Ok I need help - very frustrated (re 4 year old)

[Dolphin]

This will be long - forgive me. I feel like my relationship with my 4 year old is in a downward spiral, and I'm starting to really question my beliefs in GD. I know dh is.

Here's the most recent scenario, which isn't uncommon.

I needed to go to the grocery store today. I always take ds2 (7 mos) with me, because he only has eyes for mommy right now. I always try to involve ds1 in what I do if I can, because i don't want him to feel left out. Our trips to the grocery usually tend to end up with me swearing I won't be taking him with me again any time soon. But I continue to try because I want to include him.

So on the way to the store, I remind him that he agreed to stay sitting in the cart. We get to the parking lot, and he begins with "mom, I can't sit in the cart because I need to push the small cart". Me: "honey, we can't use the small cart because I need more room than that and we can't push two carts". He: "No, I want to use the small cart!". Back and forth with my explaining why we can't use the small cart. I ask him if he just needs to go back home and hang out with dh until I get back. I'm not being mean or pushy, just asking him if we are going to have trouble with this issue and telling him I won't argue with him about it. So we get out of the car and find a cart with the seats behind the handles, which he likes and agrees to sit in. We get barely into the store when he starts jumping out of the seat and putting things in the cart. I calmly but firmly tell him we don't need those things and to please stay in the cart - the store is too crowded to run around. He then starts asking me what things I need, that he wants to get them for me and put them in the cart. I play along with that until I need something that is too high for him to reach. When I get that thing, he freaks out, yelling "No, I want to get that!". Me: "that's too high, let me set it on the lower shelf", etc. He, growling and pouting, "no". Ok, moving right along. This continues. Add in him trying to grab things we don't need or I would never buy, while I have to go chase him down, ask him to put things back, when he doesn't, put it back for him, all while people are waiting for us to get out of the way. So I put him in the seat and tell him I need him to sit in the seat since he is having trouble not running around. As I'm buckling him in (because he simply will not stay sitting without it), he is hitting his brother, whom I am wearing in the Ergo, and kicking me. I am still fairly calm at this time, trying not to fall into the "people are watching me - must make child behave" trap. I tell him that I won't be able to take him with me next time to store because he acts this way. He says "oh, you won't remember". I realize that was a threat, but at that point I was getting angry. He then started screaming for his cars that he had thrown in the cart. I told him we wouldn't be getting the cars. Punishment, I know. But I'm not really feeling like buying cars that I didn't want for someone who is kicking me and hitting his brother, and just generally being unpleasant. I want to add that I don't usually do that - I really try not to punish or threaten, although it is becomming increasingly difficult these days. And honestly I'm wondering if that's doing him more harm than good. So he really starts screaming. "Cars! Cars!! I want my cars!!!". Me, calmly, "please stop screaming - we aren't getting the cars". We finally made it through the checkout line, with him screaming and throwing a fit. A woman in the parking lot actually came up to me and said she wanted to commend me for staying so calm under the circumstances.

Then on the way home, still screaming, he unbuckled his carseat and got out while the car was moving. I asked him to get back in the seat immediately. He didn't, so I stopped the car and put him back in his seat. Start the car and he does it again. Etc. Etc. I finally made it home and opened a beer. And I don't drink beer! When DH saw me and heard ds, still screaming in the car, he got him out of the car and escorted him to his room. He is definitely not as interested in following the most gd methods as I am, but he is a wonderful father and tries to be fair.

The thing is that he never ever acts that way when he and DH go to the store. Only with me. I can't just leave in the middle of the store, because we have a cart full of food, and I have a short window before baby starts getting fussy. I can't just keep running back and forth to the store and home. Add to that DH is leaving town tomorrow and I needed groceries for him. I realize I just shouldn't take him with me. I just try to include him, and there are many times I have no choice but to take him. He does this whether or not I have ds2 with me. It' s not just trips to the store, but that's fresh on my mind tonight. He doesn't listen, does not seem motivated by discussion, does not seem to care whether I am disappointed or upset. He responds much better to DH, who uses time-outs freely and definitely believes in using punishments (never physical though) liking taking toys away or withholding tv. They seem to have a better relationship!

What is going wrong???

[HarperRose]

I'm having issues w/ my 6 yr old, myself, and we just had a baby. In my thread, the girls reminded me that it's totally normal for a sibling to respond like this w/ a new baby in the house.

