Tell me more about the Orthodox church - Page 3

[Ms.QsMama]

and for you Tradd:

If you go to heaven (and Orthodox don't believe in the once saved, always saved stance that many Protestants take. Salvation is a continual work in progress. One of the NT Epistles speaks of being careful that you don't fall)

This is a completely new concept to me. What about John 10:25-30 and Revelations 3:4-6? (I'm not trying to debate you, just trying to understand.)

[Ms.QsMama]

and for anyone who wants to take a stab:

Is there a greater emphasis on grace or works? (I know I already asked this, but it didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle.)

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by Tradd

Something to add about confession:

Penance (as in doing something to make up for your sins) is not as much a part of Orthodox confession as it is in the RCC. Yes, if you've done something wrong, like stealing, you'll make retribution. But unlike every Catholic confession I went to, where you were given a certain number of Our Fathers, Hail Marys and Glory Be prayers to say, that sort of thing is rare.

That depends entirely on the priest. My penance for my last confession (which included some pretty serious sins) was to read and meditate on the Gospel reading for that Sunday. No Hail Marys, no Our Fathers, just that.

[Tradd]

I'm working on mine! Just have to find the references in my books/online. I don't explain things that well, but can usually tell you where to go for references!

Here's something to keep you busy in the meantime, an article on the issue of closed Communion (it always comes up eventually):

http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-artic...June&YEAR=2007

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama

and for you Tradd:



This is a completely new concept to me. What about John 10:25-30 and Revelations 3:4-6? (I'm not trying to debate you, just trying to understand.)

Here you go - just had to google for it. Knew it was on the OCA website, just not sure exactly where! The Orthodox view on "once saved, always saved":

http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=36&SID=3

[Tradd]

Here's something on grace:

http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.c...-is-grace.html

Don't forget James 2:17 "So faith by iteself, if it has no works, is dead." (and later on that chapter).

"The Orthodox Church rejects any doctrine of grace which might seem to infringe upon human fredom. To describe hte relation between the grace of God and human freedom, Orthodoxy uses the term cooperation or synergy (synergia in Greek); in Paul's words: 'We are fellow-workers (synergoi) with God' (1 Corinthians 3:9). If we are to achieve full fellowship with God, we cannot do so without God's help, yet we must also play our own part: we humans as well as God must make our contribution to the common work, although what God does is of immeasurably greater importance that what we do. 'The incorporation of humans into Christ and our union with God require the cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will.

'It is for God to grant His grace,' said St. Cyril of Jerusalem (died 386); 'your task is to accept that grace and to guard it.' But it must not be imagined that because a persona accepts and guards God's grace, he thereby earns 'merit.' God's gifts are always free gifts, and we humans can never have any claims upon our Maker. But while we cannot 'merit' salvation, we must certainly work for it, since 'faith without works is dead' (James 2:17).
-Bishop Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Church, pp. 221-222

[lilyka]

John 10:25-30 - IMHO, Nothing can snatch us out of God's hand. but we can choose to leave. Since salvation is not an irrevocable contract we enter into we can't force ourselves into gods hand or force him to hold on. This verse just reminds us that God is in control here and Satan cannot take by force what God has determined as his own. I think however we can choose to freely walk away and embrace Satan.

i think the verse in Revelations pretty much says the same thing. There were a few people who were worthy of being saved (not defiled their garment) and they indeed will walk with Him forever. but this is at his bidding.

I guess I wouldn't even bring the whole "once saved always saved" thing into the equation because it is still looking at salvation as a moment in time. a line in the sand. which is very much how I viewed it. and that leaves you with only two options. Retaining that salvation forever (Assuming you really did achieve salvation) or losing it. But we don't really view salvation as something you possess. You don't just stick your flag in the ground and claim it. you can't lose it because it was never something you had to begin with. it is something you are doing an something that is being done in you. However we believe God is infinitely merciful and his grace is sufficient for all. bigger than walking the isle the sinner prayers or anything else that people use to stake their claim on salvation. I think it is far better to be a little unsure and always walking with God, growing in our salvation, than to be think we are sure and then hear him say "depart from me. I never knew you". and even one can be sure of their own salvation I think it is highly presumptuous and dangerous to assure someone else of theirs. we do not know a mans heart and mind and we certainly do not know Gods. it makes me weak to think of all the time I heard people assuring others of their salvation. What if they are wrong? what if they convinced someone not to worry about their salvation when they very much needed to?

