If you never set a schedule for your kids... - Page 2

[mamasaurus]

Originally Posted by Aletheia

And just to help ground my question... the big problem we are having right now is a refusal to go to bed easily. The routine hasn't changed, the hour hasn't changed, and based on my knowledge of how he has played and napped on a given day, he should be tired when I put him down! But no-- last night DH and I spent TWO HOURS putting him down. One hour into it I considered letting him just get out of bed and play for a while, but:
a) I don't want him to learn that he can hold out against our attempts until we give in and
b) The couple of times we've done this he'll just go and go and go... it's like he gets stuck in the "on" position.

And regarding your specific issue at the moment...

Sometimes kids change their sleeping habits because they are growing, too. Other things are going on in their bodies that we don't necessarily "see", KWIM?

I've seen my daughter go down like clockwork for a 1pm naptime, and then all of the sudden, no more! Would just lie there staring at the ceiling, or worse, digging in her diaper, spreading BM all over the crib! : I had people say to me, "You HAVE to keep her on the same schedule! She cannot be in charge!" Bleh.

I took the advice of other, more rational mothers who said to move her naptime an hour later. She just needed another hour of good physical activity and that did the trick - she would go down at 2pm and sleep for 2 hours. It's just a matter of some trial and error to figure out what your DS is transitioning to next in his world of sleep.

I have a few questions in order to figure out what might be going on here - what time does your DS normally wake up, take a nap, and go to bed? What type of physical activity does he have during the day?

Sleep issues for kids is a pet subject of mine... :

[limabean]

Originally Posted by Jessy1019

When I see that, I typically think it's a scheduling mom who was forced to break her schedule for the day, thus resulting in the meltdown. The kids I know who behave like that have pretty strict schedules and routines at home . . . whereas my kids are always happy to be going and doing, no matter what the hour.

I think you're completely missing my point. I was saying that it's ridiculous for parents who schedule OR those who don't to look at a kid melting down and immediately make a negative judgement about the scheduling habits of their parents -- all kids have bad days sometimes. But it appears that you've made up your mind that "schedulers" are rigid parents whose kids cannot cope with change, so I guess our conversation has nowhere to go.

[wasabi]

Originally Posted by Jessy1019

. whereas my kids are always happy to be going and doing, no matter what the hour.

And you assume this has to do with the fact that you have no schedule or routine at all rather than assuming it has to do with your kids' personalities? Very interesting.

I'm in between like some here. My kids go to school so there is some routine. I do wonder if those who have none at all homeschool? Because DD has to be up at 7:30 at the absolute latest and the girl needs sleep. Seriously if she doesn't get close to 12 hours she is a bear. So that puts bedtime right around 7:30. Now I'm not a huge stick in the mud about it. Sometimes it's earlier when both girls are clearly worn out and sometimes it's later. I'm not going to be out and think OMG it's almost 6:45 I have to get home so I can start bedtime routine at 7 so they can be asleep at 7:30 but that's the general timeframe we're aiming for. And we have such a routine becuase DD insists on it. We get into bed. We read a story. We say our prayers (which are all very ritualized and must include specific components). We say wham-wham no monsters. I rub her back and she falls asleep. Usually in about five minutes no less. On the weekends she can stay up later because she can wake up later. On special occasions she can stay up later. But day to day she has to get up at 7:30 so I'm not going to let her stay up until 11 because she can't function on that little sleep.

Now DD #2 is a lot more go with the flow. She goes to nursery school three times a week but she doesn't have to be up until really about 8:30 at the latest so if she wanted to be up later (when DD#1 was visiting Daddy) I let her. She can get by just fine on less sleep. She might go to bed at 9:30 and still wake up chipper as could be at 7. She's also way less into routine. For her we get in bed. I nurse her and she goes to sleep.

Now bedtime is really the only thing that is scheduled. Mealtimes are just at sort of general times. There's no time I'm aiming for. If the kids say we're hungry and it's near a meal time then we have a meal, otherwise it's a snack. So I am pretty flexible. But I do have a general bedtime for DD #1's sake. I think this issue just as with most things is about knowing your child and following their lead. You may get the most easy going kid in the world and they may not care one bit about a routine or a schedule. And you may get a kid that is constantly asking for routines and schedules. I mean seriously DD can run through our routine for you with no problem and if I forget an element she'll let me know.