I would say part of it is definitely the new sibling business. The other part could be age. And then the general being a pain in the butt-ness when we need to just get something done.

Avoid taking him to the store. Don't stress yourself out. I mean, if you're on your last square of toilet paper and you have no napkins or paper towels or baby wipes in the house, then you'll have to go but if he can stay home w/ dad, then let him. Involve him in other ways.

Originally Posted by Dolphin

A woman in the parking lot actually came up to me and said she wanted to commend me for staying so calm under the circumstances.

I've gotten this, too, and it's SO nice to hear when all I want to do is scream and pull my hair out like a maniac!

[Jescafa]

This sounds to me like pretty classic acting out to get attention. It's got to be tough for him with a relatively new baby in the house.

Yeah, it probably wasn't a good idea to take both kids to the store. But in your case I think I might have left the baby at home with your DH. I know it's tough to contemplate that--my little one only has eyes for mommy as well--but baby will survive, and the hour or so of one-on-one attention would probably mean the world to your older one.

The other thing that I wonder about here, especially given what you say about him having a better relationship with your DH, who is stricter--is how are you both doing with managing expectations? My 4 yo does so much better when I tell her before we even leave the house exactly where we're going to go, what we're going to do, and what we're not going to do. It's clear you're doing that somewhat, because you mentioned that you had talked about the cart...but maybe there's a way to take that to the next level? Your DH might be doing more of that just by token of using punishments (this is what's going to happen, or else...[fill in blank]). Maybe there's a way to do that without the "or else"?

And finally, well, this is probably not very GD, but I am really hard-and-fast about that stay-in-the-cart rule. It sounds like you are more flexible about it, and that's fine if it works for you, but honestly it sounds like it doesn't work so well. And when you tell him he needs to stay in the cart but then allow him to get out multiple times, I guess he just feels like you don't mean what you say. I always let my DD1 take a few toys in, and I have some snacks at the ready, and I have her help me look for things on the shelf, and I involve her a lot, but for my own sanity I simply don't allow her to get out of the cart. Yup, I buckle her in--thankfully she hasn't figured out those buckles yet! LOL.

[Fuamami]

I'd leave. I'd tell him, "Stay in the cart or I'm taking you home and coming back without you." And then, I'd probably have to do it. I've gotten pretty strict, though, since I've had number three, so you might not be interested in being that strict.

I would also not stand for any hitting or kicking of the younger sibling. Age four vs. seven months can be really dangerous.

Have you tried more playful parenting? Could you work out with him ahead of time how he's going to help you? Maybe have a game where he only puts red packages in the cart or something like that? Would it help if you went at a different time of day?

Either way, it doesn't sound very fun. It sounds like one big power struggle, and I'd try to short-circuit that if you can. I've had those days at the store, though, and I commend you for staying calm also.

[Dolphin]

You've all made good points - thank you. I am hearing that I need to be more strict on staying in the cart. I think I stopped making him every time when he got so darned tall and I got so pregnant that it was almost impossible to get him up and in it. Unless the store has one of the special car carts, he almost doesn't fit in it. But I definitely need to be less wishy-washy about that. And for the near future, I will leave him home. The thing that gets me is that he does it even when I make the effort to take him alone. Then I come home, frustrated from his behavior, to a crying baby and a flustered dh. Nothing seems to work, the talking beforehand, the trying to make games out of it.

He's so spirited, has been from birth, none of the usual methods seem to work for him. I'm just trying to get through this with some semblance of a respectful relationship and hoping that the phase passes. I find myself asking though if he isn't the type of kid that **needs** me to be more strict. I have tried so hard from his infancy to let him be who he is and give him as much freedom and empowerment as he seems to need. But that feels like it's backfiring on me now. I want to add that the hitting his brother thing was a first tonight. He was just hitting anyone and anything that got in front of him, and unfortunately his baby brother was. That would get an immediate trip to his room at home, but fortunately that doesn't happen. Hitting either me or his dad is just not accepted, and most definitely baby. He actually adores his brother. It's me he's not so crazy about lately

I think I'm confused about the setting boundaries thing. When you don't have a child who will respect your wishes about certain boundaries, how on earth do you enforce that without punishment if a natural consequence doesn't just happen? An example without being too (much more) wordy: couple of days ago, he went into the front yard after I asked him to stay in the back yard. I needed to go up and get dressed to make an appointment and couldn't watch him while he was in the front. I explained that and asked him to please come inside or go in the back yard. He said "no!", and then proceeded to sing "you can't catch me..." while running around the front yard. I finally had to threaten calling his friend to tell him not to come over for a scheduled playdate to get him to come inside. I'm just finding myself more and more lost about how to handle situations lately...

