criminal code and UP? (UC illegal in Canada?) ***clarification post #9***

[moodymaximus]

DH who's been on board for a while, just called and said that the new hospital in town is really like home and birth rooms have jaccuzis:

because of the section in the criminal code which says something like if a woman fails to provide reasonable provisions for the birth of her child and an injury happens before, during, or after birth...imprisonment up to (?).

he says that unless we see a doctor for prenatal care we can't really prove that we didn't plan a UC. but if i do see someone for prenatal care, we can at least claim an ooops.

i've been really enjoying our UP, but a UC is much more important to me than not seeing someone for prenatal care.

any thoughts on the criminal code (it is canadian, not sure if there is an equivalent in the US)? how important is to document the prenatal care in some way?

note: there are no midwives where we are.

[Bekahsmom]

wow I have never heard of that???? This is my 2nd UP/UC

I would love to know where your DH found that, I am sure it is something my DH would like to read.

Robbie-Lynn

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by Bekahsmom

wow I have never heard of that???? This is my 2nd UP/UC

I would love to know where your DH found that, I am sure it is something my DH would like to read.

Robbie-Lynn

he found it right in the latest criminal code
i will ask for the section and the exact wording.

[moodymaximus]

haven't talked to DH yet, but here is a sme snippet i found by googling:


>>>Under the Canadian Criminal Code, many sections exist which state parents do have a legal duty to provide the necessities of life to their children (Byfield, 2002). Sections of the Code (such as Section 242, relating to the requirement to obtain assistance in childbirth and Section 238 (1), which makes a person culpable, if causing the death of a child in the act of birth) also exist that give special attention to childbirth and the vulnerability in the health and delivery of babies and children.<<<

whoah!!!! requirement to obtain assistance in childbirth???? :

[rmzbm]

WOW, interesting - news to me. Scary.

[kittywitty]

Wow. How scary!

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by rmzbm

WOW, interesting - news to me. Scary.

U***freaking scary!*** everywhere i had asked, all i heard that UC was legal. now what? doesn't look like it at all. :

[Bekahsmom]

Hmmmm wow. I am not even sure what to think about this. I think that I need time to digest.

all I can say right now is that is freakn scary.:

[moodymaximus]

okay, found the section on-line:

>>>Neglect to obtain assistance in child-birth
242. A female person who, being pregnant and about to be delivered, with intent that the child shall not live or with intent to conceal the birth of the child, fails to make provision for reasonable assistance in respect of her delivery is, if the child is permanently injured as a result thereof or dies immediately before, during or in a short time after birth, as a result thereof, guilty of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.<<<

i think the point that DH was trying to make was that if we do not have prenatal care established, we can't prove that we didn't intend to conceal the birth of a child. :

ETA: can the intent not to conceal the child be proven more "casually"? for example, my friends know about my pregnancy. i just purchased a rather expensive didy? wold this be admissible as evidence?

what do you mamas think of this?

[Bekahsmom]

Well that is better. I wonder if the fact that other people in your life know that you are pregnant would prove that you did not intend to hide the birth? I have gone to my family dr. last time and this time to confirm pregnancy just so that I have a record that I told "them" that I was pregnant.

Also if God forbid something did go wrong, I would seek medical help ie call 911 and therefore I would be seeking medical assistance.

Thank you so much for bringing this up it is definitely food for thought.

Robbie-Lynn

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by Bekahsmom

Well that is better. I wonder if the fact that other people in your life know that you are pregnant would prove that you did not intend to hide the birth? I have gone to my family dr. last time and this time to confirm pregnancy just so that I have a record that I told "them" that I was pregnant.

Also if God forbid something did go wrong, I would seek medical help ie call 911 and therefore I would be seeking medical assistance.

Thank you so much for bringing this up it is definitely food for thought.