Oh and I will add that like a pp I go to bed when I don't want to becuase they're ready etc all the time. It's a team and we have to do things that work for all of us. Because getting a whining cranky 5 year old dressed and ready for school after 8 hours of sleep when she needs 12 doesn't work for me.

[UUMom]

We've always had a partciular flow...if not set- in -stone routines. My children each have somewhat different inner clocks, so we worked with that. My early- to -bed and early riser was like that from the beginning, my night owl has always been a night owl. My two middle children always napped around the same time each day, and you can bet your life that I worked with that. lol With 3 tiny kids, the two hour nap at around the same time each day was one reason I kept my sanity. I didn't determine those two hours, but once I saw a pattern, I jumped on it!

If we had no loose 'routine' at all we'd be running around like chickens with our heads cut off. When my children were smaller, they liked knowing what would be going on on a particular day..it made them feel safe to know that life could at times be predicatable, if not carved. It made for more mellow days. As older children, they do various activities of their choosing, and if we don't have some sort of basic schdeule, we end up racing around. My kids are not ones to thrive on that kind of tension, so we give a bit of form to our days so we can pace ourselves.

I don't set bedtimes, but i do/did lower lights, talk more softly, change the pacing etc. I think it's hard for kids to go from runningrunningjumpingplaying to "Go to bed'. Transitions times can be very helpful for some kids, in all manner of ways.

[Jessy1019]

Originally Posted by wasabi

And you assume this has to do with the fact that you have no schedule or routine at all rather than assuming it has to do with your kids' personalities? Very interesting.

Actually, I assume it's genetics for the most part. I hate schedules, so it follows that my kids would as well. DP is also not a schedule/planning sort either. We all just go with the flow.

I do think, though, that parents who enforce rigid schedules to the point that they will skip a party or other fun event because their child has to be home to nap right on time are doing their kids no favors. While some people may naturally prefer schedules, encouraging flexibilty is VERY important, IMO.

[BMG580]

We weren't scheduled or even really routine based for a long time, probably the first year or so. My daughter has always been very high needs, intense and energetic and never needed the amount of sleep that is recommended by the "experts". Before she could clearly communicate with me and I was busy with trial and error I demand nursed and let her sleep when she fell asleep. All attempts to get her into a stable routine were completely frustrating for both of us. This does not mean that she didn't take a couple naps per day, etc. - she did, but because children are not robots these eating and sleeping patterns shifted as she grew and changed.

Around 14 months she began regulating herself a bit more. And I discovered that I was also happier when we had a bit more of a plan to our day. We have a very clear routine now (even a weekly schedule of activities!) but I am flexible within the routine. The older she gets the better she seems to be knowing what is coming next. She naturally wakes up at the same time daily, eats at the same times (even mentioning she is hungry if I happen to space out about offering), rest time at the same time daily (doesn't sleep but plays quietly for about 20-30 minutes in her room), and she has a definite bedtime because she needs it. She wakes up at 7:30 a.m. and is in bed asleep by 7 p.m. She doesn't nap so she needs that nighttime sleep.

I guess my point is that even individual children can have varying scheduling needs as they grow and change. My toddler needs the predictability of a routine and I am happy to have that structure in place for her. As an infant she needed much less structure. But, I think keeping flexibility in place is also a very healthy thing. Some days she wants to eat more than others- fine. Food isn't something I choose to battle over with her and I am fortunate that she likes mostly healthy, nutrient dense foods. More than anything, if you are both happy with a routine then have one. If your child is showing signs of being miserable with too much scheduling, loosen up. Try different things until you figure out what your family vibe is. Nothing has to be set in stone, you can change. That is what I love about parenting- I don't have any particular philosophy that I adhere to (like CC, CL, etc.) I just try different things and see what we collectively as a family respond and function well with.