[marincarrie]

I could have written your post--I have 2 boys, 4 y.o. and 7 months. My husband and I were talking tonight about what we should do with my older one. I very much think that it's about attention--but it is so incredibly irritating day after day that I'm having a hard time staying true to my beliefs when it comes to discipline!!

I think I need to find a way to spend alone time with my older son. I spend alone time with the baby all the time, but we don't get our time together anymore.

I think he's mad at me about the baby--he loves his brother, but boy is he angry with me!!

I'm going to re-read "Positive Discipline for Preschoolers" I need to get motivated again!!

Good luck to you,
Carrie
Boden (8-19-03)
Nathan (5-7-07)

[hellyaellen]

just wanted to offer a hug mama. four is a tough age. or it was for me.

beyond not spanking i'm not the most gd parent so i don't know that i have any suggestions for you other than leaving your older son at home.

[Mommiska]

Wow - you sound like a saint! Amazing job staying calm when out shopping - 99.9% of parents would have lost it...

As others have said, I would definitely leave him home whenever that is an option at the moment, and include him in other ways. Just a simple explanation that he found it difficult to stay in the cart last time when you needed him to stay in the cart, so he'll need to stay home with Daddy this trip.

I would give sympathy briefly if he's upset that he's not going ('You are really sad that you can't go with Mommy this time - you would like to go instead of staying home', with a quick hug), but I'd stand my ground.

When you do have to take him, I'd definitely recommend reading 'How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk'. This book can seem like it's geared towards older kids, but the techniques they suggest help younger kids as well.

One of the things they emphasis is sympathizing with your child's feelings ('Oh - you are upset because you need to stay in the big cart. You'd rather push the small cart, because that would be more fun') when they can't have what they want.

Explanations tend not to work with kids (and they can even be annoying for adults, although it's what we automatically tend to offer) - but if they know that we understand how they feel, even if we can't give in, that can help them accept their disappointment.

Another trick they suggest is giving your child in fantasy what they can't have in real life ('Oh gosh - I bet you wish you were as tall as Daddy, so you could reach the packet on the top shelf! Wouldn't that be fun? Would it be fun to be soooo tall you could touch the ceiling?!'). Lots of times kids will get into the silliness of this and it can stop the tantrum by turning everything into a fun 'I wish' kind of game.

Just a couple of ideas, but I would definitely buy the book and read it - lots of wonderful insights!

As for you ds behaving better with your dh - if you are the primary caregiver, then you ds is much more likely to act up with you, simply because he feels more comfortable with you. Not that he doesn't feel comfortable with your dh, but its generally the person who is with the child the most that will get the worst behaviour...it's the child's 'baby self' coming out (Anthony Wolf - The Secret of Parenting is also a good book!).

Think about yourself - you'll let your hair down a lot more with your dh than you would with a good friend, right? The closer the relationship, the more of the 'baby self' the other person will see. I'd guess that's most of what is going on with you, your ds and your dh right now.

Hugs to you all...You're doing a great job!

[newmommy]

to you Dolphin! I can relate to you to your post...

[Dolphin]

Thanks so much everyone. I appreciate the book suggestions. I will be hitting Amazon tonight to see if I can gather some tools to help me through this. I really thought I had this discipline thing down before this all started. Now I feel pretty clueless most of the time. It is comforting to know I'm not alone - thanks and to those going through this too.

[Jescafa]

Originally Posted by Dolphin

I think I'm confused about the setting boundaries thing. When you don't have a child who will respect your wishes about certain boundaries, how on earth do you enforce that without punishment if a natural consequence doesn't just happen? An example without being too (much more) wordy: couple of days ago, he went into the front yard after I asked him to stay in the back yard. I needed to go up and get dressed to make an appointment and couldn't watch him while he was in the front. I explained that and asked him to please come inside or go in the back yard. He said "no!", and then proceeded to sing "you can't catch me..." while running around the front yard. I finally had to threaten calling his friend to tell him not to come over for a scheduled playdate to get him to come inside. I'm just finding myself more and more lost about how to handle situations lately...

