Tell me more about the Orthodox church - Page 2

[lilyka]

Oh my gosh . . believe it or not I left something out

One of the things that led to my general spirityual crisis is that all the change and all the smoke and mirors (literal and figurative) that they were using to sell Christ just kept minimizing and minimizing God to me. I looked out one day and realized that everyone was worshiping a God who bowed down to them. the worship area had to be just so or they wouldn't feel comfortable, the service had to be mid day because they couldn't be bothered to wake up after a night of partying, the dress had to be casual because if they bothered to dress at all after crawling out of bed they certainly wanted to be comfortable. there were cofffee shops and book stores and lounges in case yuo just weren't cofortable enough in the sanctuary. there were private gyms and cafes and family centers becoming the norm. the music had t be top notch to our ears and in a style that was relevent to us. we only wanted to worship with other eople just like us who shared our tastes and goals.

Quite honestly I wanted a God who just wasn't that concerned about me and my whims. I wanted a God who cammanded worship and adoration on his terms. not ours.

Then someone pointed out how all the praise songs and gospels song were all about us. I didn't believe it at first but when I listened to the words (rather than getting caught up in the emotion - which is very carefully orchastrated because getting caught up emotionally is the halmark od some holy spirit experiance even though the same response can be seen at any rock concert - Christian or secular) but when I listened to the words i realized the were right - I need more, I want more, you come to me, touch me, come to me, heal me, clear my path, make it easy for me to have yuor blessings, me me me i want I want i want. very little just out right praising God.

and some of the things they said were pretty brazen and arrogant. I still go to a protastant church with my husband and sing along because hey . . I am a team player and will have a good attitude . . . .but the song said "I want to touch you, I want to see your face". Think for a moment about any one who had a chance to see Gods face. Most knew better than to look. Was it moses who hid in the cleft of a rock. "Please no God! I would be destrpoyed if I looked on your glory." When Christ was transfigured even though the disciples has seen him before I believe they passed out cold when they just had a glimpse of his real glory.

Anyway . . I wanted a God who didn't bow down to me. and if it wasn't the God of the evangelical church I could live with that. if there was no god like that I could live with that too. but I believed the real God, the God I had known all along, was a God who bows to no one. So step two was to find a church who didn't give a crap about my whims and desires but was there to worship God alone. In the orthodox church the worship goes on even if no one but the priest shows up. I have walked in on the middle of the service and was the first one there. I love that it is so not about me. I am invited to join in for prayer and worship. but I am not the reason for it. no one is going to come to me with a sale pitch and offers to find a view of a god suitable for me. they have their God, he has instituted worship his way. and I can take it or leave it thankyouverymuch. (don't get me wrong. if I missed more than week people would be on the phone to see what was wrong. but that is because they love me, not because they are pandering for me or overly concerned with getting the unchurched in the pews at any cost for no good reason).

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

, In the orthodox church the worship goes on even if no one but the priest shows up. I have walked in on the middle of the service and was the first one there.

Just a wee point - that's technically correct for Vespers and Matins (evening and morning prayer to the non-Orthodox folks, when Lilyka says Orthros, that's the Greek word for Matins) - but unlike Catholic priests who can say Mass solo, Orthodox priests MUST have at least one person in the congregation to be able to serve the Divine Liturgy (Eucharist service).

To do so otherwise is a HUGE no-no!

[lilyka]

Ha I guess it has never been *that* empty

Do chanters or acolytes count as people in the congregation?

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

Ha I guess it has never been *that* empty

Do chanters or acolytes count as people in the congregation?

The priest cannot be alone in the church for the Liturgy, so I guess chanters/acolytes would count.

[Ms.QsMama]

I'm literally in tears over here. Thank you so much for sharing lilyka! I greatly appreciate the time and energy it took to post that.

I have quite a few thoughts running through my mind right now that need some reflection, and also some time to sort through them all before I can formulate any kind of coherent response. I just wanted you to know that your journey deeply resonates with me and I'll probably have loads of questions for you in the near future. (I'll try my hardest not to bombard you!)

Once again, my deepest thanks for sharing your story.

[lilyka]

ask away

[Ms.QsMama]

Okay, here are a few off the top of my head:

-What does confession look like? What is the purpose of it? Does it differ from the RCC's perception of confession or is it basically the same thing?