[Kappa]

My kids will have set bedtimes, but not necessarily set naptimes. I don't have an opinion on scheduling vs. not scheduling, I think the problem comes in when you have parents who ignore the child's needs. I went to a small child's bday party the other day, and I tell you there were some kids there that had obviously missed their naps and needed to lay down. They could not enjoy the party, but of course were fighting sleep. The hostess offered two bedrooms many times for naps, but none of the parents took her up on the offer (we were there pretty much all afternoon 1-6pm). Also, there are kids that just aren't getting enough sleep chronically. It may seem that they are maintaining a high energy level, but sleep deprived children may have attention deficit type symptoms that seem like energy that can easily be solved with an extra couple of hours of sleep every night. It's the parents' responsibility. If that reference says your kid needs 10 hours of sleep every night at a certain age, that PROBABLY includes your kid, whether you want to believe he/she needs that much sleep or not. The kids are not there to entertain the parent, they should not be kept up for no reason.
I have no kids (I'm pregnant though) so you can take what I have to say about this with a grain of salt.

[Aletheia]

Uh-oh, mommy wars. :

Thanks, Mamasaurus, for your response...

I have a few questions in order to figure out what might be going on here - what time does your DS normally wake up, take a nap, and go to bed? What type of physical activity does he have during the day?

Sleep issues for kids is a pet subject of mine...

Wellllll.... he used to be down at 7, up at 6, nap at 9:30-10:45, nap at 1:30-2:45. Almost like clockwork. But...we just did a bunch of travelling, I think he is trying to move to one nap a day, AND he seems to be gearing up to talk. So yeah, it's no wonder we're having difficulties. My problem is that I know *why* we're having the difficulties, but I don't know what the best way is to deal with them. I want to be consistent. Even if if he won't remember how I dealt with him refusing bedtime this time, I want to figure out what my stance is now so that I'm not confusing him later down the line. (See, Type A.)

[guestmama9972]

I haven't read all the posts, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here.

I believe there is something to be said for order and routine in the home, in moderation. We eat 3 meals a day together, not at any specific time, and my girls choose whether or not to eat. If they don't eat breakfast and are hungry an hour later, they can have a healthy snack. I don't assume they are hungry just because there is food on the table. I offer healthy choices and sometimes not so healthy ones, and the girls pretty much regulate themselves and their diets. A couple of nights ago dd #2 ate only raw carrots for supper. That's what she wanted and I just figured she needed the veggies.

As far as sleep, dd #1 has to get up at 6:30 for school every day. So she is in bed by 8 every night. This is a decision I made because this is a child who needs a good night's sleep to function. If I let her she would stay up until 10 or 11 every night, then would need a good 30 minutes in bed to wind down and go to sleep. Until she is older and can either get by on less sleep or make the choice to go to bed when she is tired rather than fighting it, she will have a set bedtime.

Before she started school the bedtime was a rather fluid concept.

I don't think I would adopt a lifestyle where there was no routine at all because to me that seems like chaos. I notice that my home is more peaceful when we follow a general routine.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by Jessy1019

I do think, though, that parents who enforce rigid schedules to the point that they will skip a party or other fun event because their child has to be home to nap right on time are doing their kids no favors. While some people may naturally prefer schedules, encouraging flexibilty is VERY important, IMO.

What makes you think it is the parents enforcing the schedules?

Maybe this will change when he's older, because DS is just a baby (so why am I posting here? not sure), but if your child has always gotten tired at the same time every day, what are you supposed to do? Drag a tired child to a party and force him/ her to stay awake when he or she would rather be in bed? DS has always scheduled himself and there isn't much I can do to change that without making him miserable. It's not always a convenient schedule for me (in fact it's very inconvenient a lot of the time), but he gets tired when he gets tired and he gets hungry when he gets hungry. We have, maybe 4-5 times, had to take him to an event at his usual naptime and he was sobbing for sleep.

[alllyssa]

Sorry, I didn't have time to read all the posts, but here's my $.02:

The "stone age South American Indian" babies/children (this is how the author herself describes them) in the Continuum Concept are living a VERY different lifestyle than most modern Americans/Canadians/Western Europeans.

