DDs stealing things - please help - how to handle without being punitive?

[Mommiska]

I am at my wit's end with this...I could really do with some perspective and/or advice. I do believe that ultimately punishment isn't helpful and can be counter-productive, but I'm really struggling with knowing how to handle this issue.

My two older dds (ages 8 and 6.5) have, in the past, taken sweets/chocolates from their Dad's stuff (I don't tend to buy junk very much), when they know they shouldn't. They've hidden it and eaten it, etc, etc.

We thought maybe we were too controlling/restrictive with food. So we instituted a 'sweet for the week' - over the weekend, I take all the kids to the grocery store, and they each get to pick out their 'sweet for the week' (which usually ended up being a pack of 8-10 small, fun-size chocolate bars for each kid).

They had control over this - they kept it in the kitchen (each has their own box), but they could have a piece whenever they wanted until it was gone (with encouragement to have it after meals!). We hoped that a bit more control over food would help.

It seemed to for a bit, but today I found that dd2 (6 years old) had taken a bag of chocolate coins & a bag of chocolate chips and eaten them (I found the wrappers for the coins under her bed; the chocolate chips weren't all gone - they were in her backpack).

DD1 (8 years old) had taken a box of marshmallows & some M&M type candy, as well as 6 books from the Christmas presents hidden in my room. Most of the candy was gone, and she's already read all of the books.

She said that she knew they were for Christmas, but she thought I'd discover what she'd done on Christmas day and not confront her about it until the day after Christmas (so I didn't spoil Christmas for her), so she just took everything.

I was in tears talking with her about it, trying to understand where she was coming from/what she thought about stealing/etc. (My 6 year old seemed to show more genuine remorse). I think the 8 year old was only sorry that she got caught.

I really, really don't know what to do about this. When dh and I asked the girls how we could help them to make the choice NOT to steal, they suggested various punishments (they don't get marshmallows on Christmas day, they can't use the computer for a week, etc). So we did talk about how punishments just made them feel badly about being caught, but didn't actually stop them from stealing in the first place, which is what needed to happen.

We did go through with them and get them to verbalise why stealing is wrong (it takes from other people, makes them sad/upset, isn't fair to the other person, etc) - they did seem hazy on that at first (although they knew that stealing would get them a 'let's sit down and talk about this' session with dh and I).

How would anyone here handle this? We've considered stopping the 'sweet for the week', but that seems punitive now that we've instituted it. Both girls have agreed to pay for the sweets they took (the 6 year old on her own, the 8 year old with prompting).

Please help - this really breaks my heart.

[nextcommercial]

Are they stealing from you or the store?

Is it just their christmas presents they are going through? <--cuz I have the answer to that one.

[heidirk]

For the DD who stole the books, I probably would not give them to her for christmas. I would tell her since she's read them already she can donate them to the library. It's really hard to enforce the consequences of stealing without being even the tiniest bit punitive. I think that's because the consequences of taking something that's not your, or not yours yet, are largely shameful. As a former thief I can tell you what my mother did that was quite effective, she went back with me to give it back! I had to do it, she didn't do it for me, and I had to explain myself. This was in a store.
If we used or ate something that belonged to someone else, something of ours was given away. The point was that when you steal, someone else misses out, so you pay the 'debt' to balance things out. I doin't know if this helps, it may even sound incredibly uncivilised to you; but here it is, for what it's worth.

[sebandg'smama]

As someone with a sweet tooth, it is next to impossible for me to not eat the chocolate if it is in the house. When I was a child I would search the house looking for the chocolate my mom had hidden, I would not rest until I found it. Once I found some in the medicine cabinet...didn't taste very good, but I still ate the "chocolate".

If the chocolate that they are taking is your dh's, could he find a place where it is out of sight of your dds? Because I think that that can be just too hard, even tho they are able to buy some of their own, the "forbidden fruit" is just too big of a temptation.

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

Are they stealing from you or the store?

Is it just their christmas presents they are going through? <--cuz I have the answer to that one.

They are stealing from us - as far as I know, they have never stolen from a store. It was Christmas presents dd1 took (dd2 wasn't in the Christmas presents - the chocolate she took was from the kitchen).