-Tell me more about the icons. What is their role in worship and prayer?

-What does a typical service look like?

-Is there a greater emphasis on grace or works?

I'm coming at these question with very little knowledge of the Orthodox church, so if they don't make sense, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

[amydep]

Thank you so much for sharing your story lilyka!!

[lilyka]

-What does confession look like? What is the purpose of it? Does it differ from the RCC's perception of confession or is it basically the same thing?

I have never actually confessed (I am still in the process of converting) but I do know that unlike the catholic church you are face to face with your spiritual father (usually your preist but occaisionally another clergy) . You confess to Christ but in the pressence of the priest.



-Tell me more about the icons. What is their role in worship and prayer?

This article is a really good explination of icons. Personally they help me connect to people I have never met. They give me a tangible way to express my respect and affection. A way to visually bring my min into focus and keep it from wandering during prayer.

-What does a typical service look like?
Depends on the service. All services are liturgical. they follow a set script from start to finish. Some are more the prist leading. Liturgy is a fully interactive service. There are times where the priest if off doing his thing behind closed doors and we are doing out thing. and there are times when we are interacting with each other. But we stand and participate through the whole things and few Orthodox churches have nursery as children are memebers and can't learn to worship if they are off somewhere else. however at least at our parish children are not only welcomed and tolerate (so long as you are trying, they obviously are not allowe to run a muck disrespectfully) but doted on and encouraged.

here is a link with some misc. cultural and functional things that may look different from the typical american church . . .

Ancient faith radio has a lot of clips of liturgical music and information on the Orthodx church. I am sure there has t be a full iturgy there somewhere . .. I will be sure I find you one tomorrow if I can d o it before I have to leave for work . . .

here is one link I found. I didn't listen (but will after i get back from work) but it looks amusing . . .

-Is there a greater emphasis on grace or works?
this is too big to answer in the 1 minute I have left before I absolutely have to leave for work but i will get back to it. to be brief we emphasize both

I am sorry. I know I haven't answered your questions well but I will come back tomorrow after work and try to be more specific

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

-What does confession look like? What is the purpose of it? Does it differ from the RCC's perception of confession or is it basically the same thing?

I have never actually confessed (I am still in the process of converting) but I do know that unlike the catholic church you are face to face with your spiritual father (usually your preist but occaisionally another clergy) . You confess to Christ but in the pressence of the priest.

Lilyka, hope you don't mind me answering this question. I've been Orthodox just shy of four years AND was raised RC.

MsQ -

The last confession I had in the RCC was my senior year in high school (1987). Basically, it was just a laundry list of sins. No one ever told me to do it differently. I always did it with the screen between the priest and I. That was the only option at the parish where I went to school. The different parish my family belonged to also had the face-to-face option, but that scared the heck out of me!

You know the accountability groups or individuals that seem to be popular in some Protestant circles? That's really just a variant of confession, although I'm sure the Protestants don't see it as that way, lol!

In the very early church, people would confess their sins in front of everyone. However, as the church grew, that got awkward. Eventually it changed into private confession, one on one with a priest, with the priest standing witness for the entire church.

Actually in the Orthodox Church, you are not face to face with your father confessor, you're side by side. You often stand in front of a little table or stand that has the Gospel book (or a Bible) on it, there's a cross there, as well as an icon of Christ. You simply stand side by side while you do your confession. Sometimes you might turn to face the priest, but if you can't do that, no problemo! There is a formal "rite of confession" but it's not used in my parish, aside from the absolution prayer. My priest always begins by asking how long it's been since my last confession. With the Antiochians and the OCA, the general rule of thumb is to go once a month. At the very least, you should go during the four fasting seasons (Nativity Fast/Advent, Great Lent, Apostles Fast, Dormition Fast).

Before you convert, you do your "whole life confession." Talk about SCARY! Since I had been raised Catholic, my priest let me go from the time of my last Catholic confession. Of course, all the bad stuff was after that! He walked me through the Ten Commandments. But I had 1-2 specific things I wanted to get out of the way (I was sooo nervous I was afraid I would forget), so we talked about those things first. I didn't get absolution after my confession. It was done the next morning during the chrismation service.

