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Banning used breast pumps?! Huh? - Page 3  

post #41 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellejar View Post
I might add, there has never been any case of any disease being transfered from a used pump. I looked into this when I was going back to work and spoke to a lactation RN who is a friend of mine. She said this is purely for Medela, Aventi and other manufactures.

Actually there have been, and from what I know the petition was started by a CLC who knew of a mom and baby who contacted a virus through a used pump. I have her story and will ask her permission to post here. I have sat in on enough inservices on bf and pumps that were non-promotional and not sponsored by a pump company and I have heard and read enough that I personally would never use a used pump or recommend one.
post #42 of 115
I'm currently shopping around for pumps on eBay. I've seen many that are used, but only a few times or new.
post #43 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyNanny View Post
I'm currently shopping around for pumps on eBay. I've seen many that are used, but only a few times or new.
If ypu go the the medela or ameda site and locate an IBCLC that rents and sells pumps, often you can get a better deal than at a retail store. A lot of IBCLC'S set their prices substantially lower, not to increase business but bc they know its a financial hardship for a mom a lot of times and its a way of helping.
post #44 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breastfeeding Insomniac View Post
Actually there have been, and from what I know the petition was started by a CLC who knew of a mom and baby who contacted a virus through a used pump. I have her story and will ask her permission to post here. ...
NAK. I look forward to hearing more info on this real life example. Too many people downplay this risk as speculative.
~Cath
post #45 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breastfeeding Insomniac View Post
If ypu go the the medela or ameda site and locate an IBCLC that rents and sells pumps, often you can get a better deal than at a retail store. A lot of IBCLC'S set their prices substantially lower, not to increase business but bc they know its a financial hardship for a mom a lot of times and its a way of helping.
Thanks!
post #46 of 115
I've never quite understood the idea of a breast pump not being sterile enough to pass on to another person, but it is sterile enough for me to use it over and over again. If I can't completely sterilize it, aren't there germs and bacteria in the thing that could possibly infect/reinfect me or the milk I'm pumping?

It seems a little silly to me. Either it's sterile enough to use or it's not regardless of who is using it.
post #47 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by brdudeon View Post
I've never quite understood the idea of a breast pump not being sterile enough to pass on to another person, but it is sterile enough for me to use it over and over again. If I can't completely sterilize it, aren't there germs and bacteria in the thing that could possibly infect/reinfect me or the milk I'm pumping?

It seems a little silly to me. Either it's sterile enough to use or it's not regardless of who is using it.
Once you get a virus, you build up immunity to it, so even though it might be circulating through your pump, neither you nor your baby will get it again. Thankfully, you don't need to worry about your own germs.
post #48 of 115
Still not getting it. If the virus can live inside the pump, wouldn't mold live there, too? If the milk is getting in there, along with the virus, it's getting old and growing rancid.

FWIW: I would never have considered a used PIS, because I followed the propaganda of the companys, but it still defies logic to me, for the reason brdudeon articulated.
post #49 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
Still not getting it. If the virus can live inside the pump, wouldn't mold live there, too? If the milk is getting in there, along with the virus, it's getting old and growing rancid.

FWIW: I would never have considered a used PIS, because I followed the propaganda of the companys, but it still defies logic to me, for the reason brdudeon articulated.
Yes, it can. And it started to in my pump. Imagine my shock when the inner membrane I thought I had cleaned started to turn a shade of green.
post #50 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirstenMary View Post
Yes, it can. And it started to in my pump. Imagine my shock when the inner membrane I thought I had cleaned started to turn a shade of green.
Ewwwww. Did you have the PIS and what did you do with it? Now I'm going to be forever paranoid and "seeing" things growing inside my pump.
post #51 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by brdudeon View Post
Ewwwww. Did you have the PIS and what did you do with it? Now I'm going to be forever paranoid and "seeing" things growing inside my pump.