I once caught dd1 putting some candy in her pocket at the store when she was about 6 years old, I'd guess (2 years ago) - we put it back immediately and talked about how if she'd taken it, she would have had to take it back to the lady at the counter, say why she'd taken it, apologise and give it back. I do think that has convinced her not to take from stores! And I keep a close eye on her when we are out, but I do pretty much trust when out.

Heidirk - we have done the taking away candy to give back to the person she stole candy from, and that hasn't seemed to make a difference. Is it just a long-term thing?

Sebandg'smama - my dh has half-serious talked about buying a safe to put candy in! We've tried putting it in the most inaccessible places we can find - but dd1, especially, always seems to find it (sigh).

[Twocoolboys]

I think it's two different issues.

First there is the 8 year old snooping and getting into Christmas presents. I think it's very normal for kids to snoop for presents, especially when they get older. She is still young enough to not have the impulse control to leave the presents where she found them. I remember snooping when I was a kid. I think that just means that it's time for you to find a better hiding place for presents.

The other issue is the off-limits candy that the 6 year old is taking. I really hesitate to call it stealing. She is taking food that is in her own home. I cannot wrap my mind around why this would be called "stealing". That seems harsh. If the candy cannot be hidden somewhere out of reach and out of sight, then I think maybe the rules should be loosened. Why not let the girls have access to it? Why does it just have to be your dh's and no one else's? If it's because you don't want your girls to eat that kind of food, then maybe your dh should buy and eat his treats when he is not home. It is very hard for kids to resist candy that they know is there. I think this will set up food issues. Why not just make a rule that they have to ask first, but when they do ask, the answer is yes?

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by Twocoolboys

The other issue is the off-limits candy that the 6 year old is taking. I really hesitate to call it stealing. She is taking food that is in her own home. I cannot wrap my mind around why this would be called "stealing". That seems harsh. If the candy cannot be hidden somewhere out of reach and out of sight, then I think maybe the rules should be loosened. Why not let the girls have access to it? Why does it just have to be your dh's and no one else's? If it's because you don't want your girls to eat that kind of food, then maybe your dh should buy and eat his treats when he is not home. It is very hard for kids to resist candy that they know is there. I think this will set up food issues. Why not just make a rule that they have to ask first, but when they do ask, the answer is yes?

: to all of this - if it's in their home, and it's a consumable anyway, I have a hard time calling it stealing, too. Didn't we have a thread with exactly the same issue a while ago, a kid taking food without asking? I have to see if I can find it. Food, IMO, is way different than other "stuff" that a kid could be taking.


ETA: Yup, here's the old thread - http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=stealing

[heidirk]

Mommiska,
It has to be a consistent message over the long term yes. Maybe to brign the point home you could require her to spend her own money(assuming she has any?) to repalce what was eaten/taken? The poitn is that when we steal, everyone ends up with less.

I think it is important to distinguish certain things even in the home, and even (some) foods as belonging to someone exclusively. I beleive it teaches healthy respect for property. But it also teaches self worth because 'something can belong to me and be valuable just because I say so' . Psychologically it's important to know that I have a right to retain my own property/body/mind/ideas, etc. By the time we were in Jr high, My mom could leave money or anything laying around and know it'd be there when she got back. I remember specifically a twenty dollar bill laying around for months and noone touched it. I think eventually we'd forgotten whose it was! I'm not suremy mom didn't do that to test us though!

[Mommiska]

Thanks for all the input!

I agree to a certain extent about snooping to find Christmas presents - I realised a bit earlier that she'd been into those and seen some things, and knew I needed a better hiding place - but then I realised that she'd taken things from the Christmas presents...and I do think that that is an entirely different story.

DD1 was definitely aware of the fact that she was taking things she shouldn't be taking. I mean, she'd thought it through enough to reason that it would be ages before I'd figure out, and then I wouldn't get upset with her becuase it would be Christmas day!

As for dd2 - the chocolate coins she took were from my Traidcraft things - I just got a new order in (I buy fairly traded items from Traidcraft, then sell them at the church) and she took the chocolate coins from there.