After you've done your confession, the priest will ask any questions (for clarification if needed) and provide some spiritual advice. It could be something as simple as hints to better manage your schedule to allow time for morning prayer or more Bible reading. Of course, you would also be counseled on how to avoid certain sins you've confessed from occuring again. My priest has said several times that if I didn't drive, I'd have a lot less to confess! Can we say "almost road rage"?: Then the priest will put his stole on your head and say the prayer of absolution.

I don't know if Catholic confession has changed any. I know in some parishes you have the choice of face to face or through the screen.

Here's a short article on confession.
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=54

As for how services look like, here are the texts for Matins (Othros) - morning prayer; Vespers - evening prayer; and Divine Liturgy (Eucharist).

Sunday Matins: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/mat-sun.htm

Great Vespers on Saturday evening (considered part of Sunday since our liturgical time is sundown to sundown like in Judaism): http://www.anastasis.org.uk/vespers.htm

Here's the Divine Liturgy:
http://www.saintjonah.org/services/s...sluzhebnik.doc

Clergy guidelines for the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) that might be helpful:
http://www.dosoca.org/files/clergyguidelines-1.pdf

The OCA Diocese of the South Priest's Service Book (yes, even though it's on the site of a Romanian parish):
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/ServiceBook/

You might also find this answers a lot of your questions, as well:
http://www.stots.edu/these_truths_we_hold.html

[Ms.QsMama]

Thank you both so much! A few more question regarding confession:

-What is the priests role in confession and absolution? Is he present mainly so that the confession is public? Is he sitting in for God giving you absolution? (I know that was poorly worded, but I can't figure out a better way to ask.) Is his role in absolution just to remind you of God's grace and mercy, or is he actually forgiving you himself? What if you've wronged someone and you confess your sin to them? Are you still required to repent before a priest, or is repenting to the person you sinned against sufficient?

I did read the article, I swear! (Good article too! Just had some lingering questions, obviously!)

ETA: I thought of another! Is there a concept of purgatory or some other form of separation from God if you aren't absolved before you pass? Can you loose your salvation/or is it in a state of pending if you commit a grave sin and don't confess?

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama

Is there a concept of purgatory or some other form of separation from God if you aren't absolved before you pass? Can you loose your salvation/or is it in a state of pending if you commit a grave sin and don't confess?

I hope nobody minds me jumping in here. I converted to Orthodoxy about thirty years ago.
1) There is no concept of Purgatory. That is a uniquely Roman Catholic doctrine. However, the concepts of Heaven and Hell are also a bit different in the Orthodox than the Catholic church.
2) One of the central differences between the Orthodox perspective and that of the Catholic and other Western churches is that the Orthodox Church never developed a legalistic way of categorizing things like degrees of sins, levels of punishment, etc. Your question is an example, if you don't mind my saying so, of a Western Christian way of thinking about these things.
We can virtually never say what spiritual state an individual was in at the time of his death, regardless of what his actions were beforehand. His actions might give us some clue, but ultimately it is between himself and God. We also cannot say how God will receive any one individual. None of us, no matter how good we have been or how recently we have confessed, is free of sin or worthy of Heaven. Heaven is always given as a free, undeserved gift. Sin is one of the things that lead us to reject the gift, or be unable to accept it. Punishment is not really God's intention in the Orthodox world view, much less a specific punishment meted out for a particular sin.
I know a lot of Protestants and Catholics find the Orthodox way of looking at these things annoyingly vague, but it is a big part of Orthodox teaching.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama

Thank you both so much! A few more question regarding confession:

-What is the priests role in confession and absolution? Is he present mainly so that the confession is public? Is he sitting in for God giving you absolution? (I know that was poorly worded, but I can't figure out a better way to ask.) Is his role in absolution just to remind you of God's grace and mercy, or is he actually forgiving you himself? What if you've wronged someone and you confess your sin to them? Are you still required to repent before a priest, or is repenting to the person you sinned against sufficient?

I did read the article, I swear! (Good article too! Just had some lingering questions, obviously!)

ETA: I thought of another! Is there a concept of purgatory or some other form of separation from God if you aren't absolved before you pass? Can you loose your salvation/or is it in a state of pending if you commit a grave sin and don't confess?