These children are only offered what has been prepared to eat. No once asks the kid what they want for lunch. If they don't eat it, they simply go hungry and that appitite carries over to the next meal (I doubt that they skip many meals). There are NO refrigerators, televisions, or artificial lights to keep them wired and awake much past dark. These children run and play and work from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep. My guess is that they are really tired once the sun goes down.

In my opinion, it would be very difficult to try to emulate their lifestyle in our modern everyday lives, nor is it necessary to raise happy, healthy, well adjusted kids. "We" have the opposite problem, too much food choice, too much after dark stimulation, too much driving, sitting and reading or watching TV and not enough running, jumping, swimming, and playing around with siblings or the neighborhood kids. Not enough real physical work.

Reading the CC is a great anthopological snapshot of how things have worked among humans living in very "primative" (for lack of a better word) societies, but in my opinion, it has very little to do with how my "modern" familiy functions.

[journeymom]

My kids are 12 y.o and 8 y.o. So far, I have learned that many parents do what we did, which was to simply ride out a difficult, sleep deprived time for the first few years after our children are born. It's just difficult. Gradually, their own internal clocks get closer in sync with our adult clocks.

About the time they became toddlers we started a bed time. That bed time changed as needed. At first we rarely got them to sleep by our designated time. They'd get out of bed a lot. We put them back to bed. Some nights they'd be wakeful. We give them a little leeway, but it's good for them to realize Mom and Dad need quiet time after they go to bed. Bed time schedule was/is a goal to aim for. Now they are in bed by 9:00. It works for US.

I always kept in mind that my need for sleep is profound.

Aletheia, some people get their kids on a schedule with little problem. Some people are fine letting their kids stay up till whenever. Do what is right for your child and you. At 15 months, his sleep/wake pattern is still not going to match yours entirely.

======

Those mommy wars can be so intense! A lot gets lost in translation. I suspect our individual experiences are probably very similar. Our intentions are all similar. But the problem is people end up feeling defensive about their choices.

The phrase "tied down" has negative connotations.

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by Jessy1019

When I see that, I typically think it's a scheduling mom who was forced to break her schedule for the day, thus resulting in the meltdown. The kids I know who behave like that have pretty strict schedules and routines at home . . . whereas my kids are always happy to be going and doing, no matter what the hour.

Circadian rhythms. But aren't you lucky that your children do not require naps beyond babyhood. How flexible that lets you be.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by Aletheia

Wellllll.... he used to be down at 7, up at 6, nap at 9:30-10:45, nap at 1:30-2:45. Almost like clockwork. But...we just did a bunch of travelling, I think he is trying to move to one nap a day, AND he seems to be gearing up to talk. So yeah, it's no wonder we're having difficulties. My problem is that I know *why* we're having the difficulties, but I don't know what the best way is to deal with them. I want to be consistent. Even if if he won't remember how I dealt with him refusing bedtime this time, I want to figure out what my stance is now so that I'm not confusing him later down the line. (See, Type A.)

I remember the dropping from two naps to one as a particularly bumpy period for us. My DD did that around 10 months IIRC. I'm pretty sure that I just tried to lay her down for her nap a little later each day, creeping up the down time and then after a couple weeks she was going down right after lunch instead of during the late morning.

FWIW, my daughter has never slept on the go, in the car, in the seat, in the stroller, etc. - being out and about it too interesting and stimulating to her. I am really fascinated when I see children asleep in public! So I guess even without a "schedule" we were still tied to the house somewhat. And I much preferred the one long nap to the two short ones. You can start getting so much done in the a.m. again.

Best wishes and I hope things begin to transition more smoothly!

[Jessy1019]

Originally Posted by lolar2

What makes you think it is the parents enforcing the schedules?

Maybe this will change when he's older, because DS is just a baby (so why am I posting here? not sure), but if your child has always gotten tired at the same time every day, what are you supposed to do? Drag a tired child to a party and force him/ her to stay awake when he or she would rather be in bed? DS has always scheduled himself and there isn't much I can do to change that without making him miserable. It's not always a convenient schedule for me (in fact it's very inconvenient a lot of the time), but he gets tired when he gets tired and he gets hungry when he gets hungry. We have, maybe 4-5 times, had to take him to an event at his usual naptime and he was sobbing for sleep.