I do normally any Traidcraft chocolate directly to the church to store it there (so there isn't the temptation) - but this order just arrived earlier this week.

Again, though, DD2 knew that this was Traidcraft chocolate and that it doesn't belong to me, even, but belongs to the church and needs to be sold to be paid for.

I guess all of that to say that I do consider what the two girls did to be stealing (although I agree that sneaking candy is a different issue).

Must go - company coming over...will write more later, but just wanted to clarify...

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by sebandg'smama

As someone with a sweet tooth, it is next to impossible for me to not eat the chocolate if it is in the house.

:
Keeping sweets within children's reach, expecting them not to eat them AND calling it stealing is not fair for the children jmo.

[heartmama]

I do think it's important, very important, to build up enough trust and honestly between family members that there is no desire to be "sneaky". I would feel very unhappy if I thought ds was putting lots of time and effort into "sneaking" around me to get something in the house. I agree there is a level of personal responsibility that can be expected of a 6 and 8 year old in terms of bringing their concerns openly to parents, and resisting the desire to take the easy way and sneak. So I am not minimizing your desire to have children who are honest with you, because that is a top priority for me as well.

You have clearly raised your children to feel loved and safe enough in your home to feel confident trying to "sneak" (some children live with such fear, they wouldn't even attempt it!).

However, I also think we are talking about *candy*. I think it's very unhealthy to have delicious candy in the home and lay down a strict rule that children may not have it. I believe it sets them up to fail. Even if they have their own candy--nothing could be more exotic than candy forbidden to children and kept only for grown ups!

Candy is the domain of children. It means more to most children than money! There is a *strong* association in stories, media, society etc. that says candy=childhood. It is entirely possible that your children do not, on a fundamental level, accept the assertion that the candy is not for them. They love you and want to believe, it, but they just don't. It would be like your husband keeping My Little Ponies on his shelf and insisting they were his, and not for the kids. Poor daddy, he doesn't know how sad ponies are who have to stay on the shelf! Better "rescue" those ponies when he isn't looking....

I know that sounds funny to say, but have you read Tom Sawyer? Here is a book written about children who lived almost 200 years ago. The author writes these thoughts from inside of Tom's head:

"It was conscience. They begin to feel a vague fear that they had been doing wrong to run away; and next they thought of the stolen meat, and then the real torture came. They tried to argue it away by reminding conscience that they had purloined sweetmeats and applies scores of times; but conscious was not to be appeased by such thin plausibilities. It seemed to them, in the end, that there was no getting around the stubborn fact that taking sweetmeats was only 'hooking' while taking bacon and ham and such valuables was plain, simple stealing--and there was a command against that in the Bible".

There seems to be something genetically encoded in little kids where candy is concerned. Your kids have accepted no stealing from stores only because the consequences are so terrible and dire. But candy in their own home? Every day? To much to live with, I'd say.

If this were my situation I would simply say "This candy is a special favorite that I like to save as a treat for myself. If you'd like a piece just ask me. If you forget to ask and take one please tell me afterwards. I don't want to go get a piece and find they are all gone. That would really upset me. Could you help me with that?".

Set some boundaries that are win-win here. Set a boundary that brings you closer together--not one that puts candy in the middle, kwim?

[paphia]

I think talking about it with your dds is good. I know that for me, right now in my dd's development, my reaction is to prevent this from happening again by

1. Having more treats in the house that she would enjoy eating. Right now we have a can of whipped cream in the fridge and dd asks for it five times a day and I let her have a little lick from a spoon, and give her more until she stops asking. She never eats much. She also asked for ice cream (we always have some in the freezer) and took one taste and was done. Some days she really wants to eat three pieces of chocolate, other days she will ask for it, take one bite, and give it back. DD is 17 mo.

