Choosing a donor: Let's talk about race

[frog]

In another thread, I said this:

turtle and I are choosing to use a donor of another race than we are. We both appear to be run-of-the-mill white chicks and, honestly, we both think that there are more than enough white people in the world already.

At least one poster wanted to hear more about that, so here's a thread where we can talk about it without hijacking the original thread.

[Scribe]

Well, since you started a thread, I've got a question:

How do you and Turtle plan to handle the mixed-race heritage of your potential child, as far as honoring the other non-white race s/he would come from without being of that race yourselves?

[frog]

Originally Posted by avengingophelia

How do you and Turtle plan to handle the mixed-race heritage of your potential child, as far as honoring the other non-white race s/he would come from without being of that race yourselves?

We plan to handle it in the same way(s) that we planned to handle it when adoption seemed to be the only way we'd build our family: Our Village and our extended families include many people of color, so our children won't be alone in that regard. We actually have far fewer friends who are queer than friends who aren't white, so we should probably do a little more thinking about that part of it, though it'll be easier to talk about that part since we live it.

There's nothing specific that we plan to change from the outset--meaning, we don't plan to go to a church that's more in line with our child's ethnic heritage or whatever.

Does that answer your question? (To the degree that it can be answered by me, anyway, since this is hypothetical in my life at this point.)

[thismama]

I thought about this issue when choosing a donor. I ended up finding a donor the same race as myself, but I finally decided after thinking about it that I would choose a donor regardless of race, and just let race sort itself out. Kinda like how the straight ppl do it.

[Scribe]

Yeah, it does.

The reason I asked is that, as you know, most of the kids in my life right now are mixed race or not the same race as their parents, and the families have chosen to handle it in very different ways, some thinking it is a much more complicated issue, some less, so I was curious where you and Turtle come down on that.

[frog]

Originally Posted by avengingophelia

The reason I asked is that, as you know, most of the kids in my life right now are mixed race or not the same race as their parents, and the families have chosen to handle it in very different ways, some thinking it is a much more complicated issue, some less, so I was curious where you and Turtle come down on that.

I think that we're going into this with open minds and open hearts, while also having done a lot of reading and talking with our friends (those of races different than ours, those with children of races other than theirs, etc.) about their experiences. We're pretty much acknowledging that it's an issue but that it's not insurmountable.

[KnittingTigers]

Hey Frog,

I think it's great that you've started this thread. My original two donors of choice were not white, while I am. They became my top choice for a number of reasons- race was not a primary factor in the first round of choosing. However, after we had narrowed out everyone with problematic health histories and personality traits, race did become an issue, and I too felt that there was a lot to be said for having a non-white child.

Of course, many people said things like, "But how will you know how to raise a child of color?" "Don't you think the kid will have enough problems by not having a dad?" (Ouch.) But I think that you've already answered those.

One of my friends did some academic research on this subject. Something he came up with, which I thought made sense, is that the families who do raising mixed-race children are the families who don't pretend that it "doesn't matter." That is, those parents who address the fact that sometimes their kids look different and are treated differently because of it tend to have better adjusted and happier children.

I will tell you though the one thing that gave me pause. At one point I was using a South Asian donor, and I was talking about this with two of my friends, who are a South Asian/white couple. When my friends found out that I was using a South Asian donor, and that there were limited supplies of him left, they got visibly concerned. Something that I didn't know, but that they were very well aware of, is that there are apparently only three South Asian donors at the major sperm banks in this country.They were worried that I was going to use up all of the available vials of one them, before they could even start the process of ttc, which for them, is still a year off. For them, having a South Asian donor was an important part of making sure that the baby felt like part of their family, and was accepted by their extended families. I had never considered that in using sperm from a donor of color, I was using up a limited resource of something that mixed-race and non-white couples often have a hard time finding.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. In the end, I didn't get pregnant with either of my first top choice donors. After five tries, I switched to my third choice donor, who had a much higher sperm count. He was white, so now, for better or worse, I'm carrying another little white baby...