This thread was about whether or not to enforce a schedule, so obviously it would be the parent enforcing one since the child doesn't seem inclined to follow it on his or her own.

Like I said, though, flexibility is what would matter to me as a parent. I never purposely stayed home when my kids were sleeping, and they had no problem sleeping in the car, in a stroller, in a sling, or on a floor somewhere. My hope was that by taking them out and giving them the opportunity to sleep on the go, they would be accustomed to doing that and thereby avoid meltdowns when we needed to be out of the house during their tired times. Did it work or was I just fortunate? I don't know. But it's worth a try.

If I had a child (not baby, but child) who typically did things at the same time each day, I'd be inclined to try adjusting their schedule here and there to see what I could get away with. Would anything work to buy us an extra fifteen minutes or half hour (at first) and more time as we went along? Could I anticipate a tired period coming and get them to delay it by reading and quiet play instead of running around/active play?

pigpokey:

Circadian rhythms. But aren't you lucky that your children do not require naps beyond babyhood. How flexible that lets you be.

My daughter napped until she was two and my son is approaching two and still naps . . they just did/do it wherever, in the car, in a stroller or sling, etc. I wasn't bound to the house by their need for sleep.

And yes, I feel lucky, but I don't think my kids are particularly rare in their inborn flexibility. I think a lot of kids today are conditioned to follow a schedule and thus can't tolerate any deviation from it.

[butterflykisses4]

I am exrtemely laid back with all my kids ages 6,5,3 and 1. We have general eating times about 8am for the kids who go to school 12ish ofr lunch and then dinner form 5-7ish. I make dinner but if they dont like it oh well I try and have them take on bit. All my kids have been grazers where they eat when they want. i have always had fresh fruit and veggies inthe lower compartment of our fridge so if they want somethening they can get it. If you give them the choice between candy and fruit. fruit almost always wins. I mean they are not angels candy does win out when friends are over and sometimes after they eat but most of the time they rather have veggies and fruit. AS for sleep scheduels. I have them in bed by 8:30. Thier choice to sleep or quietly read until they fall asleep. Naps are whenever for my 1 year old. She actually gets her blanket and goes to her room if she is tired. That is our que. They all get glasses of milk at breakfast lunch and dinner but have the cups out during the day for water. I do believe they know. they know when they are ready to go to sleep and all the fighting and trying int eh world isn't going to make them sleep any faster. i for on HAVE to read to get to sleep. I couldn't imagine someone saying NOW close your eyes and go to sleep. That isn't how my clock works. So I figure the same logic to my kids. Same with eating someday I want huge meals only 3 times a day someday I eat healthy snacks. It is actually said that eating 6 small meals healthy grant it helps keep you slimmer and healthier. Kinda smae logic for my kids. =) Hope this helps! oht he school that they go to they take 2 snacks healthy to school yes they eat at 11:15 everyday but can snack on thier snacks at thier desks when they need to.

[geek_the_girl]

I think that we all just do what works best for each of us no matter how different it is and thats ok.
We pretty much have no schedule. DD is 5 and goes to bed anywhere between 8:30 and Midnight. We generally do school stuff in the morning but sometimes its out of our control and it happends in the afternoon. As for eating she lets us know. Having no schedule works great for us but im sure it certainly wouldnt work for many just a like a schedule certainly wouldnt work for our family

[mamasaurus]

Originally Posted by Jessy1019

I do think, though, that parents who enforce rigid schedules to the point that they will skip a party or other fun event because their child has to be home to nap right on time are doing their kids no favors.

Well, just speaking for my girls - I know that if I tried to get them to some party or fun event during their normal naptime, they would really have a hard time, and there would probably be a meltdown.

And that is no favor to them.

And not because *I'm* forcing a naptime on them - their own bodies are telling them when to nap - and I'm simply respecting that and encouraging and supporting that for them.

Like it or not - we schedule morning outings about 4-5 days a week, and try to be home between 1 to 1:30pm for nap time/quiet time.

I know my kids - this works best for them.