Tell me about the social dynamics of your 5th graders classroom (long)

[LaLaLuna]

I am asking because I'd like to get an idea of what it is like for other 5th graders out there.

(warning- rant ahead)
My son has been going to a charter school since kindergarten; it is modelled on Waldorf/Steiner philosophy but as it still has to meet state benchmarks it is a little bit of a hybrid. He has been with more or less the same bunch of kids for 6 years now. He has a few particular friends in the class but because he has ASD, he's socially not as advanced as most of the kids. he is VERY bright and I think that academically he's right up there or even a little ahead of his peers.

My concern is that the social dynamic of this class just stinks. And it has since 1st grade. There are a LOT of really strong personalities and over the last few years I've seen it deteriorate further and further. It's mostly been with the girls (and quite a ridiculous number of girls have dropped out of this class along the way) and with them this year it's gotten downright ugly. Really quickly shifting alliances, cliques, bullying, etc. And now a few of the boys seem to be going that route, whether in response to the energy the girls bring to the classroom or external things.. I don't know. Things that have concerned me in the past are now escalating to the point that i am wondering if I should pull my son out and send him elsewhere. (god only knows where) It wrenches my heart to even think this; the school at large is an awesome community, the teachers for the most part are fabulous. The teacher this year seems out of her depth; and unfortunately, this was the case the two previous years as well (a teacher who left the school due to health and financial reasons).

My son told me he feels bullied and mocked by some of the girls, that the kids are focussed on who's more popular and that he's really stressed out by the classmate scene these days. He's not getting what he needs from the teacher - his IEP isn't being met at all. I see that a LOT of the kids are really stressed out. The school has the counselor going and meeting with the girls, there have been a number of one on one meetings with families of the girls- the school and many of the involved parents are trying to address the problem but I'm losing heart that things will change in any positive way. I volunteer in the classroom as often as I can and have observed a lot of this behavior- at times it's shocking and frequently it's very subtle and sneaky.

Is 5th grade always this stressful? Is this way way outside the norm? I don't know if i should hang in there and hope things ease up (except I kind of feel like that is what we've been doing the last two years) or if I should start looking at other, mainstream schools.

Advice, feedback... anything please!

[chiromamma]

My older kids went to a public waldorf type school for 2 years. I had a very similar experience to the one you are describing. Academics at the school were not up to par, although the teachers were lovely folks.
DD's 5th grade class seemed socially precocious and had lots of dysfunctional relationships in the classroom...kid to kid and teacher to kid. Much of it , I think had to do with the ultra permissive parents that were drawn to the school. The school would try to create boundaries for the kids and get very little real back up from the parents.
She made it through OK. In hindsight, I should have pulled her out. (Long story of a burnt out homeschooling mom)
I pulled DS out at the end of 3rd grade. He's doing well in a public IB school.
The big difference I see socially is that the IB school has real character development built into the curriculum. The IB school's academic goals are above the district's standards and that's great. I also see the benefits of NOT looping with a class...fresh perspective on the children, not needing to reinvent the wheel each year in terms of curriculum. This leaves the teacher free to innovate the existing curriculum and see classroom dynamics differently than s/he would with the same group year after year.
My advice? Pull him out if you feel the situation is beyond repair. Homeschool if you can. Find a private school and get financial aid if you need it.
DD is in private school and I can't wait to get DS out of the publiuc school system. There's just so much that's wrong with the public schools in my town...even the good ones.

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To me, this sounds normal. Kids have their pecking order by about 4th grade. Kids don't like you just because you live close to them, or walk the same way home anymore. By 4th-5th grade, it's all about the social status.

Some groups are worse than others. Ask any teacher and she will tell you that some years have a great bunch of kids, and others have a bad group.

Then, the teachers play an important role in how kids treat each other. But by now, the damage may most likely be done.

When my dd was is 4th grade, the teacher dubbed her Popular kids the "Chocrane Crew". She made it blindinly obvious who were her favorites. In fifth grade, she moved up (or looped) and wanted her same class as in 4th grade. I refused. I said "anybody else but Mrs C". I was secretly hoping for Mrs S. They put her in Mrs S class. Mrs S worked the whole year on making her ENTIRE class one cohesive group. They did a circle time every day. They discussed how to treat each other, they talked about how things feel.. it was a wonderful experience. NOBODY picked on any child in that class without the entire class to back them up. Their classmates never picked on kids from other classes either. Mrs S class won the Good Sportsmanship award and the good citizenship award every year.