Robbie-Lynn

i haven't confirmed my pregnancy with a doctor, but my friends do know, of course, and one of the local MDs knows informally as well.

my point to DH exactly: if god forbid something where to go wrong, we'd be on our way to the hospital right away.

i agree, the clarification makes more sense and i'm not as freaking out, and i will be discussin it with him at length, of course.

now the question is, with the above clarification, would you go for prenatal care or not? my discomfort with the prenatal care is that i will likely have to lie, when asked about my birth plan. any dr here is likely to talk about our wonderful new birth unit, and i can't imagine sitting through this with a straight face. and more importantly, i want to remain in tune with my body, and any prenatal appointment might turn into something negative, even if slightly, as i will need to defend my choices about vitamin K, for example.

[Irishmommy]

Originally Posted by moodymaximus

haven't talked to DH yet, but here is a sme snippet i found by googling:


>>>Under the Canadian Criminal Code, many sections exist which state parents do have a legal duty to provide the necessities of life to their children (Byfield, 2002). Sections of the Code (such as Section 242, relating to the requirement to obtain assistance in childbirth and Section 238 (1), which makes a person culpable, if causing the death of a child in the act of birth) also exist that give special attention to childbirth and the vulnerability in the health and delivery of babies and children.<<<

whoah!!!! requirement to obtain assistance in childbirth???? :

I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't the first bolded bit be satisfied by your dh being there?

And does the second one include the doctor?

[Bekahsmom]

Well for me, I have chosen no prenatal care. I agree with you I would have to lie (which I am not good at). Plus it is a major hassle for me to drag all of my kiddos to dr apts where I will be weighed, measured and get to pee on a stick; all things I can do at home. I will be having a u/s (non medical) at the end of the month because we suspect that I may have 2 babies in here but I am not worrying about that yet.

I think that for the legality of it you would just have to prove that you intended to keep the baby alive and well. That would not be very hard if the people around you know that you are pregnant.

I hope that you and your DH have a good discussion and that you can come up with what will work for both of you.

Robbie-Lynn

[Ruthla]

It sounds to me like it's only illegal to hide a pg and birth if you're planning to kill the baby at birth and pretend you were never pregnant. I'm not quite sure why they have this as a separate offence from homocide though- maybe to clarify that it's still a crime even if the baby is born dead and no attempt is made to revive the baby or they can't prove if the baby was born dead or alive?

Even if you're "concealing the birth" itself, by presenting to the world that you have a new baby, the fact of the birth isnt' being concealed anymore. I don't think that a planned UC, with the intention of having a healthy baby and the willingness to seek medical care if necessary, is the subject of this law.

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

It sounds to me like it's only illegal to hide a pg and birth if you're planning to kill the baby at birth and pretend you were never pregnant. I'm not quite sure why they have this as a separate offence from homocide though- maybe to clarify that it's still a crime even if the baby is born dead and no attempt is made to revive the baby or they can't prove if the baby was born dead or alive?

Even if you're "concealing the birth" itself, by presenting to the world that you have a new baby, the fact of the birth isnt' being concealed anymore. I don't think that a planned UC, with the intention of having a healthy baby and the willingness to seek medical care if necessary, is the subject of this law.

sounds right to me. DH is worried in case something is wrong with the baby. but we are clearly not concealing anything--i mean he already signed up for parental leave at work!

i think he's over-reacting a bit--his normal worries about the health of the baby got transfered into the legal issues.

i'm glad i posted, as i will be able to surprise him with my apt interpretation of the criminal code when he comes home!

[Couz]

Any coroner can easily differentiate if a baby was born dead or alive.

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by Bekahsmom

I think that for the legality of it you would just have to prove that you intended to keep the baby alive and well. That would not be very hard if the people around you know that you are pregnant.

exactly.

I hope that you and your DH have a good discussion and that you can come up with what will work for both of you.

Robbie-Lynn

thanks! i hope we will.

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by Couz

Any coroner can easily differentiate if a baby was born dead or alive.

ugh, i'm involved in a "morbid" thread again

but doesn't the section specify "before birth" as well?

[moodymaximus]

Originally Posted by Irishmommy

I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't the first bolded bit be satisfied by your dh being there?

And does the second one include the doctor?

i'm not sure one's partner is "adequate provisions for the birth", in the eyes of the mainstream, i mean.

for the second one, you mean that one would contact a doctor in case of an emergency?

[rmzbm]

Yeah, what Ruthla said sounds right.