I guess I think of it all more in terms of "logical consequences" than "natural consequences." Meaning, I don't always just wait and hope for the desired consequences to happen; I bring them about myself. "If you cannot stop pulling things off the shelves, you will have to go back in the cart where you can't reach them." "If you cannot stop kicking your brother, we will have to switch to a different kind of cart where you cannot reach him." "If you cannot stop screaming, we are going to have to leave the store." I know it toes the line of punishment, but you asked how I do it, and that's how.

In the above situation I might have just explained that as long as he was running around in the front yard, you couldn't get dressed, and if you couldn't get dressed, you couldn't do any of the things you had planned for the day, including getting him together with his friend. It's a logical consequence that way, not arbitrary punishment. But, I also wouldn't trust my 4 yo to be outside alone to begin with, especially not in an area that wasn't fenced (I'm assuming it's not, since he can move freely between back and front yards). You might consider, at least in this situation, if the behavior you are expecting is truly age-appropriate.

[mysweetw&e]

Four is HARD! And add a sibling to that, wow. I agree you did a great job staying calm!

One thing about the grocery store- for some kids it can be really overwhelming with the noise and the lights and all the colors, etc. Ds has more trouble than others there sometimes, and when I ask him he'll often say it's too loud and he can't hear me. Telling him the next thing we need on our list and having him remember it for me helps keep him focused. But sometimes he's too distracted for even that and then I give him food.

About running into the front yard- I probably would chase, him, pick him up and bring him inside, reminding him that the front yard isn't safe and he may not be there. Or tell him I can't find something and asking him to find it for me so we can go- he really responds to helping.

Also, you could say something like "it seems like you really want my attention right now and you're frustrated that I'm not paying attention to you. What can I do to help you?" At 4 he can probably come up with some solutions to his own problems if you ask and are willing to do them. When I asked ds what I could do to help him keep his sister safe (right around his 4th birthday) he said "Watch me more mama!" Yep, cry for attention. And paying attention more did help.

[monkeybum]

OMG, I could have written your post exactly. I have a (nearly) 4 yo and an 8 month old. My older DS is exactly the same way, he would have acted exactly like that at the store, we have the exact same conversations and struggles! So I feel better at least knowing it's "normal", and I too feel like maybe I should be more strict.

I got the advice on here and I really do find repeating how they are feeling back to them really helps, ("you are frustrated b/c you can't reach the cereal. What can we do about that?").

Looking forward to trying the above suggestions and hearing more!

Kathy

[robin4kids]

4 y/o

I'm sorry, but WHY are you bringing him to the grocery store? If you have to because dh is not available, then fine, but if dh is home then LEAVE your ds AT HOME. It is hard enough going to the store with a baby, but someone who can walk and talk and express what they want should not be going to the store.

Why do you feel the need to include your ds? Are you feeling guilty for bringing the baby and not him? If this is the case than STOP. I am giving you permission to go to the store free of guilt. Tell ds that mommy needs to get the shopping done in a timely manner and when he comes it takes too long. Tell him you would like to leave baby behind, but he needs to nurse and daddy can't do that. Yes ds may cry, but hand him over to dh and WALK OUT THAT DOOR!

There are sooo many other times that you can do fun things which include your ds. Shopping is not fun for kids unless they get to push the cart, put things in the cart and tell you what to buy. Why in the world would they EVER enjoy sitting in the cart when there are so many good foods to touch?

Stop feeling guilty for having another child. You ds will use it against you. Life is NOT fair. Life is not equal. Eventually it all becomes equal, but kids never seem to understand that. One year your ds1 will need a new bike, but your other ds2 will not. ds2 will be mad, because he did not get one. The next year ds2 will get a new bike and ds1 will be angry. Don't give in. These are life lesson which every child needs to learn.

