Talk to me about serotype replacement (sp?) - Page 2

[CanidFL]

Ok, this makes a lot of sense to me now. Basically vaccinating against bacteria is not good. I have no plans to vaccinate but I enjoy knowing what people are talking about on these threads.

I am also under the impression that I did not get hib and prevnar as a child and I never even thought about getting these diseases unless there was a kid in college who contracted it and even then I didn't worry all that much.

So you don't have to worry about this with measles, mumps, diptheria, rubella, and polio? Nothing replaces these?

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by CanidFL

Ok, this makes a lot of sense to me now. Basically vaccinating against bacteria is not good.

No, vaccinating for bacteria that have numerous biotypes and are transient microflora is not necessarily good.

I am also under the impression that I did not get hib and prevnar as a child and I never even thought about getting these diseases unless there was a kid in college who contracted it and even then I didn't worry all that much.

Depends upon how old you are and you most assuredly didn't get Prevnar . Hib was a major cause for infant meningitis, it no longer is due to the vaccine and the vaccine is still beneficial for infants.

So you don't have to worry about this with measles, mumps, diptheria, rubella, and polio? Nothing replaces these?

No, those are pretty stable and there are some different vaccine strains for the geographical genotypes.

SM

[mamakay]

No, those are pretty stable and there are some different vaccine strains for the geographical genotypes.

SM

You sure about that?
The MMR is basically the MMR internationally now for the most part as far as I know, (there are a couple of measles and mumps strains, but they're not based on what's circulating in any given area...they'd be interchangable) and with polio, there's Sabin 1 (I know that one's mahoney strain), 2, and 3 and that's tOPV everywhere, too.

[Science Mom]

Measles, Mumps and to a lesser extent, Rubella most certainly have a geographical circulating genotypes and the vaccine strains are based upon the respective progenitor wild-types.
Mumps: Urabe AM-9, Rubini, Leningrad-3, Leningrad-Zagreb, Hoshimo, Miyahara, Torii, NK M-46 and S-12 are all currently used in various parts of the world.

Measles: CAM-70 (spanking new in S. America), AIK-C, Moraten, Rubeovax, Schwarz, Edomonston-Zagreb and Edmonston, used all over.

Rubella: Cendenhill, RA27/3 and TO-336, ditto.

OPV: Yes, pretty much 1, 2 and 3 all over the world.

SM

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Unfortunately a lot of people believe that. But in fact studies have shown that vaccine-free kids are by far healthier than vaccinated kids. Unfortunately the vaccine manufacturers will NEVER do that sort of study. IMO this is not because it is "unethical" but rather because they fear the results.

Asking again to see these studies, would like to look at them. thanks

[krizzanne]

my keyboard is broken.
question: in this link: http://www.cdc.gov/Ncidod/EID/vol5no3/lipsitch.htm

in the section entitled:
Why Has Replacement Carriage Occurred with Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccines but Not with Hib Vaccines?

Is the answer that there are not enough HIB carriers to show serotype replacement mathamatically....??? I don't think I am understanding this part.

and isn't HIB showing up more in older kids now as opposed to before the vazx?

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Could you post these? I would love to take a look at them.

I am talking about the "Salzburg Study". The information was collected by a teacher.

http://www.*********/a/children1.html

http://www.909shot.com/Diseases/dimedia.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

Originally Posted by CanidFL

So you don't have to worry about this with measles, mumps, diptheria, rubella, and polio? Nothing replaces these?

I'm not so sure? We have a 5th disease now since there is the measles vaccine that is making a strong appearance.

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by Gitti

I am talking about the "Salzburg Study". The information was collected by a teacher.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

None of the other links were to actual studies. I would like to know what the authors concluded in this linked study.

SM

[carriebft]

The first study only had 23 unvaccinated children out of almost 1300 children studied...

You can't really draw anything from that. Or is tehre more to the study than that abstract? I can't seem to find the whole thing anywhere. But the percentages of vaccinated chidlren with asthma issues would mean nothing in comparison to only 23 unvaccinated.

Checking out the other links later! Thanks!

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by krizzanne

my keyboard is broken.
question: in this link: http://www.cdc.gov/Ncidod/EID/vol5no3/lipsitch.htm

in the section entitled:
Why Has Replacement Carriage Occurred with Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccines but Not with Hib Vaccines?

Is the answer that there are not enough HIB carriers to show serotype replacement mathamatically....??? I don't think I am understanding this part.

and isn't HIB showing up more in older kids now as opposed to before the vazx?