[Kwynne]

Originally Posted by AngelaM

Something he came up with, which I thought made sense, is that the families who do raising mixed-race children are the families who don't pretend that it "doesn't matter." That is, those parents who address the fact that sometimes their kids look different and are treated differently because of it tend to have better adjusted and happier children.

Unless, of course, you already *are* a family of colour or a person of colour. Cuz of course, as a parent of colour, *you* already look "different" and are well aware of racism in your everyday life.

Here is what I can't handle about these discussions. We are *always* talkinga 'bout white folks. I always feel left out of these discussions, because of course, NO ONE would say to me, "don't raise a kid of colour, ze will already have a hard time not having a dad" - or other bull like that. Why? Cuz of course my kid is gonna be of colour - double whammy...whatever.

I guess when I hear of white folks talking about having kids of colour, they often feel a lot of defensiveness when people ask them further questions. What I've come to appreciate, however, that after the dust settles, at least they are taking race head on, something that many white queers don't do as they plan their families, choosing white donors (cuz of course, that has nothing to do with race - har har). So although I really want to know what kind of anti-racist prep work all of us have done, I wonder more so about the queers who chose/are choosing donors of colour. Cuz I know that when our family chose a white donor, I spent many many many moments wringing my hands over the crap load of internalized garbage I was going through (i.e. light is right etc.)

Thanks for starting this thread Frog. I've actually always wanted to ask you about your choice of a non-white donor, but I've had enough scrapes around race since TTC with other white queers who have had mixed raced kids that I got a bit fearful and well, quite tired.

[frog]

Originally Posted by Kwynne

I guess when I hear of white folks talking about having kids of colour, they often feel a lot of defensiveness when people ask them further questions. What I've come to appreciate, however, that after the dust settles, at least they are taking race head on, something that many white queers don't do as they plan their families, choosing white donors (cuz of course, that has nothing to do with race - har har). So although I really want to know what kind of anti-racist prep work all of us have done, I wonder more so about the queers who chose/are choosing donors of colour. Cuz I know that when our family chose a white donor, I spent many many many moments wringing my hands over the crap load of internalized garbage I was going through (i.e. light is right etc.)

Yep, I hear all of that. For me, a lot of the baggage has been around figuring out what to do about my grandmother. I love her dearly, she's a total PITA and she's about as racist as they come. She really seems to love turtle and she's come to terms, in her own way, with having a grand-daughter who's a lesbian, but I really don't know what she's going to make of all of this, should we have children who aren't white (and, for us, white's the default assumption). Last time we ttc, we used an Asian donor, in part because my brother's wife is Korean and I figured our kid(s) would at least have cousins in a similar boat, but when I got really honest about it, I knew it was also in part because my grandmother wouldn't have nearly the issues with a half-Asian baby as she would with a baby that's half just about anything else.

So, during our year-long break, we thought we were going to adopt two children who are niece and nephew to a friend of ours. Said friend and the children are black and I had to do a lot of unpacking of how that would play out in my extended family. In the end, I came to terms with the fact that if my grandmother (who, really, is symbolic of huge swaths of my family but it's helpful for me to talk about just one person at a time) can't cope with the way I'm choosing to build a family, that's not really my work to do. I see her MAYBE annually, given the geographical distance between us. And if I needed to, I can and will shield my children from her. It was a good thing for me to grapple with, IMO. (In the end, we didn't adopt those kids, which is a long-ass story all its own which has nothing to do with race.)

Originally Posted by Kwynne

Thanks for starting this thread Frog. I've actually always wanted to ask you about your choice of a non-white donor, but I've had enough scrapes around race since TTC with other white queers who have had mixed raced kids that I got a bit fearful and well, quite tired.

And I hear this, too. I'm typically pretty tentative about talking about this because I've already gotten a fair amount of crap from people--people who wouldn't DREAM of giving me a hard time for being with a partner who's of another race than I am.

[mama2rey]

I am biracial. My father is German, and my mother from Colombia. DP is from Mexico. We decided to go with a donor who was also Mexican. It wasn't the only reason-we liked him, and we did want a child that was the same race as us. It was important to us. I can't explain why, but we felt that it was something inherent about who we are and wanting to pass on our heritage.