Besides why can't staying home with dad be a treat. One on one time with dad can be a lot of fun.
Robin

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

I only have an 8 mo old, but I'll contribute a remembrance from my childhood--

I was very, very "spirited." My mother and I had many conflicts throughout my childhood, as she is a remarkably kind and gentle person, and I tended to perceive her kindness as weakness which i could easily overrule in order to get what I wanted. I did this all the time. It makes me sad now to think back on all the times I made my sweet mother cry. Furthermore, because she was not confrontational, my mother did not like to talk (well-- in my case, it was always more like arguing!) about my opinions and feelings. She would try, and it would generally end with me "trumping" her arguments and treating her with shameful disrespect. I really did think I was *so* much smarter than she was.
I did not have the same problem with my father. He always listened and would engage with me in my arguments, and I was very grateful to him for this. I think, though, that part of his success was due to the fact that he was a somewhat amused by my antics- he never felt theatened by me or feared that I would stop loving him if he made me unhappy. I really do think that from a very young age I could sense that my mother felt theatened and that I had a sort of emotional force over her.
I so wish now that my mother had asserted herself more when I was younger-- that she had forced me to respect her as a person with feelings just like mine. Our relationship improved dramatically as I went off to college, married, had the baby, etc, but I *still* sometimes feel myself taking her for granted, assuming my needs are more important than hers, etc.

All I am saying, I suppose, is that with "spirited" children, boundaries are *so* important. I think most of my bad behavior began when my sister was born (I was 2) and I suddenly was not the center of the universe anymore My mother felt, at the time, that she was allowing me to be myself or perhaps even making me love her more, but I really did feel "safer" with my father, because I knew I could not "break" him.

Your situation may be completely different-- but i hope this helps
Bethany

[mysticmomma]

Another playful idea would be to use a grocery list for him. Take pictures of the things you need, and write down what aisle it's in. Give him the list. When you are in aisle 1 let him hop down and get the things from aisle 1. Make sure it's all stuff he can reach and carry. Maybe you could cut and paste his list with him, printing pics off the internet or whatever. Race him. "Bet you can't find your stuff and get back buckled in before I do! "I agree it sounds like he desperately needs your attention.. .and he's getting it! SOme of these may not work for quick trips, but for those, I'd be inclined to insight bribery of some sort. Here's a lollipop kid, but only while you're int eh cart. : Do what you gotta do.

[robin4kids]

One more thing.

I don't agree with being more strict. If you HAVE to take him to the store than I think you need to understand that he is NOT going to stay in the cart. My ds is spirited and also 4. When he does have to come with me, then he will usually be running behind me or in front of me. I try to make the trip very short and offer food to eat throughout the store. I don't worry about him running all over. Yes I am the mom whose kid just cut you off. To me it is more work to tie them down and make them stay with me. I keep a watchful eye on my ds and can be heard throughout the store saying, "Come along "R"." I can't see you."

Life is too short to feel guilty, or fight with your child. I pick my battles. If they do, do something very awful, then LEAVE the cart, full or not. I have!
Robin

[angela&avery]

[QUOTE=Dolphin;9963385 I tell him that I won't be able to take him with me next time to store because he acts this way. He says "oh, you won't remember". [/QUOTE]

I think this here is key.
You are making empty threats and he knows it. I think its a natural consequence that if you cannot be helpful and follow the rules in the store, you will stay home next time.. and I think you should enforce that. Whether or not it is GD, im not sure, but this is what I would do.. I would also have said.. if you dont stop _____, we will leave.. and then i would leave.

[loraxc]

You remind me a little of me and my strong-willed almost 4yo. I have another book recommendation: Kid Cooperation, by Elizabeth Pantley.

[Dolphin]

Ok, now ya'll are starting to sound just like my internal voices. Take him with me to include him, no, leave him home. Be more strict, no, just let him be a kid and run around. Set and enforce more boundaries, but don't punish or threaten. I definitely don't have anything generally against confrontation, Bethany, but I really appreciate you for telling your story. It's very interesting that you feel that spirited kids need more boundaries. I think you're probably right, but I don't know how to **enforce** boundaries at this point without really starting punishments, etc. because he doesn't just do what I say. I really do follow through most of the time, but in this particular instance, I was heading to the store and he came to me and begged to come along, promising (without prompting from me) that he would stay in the cart the whole time. I caved and let him come with and regretted it.

I think the grocery store is particularly overstimulating for him, and I picked a bad time of day to go, but this kind of thing is happening more and more in all areas and in more situations. My gut is that I need to get tougher, it's just hard walking the line between setting boundaries and punishing. I will read all the books suggested though and see if it helps.