It died a slow death, so I bought a new one. I cleaned it with alcohol, and the mold never came back, but I was worried about drying out the diaphram. I prayed it wouldn't crack, and thankfully, it didn't.
post #52 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirstenMary View Post
Yes, it can (grow mold). And it started to in my pump. Imagine my shock when the inner membrane I thought I had cleaned started to turn a shade of green.
KirstenMary,
NAK. Thanks for the real life story. I'm more glad than ever that I rigged a "closed system" Ameda hygeni-kit to fit my Medela PISA. I wouldn't rely on it to protect my DC from a deadly virus but I never got any condensation in my tubes, much less the mold my sister eventually got in her PIS tubes
~Cath
post #53 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
Still not getting it. If the virus can live inside the pump, wouldn't mold live there, too? If the milk is getting in there, along with the virus, it's getting old and growing rancid.

FWIW: I would never have considered a used PIS, because I followed the propaganda of the companys, but it still defies logic to me, for the reason brdudeon articulated.
Yes, I'd like to understand this better too. Even if I'm building immunity to my own germs, so to speak, I don't think you build much immunity against mold. Not only that, if that mold is getting into my pumped milk, it could hurt my baby, or make the milk spoil faster. What a waste! Maybe we should be petitioning these companies with open systems to close them for health reasons. I mean, what if I have thrush, and pump, and cure my thrush. Is that yeast still in my pump? Could I be unknowingly reinfecting myself, and thus my baby, with yeast again?
post #54 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Equuskia View Post
... if that mold is getting into my pumped milk, it could hurt my baby, or make the milk spoil faster. ... I mean, what if I have thrush, and pump, and cure my thrush. Is that yeast still in my pump? Could I be unknowingly reinfecting myself, and thus my baby, with yeast again?
Yes, you can re-infect yourself with thrush. Closed system pumps are available, all except one, are multiple user pumps and therefore more expensive. The other one is the Ameda Purely Yours with the closed system "hygenikit". It can be rigged to fit the Medela PIS or PISA.

As I noted I my previous post, I wouldn't rely on it to protect my DC from a deadly virus but I never got any condensation in my PISA tubes, much less the mold my sister eventually got in her PIS tubes.

~Cath
post #55 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breastfeeding Insomniac View Post
Actually there have been, and from what I know the petition was started by a CLC who knew of a mom and baby who contacted a virus through a used pump. I have her story and will ask her permission to post here. I have sat in on enough inservices on bf and pumps that were non-promotional and not sponsored by a pump company and I have heard and read enough that I personally would never use a used pump or recommend one.
I'd love to hear the story. I researched for weeks, before taking a PIS from a friend, and I couldn't find any study or even first person story that stated that something had been contracted from a used/borrowed pump. Of course I knew her medical history and was not worried about anything really anyway it was more intellectual curiosity. Also, I spoke with my friend who is a Lactation Consultant RN (She actually works with Thomas Hale as his research assistant and has breastfed both her children until 4) she said really it wouldn't be an issue as long as you replaced the phlanges and tubing and all the pieces that touch milk.
post #56 of 115
I contacted the writer of the petition, and have her petition to post. I will not share her name as she has not had an easy few days of being flamed. Anyway, here is an email from her:

"The reason why this issue is dear to my heart is that I have a friend that personally
bought a used breast pump online through eBay, and now has contracted a terrible virus.
Of course it was not maliciously done with a breast pump, and perhaps it was done
during her c-section or a hospital stay or other causes, but all signs lead to it being the
pump (the pumps motor was later tested, and tested positive for the virus). The pump
was distributed by a mass reselller of used breast pumps. Thankfully both mother and
baby are being treated and are doing okay. Sadly this mom will no longer be able to
breastfeed. When this mom did contact ebay, not to point fingers or place blame but just
to let them know, they were rude and condescending. That bothered me, when this mom
has suffered so much, and now the baby cannot breastfeed and suffers too.

My concern is this can happen to another mom & baby, and it could be worse. It could be
AIDS. While milk is NOT dangerous and not what I am worried about, it is the numerous
bacteria, viruses, diseases, and blood that can get trapped in the motor. So even if
tubing and flanges are replaced there can be problems.

There is also no way to know how long the pump was "really" used, if it is damaged at
all, And if the mom will use it correctly. There is no way to know if they sanitize it
correctly, or at all.

