Consequences to general rudeness

[oliversmum2000]

my 7yo can be incredibly rude / snarky and generally horrible to my 4yo ds who absolutely adores him and would give him the shirt off his back.

what are the consequences to this behaviour? i have been relying on sending him to his room if he cannot be pleasant to his little brother, as i dont think that my younger ds should have to tolerate this low level bullying. i was the victim of this for my whole childhood from my older sister and the effects on my self esteem were devastating.

so what ought the consequences be, it is just comments he makes to what my younger ds does or says, nothing than if it were just the once would be a big problem, but its just unremitting some days. the only solution is to allow ds1 to watch tv or play on the computer. somebody suggested he may be bored, but i cannot entertain him all day and do not want him to be reliant on electronic media for stimulation. and i cannot let either of my sons think that this is an ok way to treat people or to be treated.

[oliversmum2000]

no help?

[Mizelenius]

My oldest can be somewhat rude with her sister. I've stayed out of it, but I also remember my sister calling me names . . .it hurt far more than what my parents ever did. So, I don't want to let it go, either.

I've tried explaining why she should not act like that. Does not work. I try to give her words to explain herself w/o being hurtful . . . instead of "I don't like you! I don't want you to be my sister!" I tell her, "Be specific: 'I"m mad that you knocked over my house.'" That helps. But, when she is rude w/o any sort of obvious cause, then I am lost. Guilt does not help-- she probably feels bad about herself, but that makes the problem worse in the long run.

I think the trick is to not have the offender feel hopeless about the situation, not walk around thinking he/she is unkind. I think if we, as adults, can identify what is REALLY wrong (like maybe boredom, maybe someone was rude to them, etc.) then we can get on the right path. And I think it's going to take time, as well as holding ourselves up to very high standards. Think about it-- were you rude to him? Did he see any adults acting rudely toward each other? I have made those mistakes.

So, this is what I think is the message:

i cannot let either of my sons think that this is an ok way to treat people or to be treated.

The first course is to help the victim, to assure him/her that this is NOT appropriate treatment. Then, say the same thing to the person who said something unkind. Help them name their feelings, but remind them that you can feel something without taking it out on others. Find something you can do all together.

Other than that, I really don't know. I am interested in responses as well!

[mamamelia]

no advice about consequences, but many hugs. my eldest can be like that towards her little sister. granted, my eldest is only 3 and so she is still learning about what is acceptable and what isn't.

how do you talk to your 7yo in general? do you give him the same patience that your younger son receives, or are you more likely to be snappy towards him? do you hear yourself when he is talking to his brother? do you think he feels cheated or less cared for than his brother?
i hope you don't take this the wrong way, just trying to brainstorm and sadly, i actually talk from experience too.

i started to notice that when my 3yo treated her little sister badly, it was almost always the same type of treatment that she received from us at the worst of times... minimal patience and quite rudely at times.

i figured that when i heard my own words coming out of her mouth, it was most definitely a case of "well if mummy and daddy say it to me, then it must be ok.. it must be the way we deal with people when we are unhappy with them".
it was shocking and quite sad to see as i didn't realise that is how i was coming across.
needless to say, we've changed the way we work in this house, and the difference in dd is beginning to show. minimal snatching from her little sister, more patience, more sharing, more affection.

maybe you have something similar going on? i apologise if i am way off base here.

have you tried posting in the childhood years forum?

[WuWei]

A couple of things come to mind. At school, children use language in unsupervised settings and the bystanders don't see any consequences except to the other children, or their own experience of being bullied. So, I'd expect the bystanders to "try on" the behaviors to see what are the ramifications, and impact, in other similar situations. Children are experiential and test things through trial and error. They may have experienced the bullying as the bullied and feel a need to feel powerful in "safe" environments to strengthen themselves against those words and phrases. Sorta like sharing the pain, in order to release some of it. I'd explore if folks are talking to him like that.

Another is to validate the "ugly" feelings, such as is described in Siblings Without Rivalry. If the little brother is home with mama all day, there could be feeling that he gets all the fun attention, while he is away at school. Of course, if he loves school, this is probably less of an issue. But, the dynamics of a child being home, when they are usually not with the family, is a transition. I know even dh feels a bit 'out of the flow' when he comes home, since ds and I are together and have our own dynamic which works for us. There is the risk of feeling like an "outsider". So, we work to create a welcoming environment and to focus on his homecoming and draw him into our flow. Maybe, making some routines which welcome him or help him to transition back into the family after being away? Or some one-on-one time to give him some special attention on a regular basis, which doesn't include having to accommodate a younger sibling. Younger children often take the mama's attention away from the child who is used to being The Most Important Person to His mama. Sharing mama is hard.