its kinda tricky but if you can let go of thinking that you have to be sure and just believe and trust that God loves you. if you can let go of thinking that salvation is a line in the sand but rather a choice we make every moment of every day. Stop thinking that salvation is an irrevocable contract you trick God into by saying some magic prayer. then it kinda makes sense. It was good for me that I hit a sort of spiritual rock bottom. Struggling with what looked like a very easy salvation and cheap grace around me and rejecting that really left me a clean slate in this area when I was introduced to the orthodox church. being blank helped. having already rejected the "you pray this prayer and then you are good to go forever" mentality really made it easier to accept.

and you would think all t his lack of assurance would leave people panicking. but I don't see it. I know I certainly feel more secure than I ever did. funny isn't it. But I figure God loves me. He wouldn't have sent his son if he didn't. And if at the final judgment he wants me I will be thankful. If he doesn't, my own fault. But I trust that he loves me and wants me, probably more than I want him. I believe that he is just and wiling to forgive my sin if I am willing to repent. I sincerely believe that God is good and merciful and just. and whatever his eternal plans and final judgment are for me they will be exactly what they ought to be.

As for grace and works I did not forget you asked. I have been stewing. Its a tough question and I am not sure of the answer. I am not sure the two are really related. . . . I am going to do some more research. . . ask some questions and get back to you.

[Nora'sMama]

Originally Posted by Tradd

Nora's Mom, you might find these two blogs interesting...both by Southerners who converted to Orthodoxy and are priests. One is from TN (and lives in TN), the other is from NC and now lives in Houston. Both were Episcopalians, but Fr. Joseph was brought up a Baptist. Fr. Joseph's Antiochian and wrote a very funny (although quite serious, too) book called One Flew Over the Onion Dome: American Orthodox Converts, Retreads and Reverts. There's actually a section on Orthodoxy in the South. Fr. Stephen is OCA.

Fr. Joseph Huneycutt's Orthodixie blog:
http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/

Fr. Stephen Freeman's blog:
http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/

2,000 former Evangelicals - the leaders used to be with Campus Crusade for Christ - became Orthodox through the Antiochians in 1987. Fr. Peter Gillquist, the leader of these former Evangelicals, wrote a book called Becoming Orthodox, chronicling their journey.

I was raised RC, lapsed for 10 years after HS graduation, then spent 5 years as an high church/Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian - so I don't get most of the issues Protestants have with Orthodoxy (saints, Mary, icons, confession). They were simply non-issues for me.

Thanks!!

[Ms.QsMama]

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama

Well?

[Ms.QsMama]

It's a lot to take in! I'm still wading through questions you've already answered, re-reading articles that were posted, etc. I just didn't want you mamas to think I'd abandoned the thread. I'm still here reading and watching. Just doing a bit of digesting.

[Ms.QsMama]

Is there a specific Bible translation (i.e. NIV, NLT, NAS, KJ, etc.) that the Orthodox church uses exclusively?

[lilyka]

no

[Ms.QsMama]

So what do they read out of primarily during the liturgy? Or does it matter?

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama

So what do they read out of primarily during the liturgy? Or does it matter?

Yes, it DOES matter! In fact, the OCA (Orthodox Church in America, descendant of the Russian Orthodox Church) has prohibited use of the NRSV in worship/parish sponsored Bible studies since 1990.

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.nrsv.html

The RSV is favored by the OCA, but that's changing some. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) likes the KJV. The NKJV is used by both the Antiochians & the OCA. The Antiochian Gospel book has the RSV. The complete Orthodox Study Bible, coming out in February, is based on the NKJV. Other Gospel books are using the NKJV.

You might find these articles helpful:
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/scrip...nthechurch.htm

http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-artic...mber&YEAR=2002

Not sure about the Greeks.

Although here's something to consider. The Antiochians & ROCOR use Elizabethan English in their translations of liturgical texts from the original languages (Arabic, Greek, Church Slavonic). However, these are much more understandable than the KJV Bible. The OCA uses English translations based on the RSV Bible (Thee, Thou and the appropriate verb endings referring to God the Father & the Son), lovely and reverent, but still understandable. The Greek Archdiocese in North America uses totally modern English translations (no Thee or Thou).