There was mention of not that many used pumps for sale on ebay. Search: Breast pumps,
breastpumps (one word) or breast pumps like new, or just simply medela breast pump or
purely yours breast pump. Some are even listed as opened breast pump, LN breast
pump. Most are not listed as "USED breast pump". I have absolutely no issue with BRAND
NEW, sealed pumps being sold online or anywhere. And perhaps sharing between sisters
or close friends could be considered safe if they can be tested first.

I worry about moms not being able to access breast pumps for a reasonable price as
well. That is why I am a breast pump rental station. I rent hospital grade pumps for a
very low price and often have payment plans. The personal pumps I do sell are reduced
drastically low. I lose money selling and renting pumps, but it is for a good cause so I
do not mind. There is also WIC for mothers that need a breast pump, and good news is
they get great lactation advice.

I encourage you to look at my petition, different than the one that was posted here. Read
the information I wrote. I have added some links and studies to look at on the right hand
side. Look at the signatures page and comments of many lactation professionals and
moms."

If you still feel the same way, then that is fine, but I wanted to give you more resources
and information since what I first posted was vague.
post #57 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breastfeeding Insomniac View Post
I contacted the writer of the petition, and have her petition to post. I will not share her name as she has not had an easy few days of being flamed.
Breastfeeding Insomniac,
She won't get any flames from me. I'd give her a standing ovation if I could.

I try to reply every time I see a post about used pumps for the very reasons she is concerned about and I can't believe the resistance I get. It's very common to get responses like "show me the study", "I've never heard of it happening", blah, blah, blah. What's really scary is the number of LCs that are anecdotally reported as saying used pumps are fine as long as the collection kits and accessories are replaced. Which is crazy, because those items can be sterilized, but the motor can't.

The depth and breadth of the wishful thinking and denial on this issue is scary.

To me it just seems like common sense that used pumps are potentially dangerous and yet the vast majority of nursing moms seem to see used pumps as a Lactivist issue ... because "used" means "affordable". And the pump manufacturers are scapegoated as corporate greed mongers. The Ebay petitioner and the mom whose cause she represents would seem to agree with me that safe pumps are the real Lactivist issue.

And the the pump manufacturers that make single user pumps that are a fraction of the cost of multi-user pumps are not the villains. I don't have any reason to believe that the pump manufacturers are price gouging. Anyone that can't pay --or doesn't want to pay-- $300.00 or so for a Medela PIS can get an Ameda PY under the Lansinoh name at Walmart for $150.00 or so, maybe less if they have the option of skipping the carry case. Medelas and Amedas can both be found for less online. If you put the Ameda on your charge card you could pay it off in about a year for about $12.50 a month or so, plus interest.

Perhaps the real villains are the original owners that try to defray their expense or perhaps it's everyone that blithely says used pumps are ok as long as you replace the collection kit and accessories.

I will repeat here what I have said numerous times elsewhere. The original pumping mom's milk --including any pathogens-- can get into the tubes and then travel into the motor. The motor becomes a moist environment to harbor any pathogens (deadly or otherwise, including Thrush); and the heat from the motor provides any warmth necessary for them to thrive. Any milk residue and pathogens can reverse direction and go back into the tubes and into the bottle (and therefore the milk of any subsequent pumping mom) &/or get on the hands of that mom and be transferred onto something that will then transfer the pathogens into her milk.

Completely lost in all of this is the very fundamental and pragmatic question of whether a used pump with a one year motor might undermine the supply of Exclusively Pumping and Working & Pumping moms. Even if the suction and speed are nearly at 100% when the subsequent mom starts using it how long do you think it will remain at 98% or 99%? Will it start to die just before a growth spurt? And how will the new mom know unless it is obvious?

It should be obvious that the real cost of an "affordable" used pump is potentially a compromised supply or --worse yet-- being infected with Thrush or a horrible virus.

If you are ever authorized to give more details I would be really interested in hearing them. Because until there are more concrete accounts of infected used pumps and moldy tubing (which gives a dramatic visual picture) then the information vacuum will reinforce the impression in the Lactivist community that used pumps are harmless.

Anywhoo ... JMO, for whatever that's worth.

~Cath
post #58 of 115
Hmmm... I'm just not that scared of used breastpumps for many of the reasons already mentioned. I have been using a used pump for a year- a PIS. I did sterilize everything I could before I used it.