Another issue is if ds is an introvert and little brother is in his space. In what ways could you create a 'haven' for the big brother to "take space" when he needs some quiet time, without little hands disrupting his activities and play? Perhaps, proactively nurture his room as a happy place to be, rather than something he is "sent to" as punishment. In what ways could you all create a fun, inviting place for him to play in his room, so that it is a resource, not a consequence? Ds loves his room. When he is out of sorts, he retreats there to unwind and relax. He is also sensory seeking, so we've have a swing and jumping mattress for him to meet those needs as self-calming activities. Maybe make a list of fun things to do when "bored" and work with him to get engaged. At 6.5, ds still needs assistance redirecting himself when agitated, but we move toward FUN together. And that helps him to reconnect with me and to recenter. When I amp up, he amps up. Someone recently posted that their mantra is "Do Not Escalate!" and this has served me well also.

Oh, and visual learners are soothed by media. Ds loves tv, video games and computer games. He learns tons there and it is engaging and enriching his life.


HTH, Pat

[oliversmum2000]

a lot of his comments are totally unecessary, ds2 will say something like look at x, and ds1 will come back with some rude little condescending comment, its weird i cannot even think of an example off the top of my head. ds2 often isnt even talking to ds1, just talking generally and ds1 feels the need to put him down and be rude to him.

i guess i have to work on creating a loving relationship between them by playing with them both more, i have become a little preoccupied by christmas and end of school term, not just on stopping the unkind interactions.

[anne+arun]

Originally Posted by WuWei

In what ways could you create a 'haven' for the big brother to "take space" when he needs some quiet time, without little hands disrupting his activities and play?

THat really made a big difference with our two munchkins. Ours are younger kids than yours but when dd could choose when she wanted to interact with (much younger) ds... and do it on her terms more, then the interaction improved by leaps and bounds.

In my own family i suspect my older brother verbally bullied my sister because of the adoration which he felt uncomfortable of (i was youngest of three so had a good view of it all).

Generally I too would suggest focussing on supporting/ connecting rather than looking for consequence. So support/ understanding of the younger one in the heat of the situation ... and more general support for the older one who is obviously playing out some disconnection or frustration.

i love your sentiment when you say:
i cannot let either of my sons think that this is an ok way to treat people or to be treated.

Keep this in mind and perhaps reflect on the way you are treating your oldest when he gets rude/ snarky. Perhaps you can communicate the sentiment by showing not telling. I know it seems "reasonable" to send your oldest to his room in such situations but for all we know he thinks his actions against your younger ds are reasonable also.

In my opinion looking for consequences (punishments) might solve the immediate behavioural problem but i suspect it runs counter to your stated aim of demonstrating how people should treat each other.

all the best
arun
------
http://www.theparentingpit.com

[Breeder]

I agree with pp: treat the victim first.

I always stress the "treat others the way you want to be treated." No sibling for DS yet (we'll see when little peanut is around three - then it could be me posting this same thread!) but my son who is 5y has been using what I call a "mean voice" lately.
I ask him if he would like it if I spoke to him that way and he always says no. Generally that gentle reminder works.....for a little while.

As for you entertaining him, he is 7 years old and should be pretty well capable of entertaining himself without an electronic babysitter. Maybe a trip to the library is order?

Although I also think that activities with all three of you could help: playing a board game or making cookies. Something where you could focus on both of them.

[ramona_quimby]

This is exactly our situation. DS is 6 and DD is 3. DD adores her big brother and has such a kind, open heart. They used to be grand friends and so creative together, but now he does just what you are saying your older one does...he puts her down, even when she's minding her own business, he bullies her, and in our house, there's more: he gets in her way and doesn't let her pass, he ROARS! at her, he glares at her. He is also ignoring me when I talk to him, looks away when I ask him to help with something or says something rude back to me, just totally horrible.

Today, he said the most wretched things to our little neighbor boy - "I'm going to hit you" "I'm not going to be your friend" and then he did hit him once and also called him stupid several times. I took away his gymnastics class tonight. When we talked about it later, he told me that he was mad that the neighbor boy crashed his playdate with his favorite friend, uninvited. I told him I understood the frustration, but the way he treated him was inappropriate. He just didn't seem to care. He said he didn't care when I told him that he'd lose all his friends if he treats them this way. He said he'd make more the next day. How can my sweet little boy not care about other kids' feelings?

A few months ago, I thought he was the sweetest boy on the planet. He was so loving.

When he acts like this, I give him a chance to regroup. He often runs to me for a hug. Sometimes I'm at my wits end and yell at him.

I had #3 two months ago. So I'm sure there is a connection with the baby's arrival. It's interesting that DS takes his aggression out on DD, not on the baby. He ADORES the baby and is so sweet to her.

I've started splitting up DS and DD's bedtimes (used to put them to bed together). Now I spend time alone with each kid, and DS responds to it really well. He's so calm and loving during our time alone together at night. We'll even discuss his behavior of the day and how we handled it. And yet...the next morning, he'll be right back in bully mode again. It feels defeating and I don't know what to do. :