So, I'm totally NOT surprised to see the NRSV Bible for sale through Light & Life (very large supplier of English language Orthodox materials, started by a Greek Orthodox priest) or through the Greek Archdiocese website (in addition to other versions). The Greek Archdiocese website does link to a Bible site with the NKJV/KJV directly from the GOA website.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama

Is there a specific Bible translation (i.e. NIV, NLT, NAS, KJ, etc.) that the Orthodox church uses exclusively?

You won't catch an Orthodox priest recommending the NIV, NLT, NAS, the Message, etc.

It's the NKJV, RSV, KJV, and *maybe* the ESV.

[lilyka]

Our priest just says frind a good translation. He probably has some to recommend but i have ever asked. I use my MIV because it is what I am familiar with.

I don't know what we read out of when we read in English. about 50% of ther time we read it in the Greek.

There is also not a standrad English translation that we stick to for the liturgy. The one tsaid at my parish is different (more formal) than what is in our liturgy books. I think it just depends on what works for that parish.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

Our priest just says frind a good translation. He probably has some to recommend but i have ever asked. I use my MIV because it is what I am familiar with.

I don't know what we read out of when we read in English. about 50% of ther time we read it in the Greek.

There is also not a standrad English translation that we stick to for the liturgy. The one tsaid at my parish is different (more formal) than what is in our liturgy books. I think it just depends on what works for that parish.

The problem with many of the Protestant translations are the manuscripts they are based on. Or you can get an overly-Protestant influenced translation. My priest, who is also a biblical scholar and taught both OT & NT at several Protestant seminaries before he became Orthodox, will go on at length against the NIV, in particular.

See, with the Antiochians & the OCA, you just "can't use what works for the parish." The Antiochians & the OCA have approved translations, which happen to be pretty similiar (I've sat down and compared them, plus I'm at an OCA parish a lot, so I get "real life" experience!). My Antiochian parish will sometimes use OCA translations, but that's usually because of the music. The Antiochians are permitted to use the music of any Orthodox Church we're in communion with. We happen to like lots of Russian music in my parish - it's about half Byzantine, half Russian. The music we use for Pascha is from the St. Vlad's Press Pascha music book, so we end up using the OCA translation for Paschal Matins. No big deal since our bishop has approved it.

There are other things that are permitted. For example, at Vespers and Matins we've swapped out the Antiochian Elizabethan English (pretty much the KJV Bible) Psalms translation and use the RSV. Bishop knows and doesn't care.

[lilyka]

I guess I was staring with the assumption that there was more than one approved English translation of the liturgy and that parishes could use the one that works for them. I assume there are some approved ones but which of those we use depends on the preference of the priest and parish. Obviously the one in our service book is not the same one we say (well its the same for the most part but just a slightly different translation. ) and they are both different than the liturgy we have on tape which is also GO so there are at least three approved liturgy translations with the same content just slightly different language. Part of it mght be that we are only recently using English. I am guessing when the older priest reads a prayer or something in English he is actually reading it in Greek and translating in his head as he says it. Who knows. We also pray in Russian and hear the homily at the end of the service. Add top that what parts are in English and what parts are in Greek change from day to day . . . (The Russian stays the same each week as we only know a little bit) We are altogether a little different. I am sure it is all approved (Fr. G is very by the book) though. maybe the Greek are just a little more laid back about the particulars of the translation so long as it is a proper and correct translation, since English in and of itself is such a compromise .

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Tradd

The problem with many of the Protestant translations are the manuscripts they are based on. Or you can get an overly-Protestant influenced translation.

That is unfortunately true.
Some people I know look at specific verses as guidelines, when they are unfamiliar with a translation. One is John 2:4, which reads in the KJV as "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."
According to scholars of ancient Greek, the most literally accurate translation would be "Dear lady (or something like that - it is the word for woman in the diminutive form, denoting affection) what is that to you and to me?"
Some versions translate it more or less like this, but some Protestant versions (maybe out of a desire to discourage undue reverence for Mary) translate it as "What have you to do with my work, woman?" or "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" or even "Woman, don't tell me what to do!" Those not only miss the intent of the words, they do not even translate the phrase accurately. We have to be a bit careful of what translation we are reading.
Sorry for the long digression.