This s kinda complicated, but where the replacement has happened with Hi, it's not an actual serotype. They were looking for Hi serotype A (HiA)or Hi serotype F (HiF) or some strain with a capsule (and corresponding letter to name it) to replace Hi serotype B...but what replaced B was a type that's called "non-typeable" (NTHi). They used to think the non-typeable strain was more or less incapeable of causing serious disease, but that's not how it ended up working.

So it's "replacement disease" but not "serotype replacement", technically, because the non-typeable strain isn't an actual serotype.

ETA: That article is really old, too. (going on 10 years now?) It's been pretty recently that they figured out that NTHi has exploded, and it's relationship to Hib.

[Gitti]

No it was a questioner that was answered by 581 people whose children are vaccine free. And those children were compared to vaccinated children.

Percentages were given as to the results -

10% vaccinated kids have asthma.
0% out of the 581 vax free kids had asthma.

25% vaccinated kids have allergies.
2.9% out of the 581 Vax free kids had allergies.

10% vaccinated kids has ADS or ADHD.
1.37% out of 581 have ADHD.


and so on...

[mamakay]

Here are some links on NTHi replacing HiB:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...indexed=google

In addition to the proportional increase in cases of non-type b Haemophilus influenzae disease in the post-H. influenzae type b vaccine era, the incidence of invasive H. influenzae disease was found to be approaching the rates of H. influenzae type b disease that were documented in the prevaccine period. Fifty-six percent of invasive disease now occurs in individuals aged >10 years.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/511861

During January 1996–December 2004, 770 cases of invasive H. influenzae disease were reported to the Illinois Department of Public Health (Springfield). The incidence of disease increased from 0.4 to 1.0 cases per 100,000 persons, including an increase of incidence in adults aged 65 years from 1.1 to 3.9 cases per 100,000 persons. Nontypeable H. influenzae disease accounted for the greatest proportion of cases (35.8%–61.5%) in all but 1 age group. The number of cases of invasive nontypeable H. influenzae disease increased by 657%, from a low of 7 cases in 1996 to a high of 53 cases in 2004;

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=344485

Phenotypes and genetic relatedness of invasive Haemophilus influenzae strains were evaluated from 1989 through 2001. Among 119 isolates, multidrug resistance decreased (from 50 to 0%), the level of H. influenzae serotype b (Hib) strains declined (from 81 to 16%), the level of noncapsulated strains rose (from 19 to 80%), and the first invasive H. influenzae serotype f strain was described.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

Though numbers of Hib infections in adults fell after the introduction of Hib vaccines for children (P = 0.035), and there was no increase in infections caused by other capsulated Hi serotypes, total numbers of invasive Hi infections increased due to a large rise in infections caused by non-capsulated Hi (ncHi) strains (P = 0.0067)

[krizzanne]

thank you, for the links...I need some time to read...I'm still trying to finish the polio documents and the Donagan transcript!

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

None of the other links were to actual studies. I would like to know what the authors concluded in this linked study.

SM

That there was no asthma found in the unvaccinated kids.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by Gitti

No it was a questioner that was answered by 581 people whose children are vaccine free. And those children were compared to vaccinated children.

Percentages were given as to the results -

10% vaccinated kids have asthma.
0% out of the 581 vax free kids had asthma.

25% vaccinated kids have allergies.
2.9% out of the 581 Vax free kids had allergies.

10% vaccinated kids has ADS or ADHD.
1.37% out of 581 have ADHD.


and so on...

Ops, I meant the last link. SOrry my mistake. In that study it was like 1300 kids and only 23 unvaccinated. SM was right about the other two, they aren't really studies at all. But still reading through them and tucking away.

The other stuff seems like interpretation of studies but do not provide the link. Such as here:

http://www.*********/vaccines/NZ%20va...esearch%20.PDF

So ill have to fish around. I'd like to find the one mentioned here (from link #2):

Science News adds that a 1994 survey of 446 British children, most of them eight years old, showed that 91 received no vaccinations in early childhood. Only one child out of 91 got asthma. About 11 percent of the other 355 children who had been vaccinated with pertussis and other vaccines had asthma.

I would like to know if the children had any vaccinations in later childhood, since they only mention that there were no vaccinations in 'early childhood'.

Stuff like that happens when you only read interpretations, it can get slanted.

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by Gitti

That there was no asthma found in the unvaccinated kids.

Are you using the abstract or the full text for that conclusion? Also, are the authors methods consistent with that conclusion?

SM