We don't restrict any food in the house. If it's something she can't have (like liquor I guess) it's locked up or not in the house. Giving them one treat a day is still controlling their food. I can only imagine having something I really wanted being rationed like that would make me want it even more than if I never got it at all. There are healthy ways to have sweets around (fresh fruit, healthy cookies or bars, popcorn with a tiny amount of sugar on it, etc.) You just have to find a variety of things to keep on hand that are suitable to your family's food values until there are enough "good" choices for your dds to choose from that they're not climbing into the cupboards trying to find that 8 year old jar of molasses you'd forgotten about just to satisfy a sweets craving. My mom never kept enough healthy snacks in the house (or any really, otherwise she'd sit on the couch and eat them) and I was always hungry for something, could never find anything, and while I was a child always tried to sneak a spoonful of frosting, a handful of marshmallows or chocolate chips. I hoped mom wouldn't notice the cookie sprinkles slowly disappearing, etc. Keep some treats around that are freely available without limits. Your kids might surprise you with their healthy food choices if you give them the chance to choose for themselves.

2. Having more items-of-interest around the house for my child to "discover". At this age, my dd loves getting into new things and finding new toys. I don't think that goes away. If your dd had blown through a stack of new books, maybe she needs more trips to the library, or needs to be parts of a book-trading ring or something where she is getting new "surprises" in her life on a regular basis so the temptation isn't there when it comes to taking what she knows she shouldn't have. Maybe you can create an activity chest where you randomly put new things - books, brain teaser puzzles, balls of yarn and other crafts, stickers, play dough. That way the "fun" isn't limited to special occasions that are too far away to be patient for.

I really don't have the btdt advice that you are looking for. It's just that all the best behavioral advice I've found focuses on meeting our kids' needs. If there is a behavior that doesn't seem right, and our child can't express what need isn't being met, it's our job as parents to try and figure it out. I think that as children get older, they get better at expressing their needs, but even as adults we sometimes acts out in inappropriate ways without realizing it's because we're missing something in our lives. So it's unrealistic to just expect that there is something you can say to your child that will cause their behavior to comply with your expectations. Some other change must be made so everyone is getting their needs met. I hope it's a simple couple of changes for you and that your girls stop taking what isn't theirs!

[lexbeach]

Well that sounds like a lot of candy for anyone to be eating every week, IMO. Chocolate is totally addictive, and if I were you I would try to cut it out all together for a while--not in a restrictive way, just in a "we're making healthier choices" way (and have plenty of non-chocolate, non-refined sugar treats around that can be eaten anytime). I mean, my kids are only 4, but if they were eating that much chocolate, I'm guessing I'd be dealing with a ton of behavioral issues. I know that if I ever eat chocolate a couple of days in a row, I really *crave* it on the third day.

Anything that I really don't want my kids to get into (important papers, presents, tools), we keep in our office, which is locked (with a hook-and-eye at the very top of the door). Kids are curious, and I don't think it would be fair for me to expect them to stay out of that room just because I said so. The lock means we don't have to worry about it.

We did have some struggles with one ds taking things that belonged to dw and me this past summer. He kept taking binders because he wanted to play office. We ended up getting him some of his own binders, and reminding him that he needed to ask us before taking things of ours. He also took some things home from school (some polished rocks). We made him bring them back and hand them to his teacher. He never did it again.

HTH!

Lex

[Mommiska]

It's really interesting and helpful to read everyone's thoughts on this issue - I really appreciate it! It helps me to think through out own philosophy about food/the kids/taking without asking/etc.

I think the tension for me has always been between 1) the fear of giving my kids a food complex by completely controlling everything they eat and not giving them any control/choice over 'sweets/junk' and 2) my kids eating way too many sweets/junk than is good for them because they have so much control.

Some of that has come up in various responses as well.

In general, I don't have much in the way of 'junk' food in the house. DH did, and we could see that caused problems (kids sneaking it, etc), so we decided that it wasn't fair just for dh to have treats and the kids to be denied them, so we started our 'sweet for the week'. DH gets his treats at the same time, and it is spelled out that their sweets are theirs, and dhs are dhs.

I do think that, at 6.5 and 8 years old, they are old enough to understand that if they don't want people taking their candy/chocolate (and they don't!), they are not to take candy/chocolate that belongs to other people.

