stone. There are some nights, like tonight, where DH got home late from work and so everything just got pushed back. DD has preschool in the morning and needs to get to bed early in order to wake up on time naturally. Otherwise, she'll stay up until midnight and then be a grouch the whole next day. I think set bedtimes work and are necessary for some families and not so important for others. It all depends on what needs to happen in the morning.

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by Lingmom

I would say that parents who set bedtimes for their children are parents who have a knowledge of the world that their children don't have (the world in which there are things to do early the next morning). And I would say that parents who set mealtimes at a certain time are doing it for reasons of liking to eat meals with their children or being available to cook at a certain time.

I will add to that that the basis for my authority over the kids on sleep and other matters includes the fact that we are a family that has to live/work together. We are a team and we have a coach -- me -- to help organize the family towards our end goal of being a happy place to grow and live in. Hey, I do not freely choose when I want to go to bed. I often go to bed because the kids are ready and want me in bed, and also I know that one of them will likely wake up at 7am if not 5am no matter when I put them to bed so I need to get some sleep. Certainly we do need to coordinate sleep times as a family when they are small. I'm supposed to ask a 4 year old to coordinate sleep schedules? That's beyond her so I will do it. When they are older, if they have no where they need to be that they are not making because they are sleeping too late, we can talk about self-set bedtimes.

[mamasaurus]

Originally Posted by Aletheia

As DS gets older and more strong willed, I am facing a debate about SLEEP and FOOD. Do I set some guidelines and coerce him into following them, or do I trust that he will do what is best for him?

Well, "setting guidelines" means one thing, and "coercing" means another, KWIM?

I have a very strong-willed 5yo and a very easy-going 2.75yo.

When my 5yo was newborn to 2yo, we had no routine, nothing. It really was a disaster. She really needed to know what was happening throughout the day to find her "place" in the day. The idea being that kids that age can't tell time, and so having some sort of routine and rhythm to the day can be a good thing.

After DD2 was born, I set up a routine to our day - not so strict by the clock, but a general routine, where certain things happened in a general order. And that included bedtime. I am a firm believer that children need to sleep a lot - and preferably more in the early evening. I'm not sure how I got this way! I think experience with my girls, reading various books on children and sleeping, reading personal experiences from other Moms here on MDC, talking to friends about their own children, etc.

I think it's just some trial and error - I have found over the years that my girls do MUCH better if they get about 11-12 hours a sleep at night. They are usually asleep by 7-8pm. It depends on whether or not they napped during the day, how physical their play was, if they are sick, etc.

As far as my strong-willed DD - I have found that sticking to the routine is a good thing - but having choices within the routine helps her. She doesn't want to be told what to do - who does? But, I just know her - and I know that she does much better the next day, has less chance of meltdowns at night, sleeps more soundly, if she is in bed, asleep no later than 8pm.

Again - it's trial and error - you get to know your children - their cues, their meltdown triggers, all of it.

Just remember - sleep is important - enough sleep is important - and making sure they have plenty of good physical activity during the day helps - not for EVERY child, but it helps, KWIM?

About food - well, I offer healthy choices.

My 5yo eats anything - she is a great eater.

My 2.75yo has a very limited diet - let's see - bananas, corn on the cob, shrimp scampi, bacon, sausage, occasionally a carrot, bread and butter, and she would eat junk food all day long if we let her!

We also feel that making sweet off-limits just makes it worse. Don't make them a forbidden fruit. We have "Sweet Treat Time" every afternoon around 3pm. Everyone gets to choose a *very small* sweet treat - a cookie, a little ice cream, a popsicle, a piece of candy, etc. It's a fun time, and I like it, too! :

[mamasaurus]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

I will add to that that the basis for my authority over the kids on sleep and other matters includes the fact that we are a family that has to live/work together. We are a team and we have a coach -- me -- to help organize the family towards our end goal of being a happy place to grow and live in. Hey, I do not freely choose when I want to go to bed. I often go to bed because the kids are ready and want me in bed, and also I know that one of them will likely wake up at 7am if not 5am no matter when I put them to bed so I need to get some sleep. Certainly we do need to coordinate sleep times as a family when they are small. I'm supposed to ask a 4 year old to coordinate sleep schedules? That's beyond her so I will do it. When they are older, if they have no where they need to be that they are not making because they are sleeping too late, we can talk about self-set bedtimes.

:

[LynnS6]

I'm not sure how a schedule = bowing down to authority. For us, a schedule of sorts makes life flow more easily.

It may also come down to temperament - yours and your children's. I need a schedule to make me feel comfortable. I hate not knowing what's happening. I actually cannot travel with my MIL because of this. My husband and ILs love to travel spontaneously. I fret until I know the plan. I admire her flexibility, but it doesn't fit my needs.