Unfortunatly it doesn't last. Girls are mean. I know someone here will say "That is sexist" but, it's true. Girls can be very cruel.

I don't think school got much better for my daughter until high school. Everybody seems to find their niche in high school.

[chiromamma]

Girls are mean. Everyone can be mean.
In her book Mother Daughter Wisdom, Christiane Northrup discusses how crippling and unfair to girls these types of attitudes can be and how important it is that parents and other adults (like Mrs S) teach our children compassion and help them gain emotional intelligence. I refuse to believe that girls are mean, or harder to raise than boys even in the thick of a very negative phase with my daughter.

[LaLaLuna]

I think in this situation, it transcends individuals. I know that most people have the capacity to be mean; I would say that every single one of these girls (with the exception of one who thankfully transferred to another school 2 years ago) are kind and loving children on an individual basis. It's something about the group dynamic that is really starting to feel poisonous to me.

Chiromamma, the situation you describe could describe our school perfectly. The looping two grades worked pretty well up until now- but having just come from somewhat chaotic two years and then feeling like we've got to get through two MORE years... without the outstanding support he got from the teacher last year...it makes me feel really anxious that all the progress ds has made will get lost.

What is an IB school?

[chiromamma]

IB is International Baccalaureate.

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Originally Posted by chiromamma

Christiane Northrup discusses how crippling and unfair to girls these types of attitudes can be and how important it is that parents and other adults (like Mrs S) teach our children compassion and help them gain emotional intelligence. I refuse to believe that girls are mean, or harder to raise than boys even in the thick of a very negative phase with my daughter.

Unfortunately, the attitude only works when it isn't your child coming home in tears every day. It's hard to tell your own child who is in real pain, that it's O.K, because these girls are just going through a phase, and their parents haven't read the book.

I will fully admit, my daughter was one of the mean kids for a short time. I was lucky enough to have a Mom call and tell me that my dd was being mean to a few girls. I did a lot of investigating, and found out it was true. SHe was especially mean on the internet. I was shocked, because I would have never thought she was like that. I put a stop to what I could, and the other girls took care of the rest. For almost an entire school year, she lost all of her lifelong friends because of her choices. It was hard to watch, but she was able to fix what she had done, and learned a valuable lesson.

[menudo]

Unfortunatly it doesn't last. Girls are mean. I know someone here will say "That is sexist" but, it's true. Girls can be very cruel.

It can go either way. All personailty based. Albeit girls tend to be more about the drama. When I was in school, the boys were much meaner to me than any girl. I was threatened, pucnhed, etc. by the more popular or jock type boys.

DD is in 5th grade and I have met some blatantly 2 faced or bluntly MEAN girls. I mena, they were nasty to her right in front of me. One girl stands out and I can't say it is her upbringing as her OLDER and YOUNGER sister are sweet and like DD!

[LaLaLuna]

Nextcommercial, I know what you mean by some classes are more difficult that others. My younger son is in a classroom where almost all the kids are younger siblings. The interactions are for the most part very sweet and cooperative. Older son's class is almost all 1st children or only children.

I've just heard that two more kids are transferring out after xmas break. And unfortunately one of them is a boy my son feels very supported by and who I feel is a real asset to the class.

I am feeling really spun by all this; up until now I felt that this school was really the best thing for my son but it feels like suddenly a lot of sub-acute symptoms have reached a flashpoint.:

I think dh and I really have to make a decision soon about whether to try to get ds more support in the classroom and persevere or to call it quits. It's such a struggle for him to go to school every day and keep it together - if the stress doesn't ease I really think he'll start to relapse into behaviors he's worked hard to overcome. His annual IEP meeting is this Wed. (another thing I'm po'd about; that a meeting we asked for at the beginning of the year got punted until Dec.) and I will be bringing up all the concerns then and there. It will be interesting to see what response we get.

[MillingNome]

To be blunt- fifth grade was the worst for dd. It was as awful as awful could be. She has been with the same small group of kids, now for the last almost nine years. There is only one class per a grade. It was a complete struggle to get through it and the teacher did not help at all. She was not bad nor good, just kind of a dud. I'm sure she is a fine person but those fifth graders needed someone who was a more of a force of nature to guide them through.