I guess I disagree that they should be allowed access to any and all sweet food in the house, while at the same time they are clear that other people are not to touch their things. In this scenario, how would kids learn any kind of boundaries?

It's also impractical. I've bought lots of chocolate treats/etc to give out to various teachers/etc. If the kids are allowed to just take whatever chocolate they find in the house, I would have to run to the shop just before I needed another gift to give out - something I can't do. The kids need to know that if something is not theirs, they can't just take it - that's wrong, hurts other people, makes life difficult for other people, etc.

And none of this candy/chocolate is left lying out where it is easy to find. They have had to search through cupboards (pulling out chairs to get into upper cupboards/etc) to find most of this stuff.

I always have lots of fruit (fresh and dried) in the house that the kids are welcome to eat. They know where the bread/cheese/yoghurts/etc are, and they are welcome to eat those whenever they want. I offer snacks on a regular basis as well, to make sure they are not hungry. And their own candy is available to them, and they get to chose when they have it - so that is not controlled. My kids do make good food choices (they'll eat satsumas non-stop at the moment!), but they also do this taking food that they know does not belong to them. I can see that the issues may be related, but I do think they are somewhat separate, as the girls both also help themselves to a variety of healthy food from the kitchen throughout the day.

I really do get the issue about overly controlling children's food and causing issues later on. We've taken lots of steps to try to prevent this (and the kids go out regularly to parties/activities/church/etc where they have access to different cookies/candy/junk food, and I have taken a step back from that and while we try to redirect if they are eating too much, they are generally in charge of what they eat).

All of that to say - my kids eat more 'junk' food than I personally am thrilled with, and certainly enough that you couldn't call them sugar-deprived by any stretch of the imagination. And they have a reasonable amount of control over the sugar that they eat.

I guess it is really my oldest dd's behaviour I was most concerned about - taking the Christmas presents in a very calculating manner and then only being sorry that she'd been caught (and not seeming to see what she'd done as 'wrong' or being sorry that she'd hurt me by taking the presents/candy).

Thanks, Paphia, for the reminder about meeting the girls needs to stop unhealthy behaviour. I know that, but I'll need to think about it some more with respect to this particular issue, definitely...

[funkygranolamama]

I did the same thing as a child. We had a fundraiser selling candy and some of the candy a neighbor ordered was never delivered. It was peanut butter clusters which I LOVED but rarely got. There was a little piece of red tape that sealed the bag of these delicious candies. I ate down to I think 2 or 3 of them then taped it back up with white masking tape. I turned it back into the school and said the neighbors didn't buy it (This was before they required money up front). I got called to the office and got in trouble. I had to pay for the missing candy.

I think I did this because I wasn't allowed to have things like that. I was given candy once in awhile and free reign on little debbies, but actual candy wasn't bought often. There was alot of control issues, like I couldn't have it because it was what I was asking for type thing. I have serious issues with eating right now.

[heartmama]

Mommiska you are doing a great job of trying to think this out and not get on the defensive. Not always easy when it's your own family being discussed.

I think what many here are saying is that for whatever reason, your kids are telling you the situation is not one in which they are succeeding to meet your expectations. So even though it seems like you are being more than fair, the result is telling you that the kids are not processing this the way you wish they would.

Also, many are reading this and thinking "I would do the same thing as a kid/my kids do the same thing". I really cannot overstate the fact that to me, the "stuff involved" is candy and Christmas presents. Of all things to have in the house, these two top the list of items that parents *really* struggle to keep out of kids hands. Kids who are otherwise cooperative and agreeable. They lose it around temptations like candy and Christmas presents.

And it isn't like your kids tore into all the gifts and had a free for all, or took every last bit of candy with cold indifference. It sounds like they sheepishly did these things hoping no one would find out, and were embarrassed to get caught. I don't think I'd expect any kid to feel really profound regret in this situation. Apologetic at best, but not truly sorry for opening *their own present*. Or eating candy in the house.

I think you've just stumbled into situations that by their nature have shades of grey. It takes extra patience and understanding to deal with this stuff.