First off, I'll take the last question. It's the easier one! No purgatory. That's a RC belief (in fact one that they seem to be backing away from some recently, from what I've read). Orthodox teaching isn't totally clear on this. I've gotten the following from my priest: When you die, there's an immediate judgment. If you go to heaven (and Orthodox don't believe in the once saved, always saved stance that many Protestants take. Salvation is a continual work in progress. One of the NT Epistles speaks of being careful that you don't fall), your joy is not fully complete as Christ's Second Coming hasn't happened yet. But that's just speculation - because we can't know!

This might help:http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=23

Orthodoxy, unlike the RCC, doesn't haven an official, Vatican-approved catechism. The "vagueness" of some things drives some people crazy, that there aren't "definite answers." In fact, a lot of our theology is expressed in our liturgical texts, so that's a good place to go.

But because "we don't know" we still pray for the dead.

Funeral service: http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Servi...eral/index.htm

This is the Trisagion Service, said on the anniversary of someone's death, or for someone you want to pray for, such as when the death occurred elsewhere. For example, a retired OCA archbishop died recently, and my priest did the Trisagion Service after the Sunday Divine Liturgy.

http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Servi...l/Memorial.htm

From Bishop Kallistos Ware, author of The Orthodox Church (the standard intro to Orthodox in English, himself raised Anglican in the UK and converted to Orthodoxy about 40 years ago): "Orthodox are convinced that Christians here on earth have a duty to pray for the departed, and they are confident that the dead are helped by such prayers. " (The Orthodox Church, p. 254-255)

Gosh, and I though this was going to be the easy question! But one thing morphed into the other.

Now for confession.

"Through confession, sins committed after baptism are forgiven and the sinner is reconciled to the Church. It is often called " a healing of the soul, since the priest not only gives absolution but spiritual advice." (The Orthodox Church, p. 288)

The way we do confession (in front of a Bible/Gospel book, Cross and icon of Christ) "emphasizes in Confession that it is not the priest but God who is the judge, while the priest is only a witness and God's minister." (The Orthodox Church, p. 288).

Prayer of absolution: "May our Lord of God, Jesus Christ, through the grace and bounties of his love towards mankind, forgive thee, my child [your name], all thy transgressions. And I, an unworthy priest, through the power given unto me by him, do forgive and absolve thee from all thy sins. In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen." (A Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayers, p .60, this prayer is what is used by the Antiochians and OCA, and the Russian Orthodox as well).

It was NOT normal, for centuries, for the priest to refer to himself in the first person during the prayer of absolution. As the explanatory footnote in my prayer book mentions, "The use of the personal pronoun, not customary in the Eastern Church, was introduced into the Slavonic form of absolution in the Ukraine in the 17th Century. At that time the prayer books were revised by scholoars who were under the influence of Latin theology." (A Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayers, p. 60). This the Russian form, although the Antiochians, while the mother church is in the Middle East, have some Russian influences. The Greek form of the prayer of absolution leaves out the "I, an unworthy priest" part, although it does mention "All that you have confessed to my humble person...God forgive thee through me a sinner" not much different, but some.

"The Holy Spirit grants Christ's pardon and healing to the penitent. Through the Mystery of the Church [in Orthodoxy, the sacraments, which is a Latin word, are usually called the Holy Mysteries, from the Greek] and by the means of the forgiveness expressed by the congregation and its priest, the penitent is now "whiter than snow" [Psalm 51 Hebrew, 50 in the Greek Septuagint]. (The Living God: A Catechism for the Christian Faith, Vol. 2, p.327)

What if you've wronged someone and you confess your sin to them? Are you still required to repent before a priest, or is repenting to the person you sinned against sufficient?

Asking the forgiveness of someone you've wronged is mandated by the Bible. "So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the alrar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 4:23-24 RSV) But you STILL have to confess it to God with the witness of the Church in the person of the priest and receive absolution.

As Fr. Thomas Hopko (who also wrote the books on the OCA website we keep referring to) wrote in the booklet, If We Confess Our Sins:

"If we confession our sins...He will forgive us [First Epistle of John]..." But to whom do we confess? To God, of course. But where is God? God is with us, in the Church's faith, through Christ in Holy Spirit. We confess to God in His Church. If we come to the Church to be baptized and confirmed [chrismation], and to receive Holy Communion...it would really be strange if we did not come to the Church to confess our sins and to receive God's forgiveness!