Our son is naturally regular in almost all of his habits. He wakes at about the same time, he's hungry at about the same time, he has bowel movements at about the same time every day. He likes to know the plan for the day. Interestingly, he's also a bit more flexible with changes in plans.

Dd is naturally irregular in sleep, hunger, bowel movements etc. She's also very difficult to transition without a lot of warning, or if she gets too hungry or tired. Thus, for her, a "schedule" helps her regulate her day and keeps her mood more predictable.

We serve breakfast when the kids get up. They eat lunch (when they're home) between 11:30 and 12:30 -- usually they ask for it. We try to eat dinner between 5:45 and 6:15 pm. Life just flows more smoothly when we do this. We have fewer meltdowns because of hunger. They're free to ask for snacks. They are asked to come to the table at dinner, but they don't have to eat. They can just socialize if they want.

"Bedtime" is 8:30-9:00. But if they're not tired, they can get up after 20 minutes and play for a bit and try again.

So, the schedule isn't a fixed, immovable object - it's a way to frame our lives.

[4evermom]

My ds was never a very regular kid and we never had much of a schedule. BUT, he needed help identifying that he needed sleep or food. He's the kind of kid who would get all wound up, hyper, and crazy when too tired. But there was no making him go to sleep, either. I learned to seize the right moment to initiate bedtime based on his subtle cues. Bedtime, itself, was always rather easy (IF I didn't miss my window of opportunity and did it before crazy mode set in) because I would get ready for bed and he would want to join me. There was no putting him down to sleep when he was a baby or toddler. His sleep tends towards disturbances and he woke up easily without physical contact.

If I thought he was hungry, but feared he would reject the notion of eating (not a food oriented kid), I would fix myself a snack of a food he liked. I'd share it with him or get his own if he asked.

If I noticed he tended to sleep at a certain time, I would try to be someplace that was conducive to sleeping (home or on a long enough car ride). I totally understand people who are more structured with naps and HAVE to be home at certain times. It doesn't mean they are controlling or coercive. Ds was a completely miserable different child when he was tired versus when he was well rested. Kids have different needs and some kids are more flexible than others.

[Jessy1019]

Originally Posted by limabean

I'm sure parents whose kids function best with regular naps and bedtimes don't feel exasperated about being "tied to the house"; they probably feel at peace knowing that they're meeting their children's needs.

Just because you know you're doing what works for your child doesn't mean it's not inconvenient and frustrating. Feeling good about your choices, overall, doesn't mean that you are any less tied to the house. If you have to be there so that your children can nap or go to bed at a certain time, then you have to be there, right? Thus being tied down.

It's no more fair to say they're "tied to the house and not to be envied" than it would be for more schedule-oriented parents to say something like, "When I see a screaming, over-tired toddler being dragged from place to place by a mom who is anti-schedule, I don't envy her one bit!" Neither is an accurate or fair characterization.

When I see that, I typically think it's a scheduling mom who was forced to break her schedule for the day, thus resulting in the meltdown. The kids I know who behave like that have pretty strict schedules and routines at home . . . whereas my kids are always happy to be going and doing, no matter what the hour.

[mamazee]

I never scheduled anything with my daughter, as much out of my own personal inability to organize anything as for any other reason. But she did figure out what she needed. She gave up naps early, and did fine without them. She was a grazer more than a meal eater for a long time but seems to be having more meals lately and not grazing much. She always tells me she's tired and wants to go to bed sometime between 8 and 8:30, and I've never given her a "bedtime". It's worked out.

[Lingmom]

Come on though... Unless you have gastric tubes, no parent is truly scheduling eating. We schedule a time when food is available. And unless you're giving your child sleeping pills, no parent is actually scheduling sleeping. We're scheduling a time when sleeping is appropriate. So we're not talking about coercion or authoritarianism. We're talking about setting up routines.

I am certain that across cultures and throughout history, parents have been encouraging schedules for their children. It is not some context of modern convenience that parents expect their children to go to sleep at night... night-time is traditionally a human sleeping time. And eating communally (which entails eating at a specific agreed-upon time) has surely been around for as long as humans have been walking the planet.

Don't get me wrong. If you and your family are able to lead unscheduled lives and it works for you, then it's great. But I wouldn't go making assumptions that what you're doing is any more "natural" than the scheduling of meals and bedtimes. And ultimately, unless you plan on your child avoiding school or camp or sleepovers or college or getting a job or going to a hospital or eating at a restaurant that closes at a certain hour, he or she will eventually encounter the same schedules that the rest of us live with.