DD made it through but just barely. Things got better when she learned some valuable lessons- don't talk about people behind their back, rumors are strange twisted stories with little resemblance to truth, boys are cool, it's good to have outside interest, remain neutral between warring groups unless you need to take a moral stand, true friends are human- not perfect, forgiveness is golden and nothing stays the same for too long.

I came close to pulling her it was so bad. I am glad I did not. Her class is a nice microcosm of the real world. Because it was on a smaller scale, it was easier to manage. DD needed to go through that because she couldn't be told about how to handle the social dynamics. It was better she learn then than when the stakes are higher as in high school.

just my 2c

[boobybunny]

LaLaLuna I swear I am not stalking you.

Our oldest is in the 5th grade at BV. So I hear you on most of what you are saying. He has a formal ADHD dx and is in speech with an IEP. Do you know which school you are feeding into? Most likely Roosevelt, or is it SB? If it is SB, move heaven and earth to transfer to R. R is much more civic minded and open to the differences in people. My experiences with SB have not been good, too many cliques, too much of an us vs them attitude up there. We are supposed to feed into Monroe, but I am thinking of removing him from the BV, Spanish immersion to R, and then sending him to South.

This year has been really difficult for him, his friendships are changing, growing and shrinking all at the same time. He has a history of outbursts, this year and others. It is a challenge. What is your boy into? Would he have a problem with my son's obsession with all things tank?

[katheek77]

Well, I dont' have a child that age, but I taught 4th grade, and 6-8th grades.

Yes, those years can be hell, and, yes, there are cliques left and right. Sadly, your description does not seem very "outside the norm." Even when teachers can control the viciousness within the classroom, it often manifests outside the classroom (playground, lunch room, waiting for buses, etc.) It varied with each class' composition, but from my experience, sixth grade was the worst, and things were markedly different by 8th grade - I had the same kids for 6-8th grades...but, as you said, the class with the strongest personalities WAS the worst one through the years. My last class of rising sixth graders was actually pretty mellow toward each other.

[LaLaLuna]

Boobybunny

Thanks for your insight on SB and R.- his neighborhood school would be McC this year and K. next year. Needless to say I have extremely mixed feelings... I want to look at the Montessori charter as well.

iamthesmilingone; it sounds like your dd was going through what one of my ds's classmates is going through right now (daughter of a very dear friend of mine). She is suddenly at the top of the pecking order this year (after being much lower previous years) and is not handling it very well at all. It's wrenching to see this kid I love struggle with these issues and have to face the fact that her actions have been hurtful to others and have to take ownership of that.

katheek7- do you have any suggestions on how to help the kids help themselves through this? My sister-in-law pulled 3 of her 4 kids out of school for the middle school years and homeschooled them- I'm not confident I have the skill to do that.

[ktmama]

Wow, OP, you could be talking about my dd1's experience this year in 5th grade and in a NEW school. But, it's the boys who are the "problem".

The way I've handled the situation is to put pressure on the school (lots and lots of pressure) to come down hard on this bullying, which it really is. My stance is I don't care if kids can be cruel at this age, it's not something that the school and the parents have to accept. Luckily for me, after a period of trying to help my dd work out HER conflicts with these boys, the school is seeing that it really is one sided and they need to help the boys with a combination of support, education and consequences and involve their parents.

HTH and I hope you can hang in there with your son's school. He has as much right to be there as anyone.

[LaLaLuna]

There is a 5th grade parent meeting tonight; the teacher just went to a relational aggression conference so I am hoping she will bring good tools to the classroom and at least start to resolve some of this.

DH and I got a chance to talk last night - I think we are going to wait and see; see how the IEP meeting goes and whether it gets met for the remainder of the year, whether the bullying calms down- and if it doesn't I think we'll just transfer him out of the school.. boobybunny, I am going to check out R. I looked at their website and they seem to have a lot more going on than our neighborhood school- and it wouldn't be too far out of the way if ds2 is still going to VS. DS 1 is bored silly- he wants to learn algebra and they're still working on long division. Sigh. I wish there was a school that was for kids who are academically ahead and socially behind. We need a nerd school!

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Originally Posted by LaLaLuna

. We need a nerd school!

LMAO! That is so true!!