We confess to God in the Church. This meant for centuries that we confess to the Church, to all the members of the Church. And it means the same today.

Christian confession, and even confession in the Old Testament, was always public confession. Indeed there was no idea that confession could be anything but public. A "secret" confession done in the privacy of one's soul "to God alone" - an idea not unheard of in very recent times - is completely unknown in both biblical and churchly history. A confession which is not a totally open and public confession before God, man and all creation is no confession at all. This is the Orthodox Faith. (p/ 13-14)

And another quote (talking about the development of confession from in front of everyone to in front of only one person): But the confession was done to one person as if done openly and to all; or to put it another way, the confession was still made openly and to all, but in the person of one of the brothers [ie, the local priest]." (p. 15)

WHEW! Hope that answers your question, at least better than before. But it probably raises more questions, doesn't it?

You should see my desk - covered with books I pulled out to answer you questions, and even some on the floor when I ran out of room on my desk!

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

I hope nobody minds me jumping in here. I converted to Orthodoxy about thirty years ago.
1) There is no concept of Purgatory. That is a uniquely Roman Catholic doctrine. However, the concepts of Heaven and Hell are also a bit different in the Orthodox than the Catholic church.
2) One of the central differences between the Orthodox perspective and that of the Catholic and other Western churches is that the Orthodox Church never developed a legalistic way of categorizing things like degrees of sins, levels of punishment, etc. Your question is an example, if you don't mind my saying so, of a Western Christian way of thinking about these things.
We can virtually never say what spiritual state an individual was in at the time of his death, regardless of what his actions were beforehand. His actions might give us some clue, but ultimately it is between himself and God. We also cannot say how God will receive any one individual. None of us, no matter how good we have been or how recently we have confessed, is free of sin or worthy of Heaven. Heaven is always given as a free, undeserved gift. Sin is one of the things that lead us to reject the gift, or be unable to accept it. Punishment is not really God's intention in the Orthodox world view, much less a specific punishment meted out for a particular sin.
I know a lot of Protestants and Catholics find the Orthodox way of looking at these things annoyingly vague, but it is a big part of Orthodox teaching.

Well, your answer was shorter than mine!

Good points, different than the ones I addressed.

[Tradd]

Something to add about confession:

Penance (as in doing something to make up for your sins) is not as much a part of Orthodox confession as it is in the RCC. Yes, if you've done something wrong, like stealing, you'll make retribution. But unlike every Catholic confession I went to, where you were given a certain number of Our Fathers, Hail Marys and Glory Be prayers to say, that sort of thing is rare.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by Tradd

Lilyka, hope you don't mind me answering this question. I've been Orthodox just shy of four years AND was raised RC.

I was hoping you would

[lilyka]

thanks guys. Thats a lot of good information.

I am dreading confession. after the first noe it won't be such a big deal i think but I am really scared the priest is going to think I am crazy awful person and not want me hanging out with his family any more.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

thanks guys. Thats a lot of good information.

I am dreading confession. after the first noe it won't be such a big deal i think but I am really scared the priest is going to think I am crazy awful person and not want me hanging out with his family any more.

Lilyka, don't worry about it. There are NO new sins! In other words, Fr. G has heard it ALL before.

And besides, as my priest says, a priest can't behave differently to you after he's heard something specific in confession. To do so, would be tantamount to breaking the seal of the confessional, which is a no-no!

[Tradd]

Here's a post from Fr. Stephen Freeman's Glory to God for All Things blog today, that speaks in part about confession, which you might find helpful:

http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2...-god/#comments

The picture at the beginning of the post is confession in progress!

[Ms.QsMama]

Thanks! Of course now I have more questions.

(If this gets to be too much mamas, let me know. I deeply appreciate all the thought, time, and grace you have put into these responses. I'm trying not to bombard, but it's really hard to put the brakes on!)

mamabadger, these are directed to you:

However, the concepts of Heaven and Hell are also a bit different in the Orthodox than the Catholic church.

Could you please elaborate?

Sin is one of the things that lead us to reject the gift, or be unable to accept it.

And this one as well?