[lexbeach]

One year I snooped around and found and looked at the christmas presents (which were hidden in the basement). My mom never found out (at least, I don't think she did!). But knowing ahead of time what all my presents would be, and thus not getting to take part in the surprise of christmas morning was enough of a "logical consequence" for me to never want to do it again.

I would wrap up the books and give them to your dd for Christmas. I am guessing that that disappointment (opening up books that she's already read), will be enough to keep her from ever wanting to take her Christmas presents ahead of time again.

And while I can understand not wanting to create food issues by restricting sweets/junk food, I still think that in this type of situation, where cravings for sweets are causing your kids to sneak around and find it, even when they know it's "not allowed," that getting rid of ALL the candy/junk in the house is the best plan. We give plants to teachers as gifts (often sprouts from our own plants). I grew up without candy/junk in the house and really don't have any food issues about it today. I never restrict what my kids eat when we're out and about at friends' houses (with the exception of artifical coloring, which we don't often come across), and they still don't really like most sweet food. Eating sugar and chocolate really does make your body crave it, whereas when you're not eating it, you don't crave it.

HTH!

Lex

[Mommiska]

Thanks, Heartmama and Lexbeach - perhaps one of the things I needed was a little perspective!

The whole sneaking sweets thing is something I find difficult to understand, as I am not a candy person and wasn't even as a child (I remember keeping all of my Halloween candy in a bag in the closet - it would last for ages. I still had most of it left when Christmas rolled around...).

I do really struggle with the issue of how best to deal with sweets with the kids. My instinct is to get it out of the house completely and not have it around at all. But my dh is not on board with that (and he works from home for the most part, so it isn't as if he can go eat his junk food elsewhere. He doesn't eat it in front of the kids, and it is hidden - they do have a knack for finding it, though!).

But that said - what we have in the house is dhs chocolate, the occasional bag of chocolate chips for cooking - and then the kids now get their sweet for the week. The stuff the kids stole is stuff we usually would not have around.

I dont know...will need to think about this some more. I was very upset with dd1s seeming lack of conscience, but perhaps that is me over-reacting and feeling like a horrible mum.

I do think the idea of wrapping up the presents and giving them to dd1 is a good idea - thats kind of what I had thought about doing. There were 6 books she took - 3 for her, and 3 for her sister. I was thinking I would give them all to her and then buy her sister something else...thats no fun, I would imagine.

So hard to deal with these issues with your own kids, I think...at least, I am finding that!

[heidirk]

Being upset with dd for not being uncomfortable haven taken somethign she knew wasn't hers does NOT make you a horrible overreacting mum.
Part of taking your place in society is learning what's appropriate and what's not.

I beleive however that I'm a bit hard-nosed for this forum!

thanks to all for tolerating me!

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by heidirk

Being upset with dd for not being uncomfortable haven taken somethign she knew wasn't hers does NOT make you a horrible overreacting mum.
Part of taking your place in society is learning what's appropriate and what's not.

I beleive however that I'm a bit hard-nosed for this forum!

thanks to all for tolerating me!

I'm glad we talked it all out with both dds...including talking about how their actions impacted other people, etc. I agree with you that they need to learn what is appropriate and what isn't, and I want them to be motivated to do the right thing by concern for others/etc, and not just by being afraid of being 'caught' and punished...

I did want to say about the issue of completely removing sweets from the house...I was telling my dh about this thread, and he reminded me why he is against that idea:

His Dad was severely diabetic all of dh's life (his Dad died when dh was 17 of complications resulting from his diabetes). Both of dh's Dad's siblings were also severely diabetic (and both died young due to their diabetes).

Because of this, dh's Mum was extremely limiting in the amount of sugar dh and his sister were allowed to have (i.e., next to nothing - they just didn't have candy/chocolate in the house, except what his Dad needed to carry in case of hypoglycemia).

And both dh and his sister have MAJOR problems with sugar/chocolate. DH craves chocolate and has a hard time going without it. And his sister regularly sits down and eats whole bags of candy (yuck).

So from his point of view, completely cutting out sweets/chocolate has had a really negative impact on his adult eating habits/cravings (at least, he believes it has - as does his sister). So he's reluctant to go that route with our kids...