Here's a question for those in the know: How long can viruses and bacteria live in the pump?? My understanding (maybe wrong) is that most viruses and bacteria that affect humans cannot survive for long periods of time outside of a human host.

For example, I know for a fact that my pump sat for at least a year unused between the last time the previous owner pumped and the first time I pumped.
post #59 of 115
CathMac - Bravo - You said what I have heard from IBCLC friends in the best way I have come across online to date.

marie1080 - If, after you become informed about an issue you choose to remain unimpressed it's your right.

Quote:
How long can viruses and bacteria live in the pump??
I don't believe that anyone is going to be able to give you a satisfactory answer to that question. I think what you may want to do is internalize that there is nothing super special about viruses/bacteria being *inside a body*. If the virus/bacteria is provided with a warm moist environment that meets its biological needs it can continue on indefinitely. That environment CAN occur in the pump housing of a breastpump. The length of time will vary depending on a variety of factors that no one can control for.

I have a little challenge for anyone who is not worried about using or lending/giving a used breastpump. Open it up and have a look inside before you do. Until you do that I don't really think you can make a fully informed decision regarding the safety or advisability of taking/lending a second-hand pump (and that doesn't even address the issue of the planned obsolescence of the motor). It seems to me that some may be stumbling mentally over the idea that because they can't see the potential junk inside the pump it isn't there and isn't a "real" concern.
post #60 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie1080 View Post
Hmmm... I'm just not that scared of used breastpumps for many of the reasons already mentioned. I have been using a used pump for a year- a PIS. I did sterilize everything I could before I used it.

Here's a question for those in the know: How long can viruses and bacteria live in the pump?? My understanding (maybe wrong) is that most viruses and bacteria that affect humans cannot survive for long periods of time outside of a human host.

For example, I know for a fact that my pump sat for at least a year unused between the last time the previous owner pumped and the first time I pumped.
marie1080,
How expensive do you suppose needles would have to be for a diabetic to consider using a 1 year old used needle that couldn't be completely sterilized?

The phrase "survive outside the human body" very likely assumes that the pathogen in question is on an open surface that is exposed to air and perhaps even light, which isn't the case with a needle or a pump motor.

That doesn't begin to answer the question of how long fungi (e.g: yeast), viruses, bacteria, etc. would survive in a moist, contained environment, at unknown temperatures. I don't think anyone has the answer to this question. Someone that rehabs the bathrooms of vacant properties might be able to make an educated guess based upon mold typically found in the nooks and crannies around the fixtures.

But if you think the information that "Breastfeeding Insomniac" got from the Ebay petitioner is accurate then the one thing we know for sure is that deadly viruses can survive in pump motors for at least a short period of time: a couple of weeks, a couple of months, several months? And how big would the margin for error need to be: a couple of weeks, a couple of months, several months ... before you are creeping up on a year?

At the risk of seeming like a hypocrite, the first pump I used belonged to my sister. Not only did I trust her because she's my sister but she was a nurse and she fully understood the importance of her medical history. She was one of the few people I would have accepted an unscreened blood donation from. If you are going to get a used pump, that should be the litmus test.

Additionally, the pump was almost 10 years old at the time. I think 10 years is more than enough time for any pathogens to die but I'm not sure about 6 months, or a year, or 366 days.

Knowing what I know now, especially having read about the infected Ebay pump, I'm not sure I would ever use a previously used pump again. Even if it came from someone I trusted or it hadn't been used in years. However remote the possibilty of infection it just isn't worth the severity of the consequences.

I should also note that even though my sister had only used it once a day for less than a year I believe it may have contributed to my supply issues with DD1. I didn't realize that the motor was probably sluggish until my supply was so low that I had to take any galactgogue I could get my hands on.

As a milk donor I held out for a mom that was willing to have my blood tested. Now that I'm nearing the end of my pumping career with DD2 I am considering whether I can give my current pump to a mom in good conscience. I can tell them that I am negative for anything a milk bank would test for but I have no idea how strong the motor is at this point. Those moms that need a pump the most would be better off getting a new one. Unless they have good reason to believe that they have a really strong supply.

~Cath
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