One thing that I think is really important if you are going to raise a child that is of a different race than you, is to make sure that you expose him/her to their heritage, and who they are. Walking around brown can be hard. I would be lying if I said that I never experienced racism-however what has been my lifesaver is pride in my heritage. People say all sorts of crazy things about Colombia and drugs, or assume that I am the cleaning lady, or assume that I don't speak English etc...... I don't know what I would do if I did not have knowledge of what Colombia was really like, or had I not been exposed to positive Latino role models. This has helped me deal with racism that happens on a day to day basis.

I think that people are going have opinions no matter what. I have to admit that I get super annoyed when people want a child of color because they are "cute". That "cute" kid is likely going to grow up feeling exotified-which is not a nice feeling. However I have also seen people raise children of color who really go out of their way to make sure that they acknowledge that their child is different, and work with them on dealing with the stuff that they automatically will have to deal with. It does make a difference on how their children grow and deal with the world.

I also though want to challenge the idea of people being "run of the mill white" My own experience of Europe is that there are many rich cultures. For examples, I am part German, and I enjoy learning about German history, culture, dances. What has happened in the United States is this whole "melting pot" BS where people from really rich cultures were basically stripped of their heritage to fit into the United States society. 50 years ago, people from Germany were refusing to teach their children German, now many Latinos are refusing to teach their children Spanish (just one example). I just want to throw that in there-because I really want to challenge this idea that I see many people of European decent having, that they are "run of the mill"-there is likely a very rich and interesting history there.

[simplelah]

I'm glad you brought this up!
Donor #1 is 1/2 black.
We are (very) white girls.
I am blonde hair/blue eyes and J is brown/green so it's been controversial amongst our friends + family that the baby won't "look like he belongs to us".

We would be happy with a baby, no matter what the color, but everyone else has their own opinions.

[frog]

Originally Posted by expectantmami

I also though want to challenge the idea of people being "run of the mill white"

Actually, I'm the one who said something like that, but I was careful to say that we APPEAR to be run-of-the-mill white chicks. I'm actually very proud of my heritage--saying it the way I did was just quicker than detailing our heritages, which I will do now.

I'm Slovak (mother's father), Polish/German/Unknown Indigenous Tribe in Newfoundland (mother's mother), Finnish (father's father), and German (father's mother). turtle is Swedish, German and Cherokee.

I grew up with a lot of attention paid to being Slovak and Finnish (my last name is Finnish) and I was raised Lutheran (very Finnish, the sort of Lutheran I was). I don't know what turtle's experience was with her familial cultures as a child.

[KnittingTigers]

Originally Posted by Kwynne

Unless, of course, you already *are* a family of colour or a person of colour. Cuz of course, as a parent of colour, *you* already look "different" and are well aware of racism in your everyday life.

Here is what I can't handle about these discussions. We are *always* talkinga 'bout white folks. I always feel left out of these discussions, because of course, NO ONE would say to me, "don't raise a kid of colour, ze will already have a hard time not having a dad" - or other bull like that. Why? Cuz of course my kid is gonna be of colour - double whammy...whatever.

Thanks, Kwynne, and I'm sorry for not spelling out in my earlier post that my conversation with my friend was specifically about white folks raising non-white kids. You're right, of course. So many of these discussions do center around white people raising kids of color, and ignore the choices that families of color, or mixed-race families, make about donors, adoption, etc.

Originally Posted by Kwynne

I guess when I hear of white folks talking about having kids of colour, they often feel a lot of defensiveness when people ask them further questions. What I've come to appreciate, however, that after the dust settles, at least they are taking race head on, something that many white queers don't do as they plan their families, choosing white donors (cuz of course, that has nothing to do with race - har har). So although I really want to know what kind of anti-racist prep work all of us have done, I wonder more so about the queers who chose/are choosing donors of colour. Cuz I know that when our family chose a white donor, I spent many many many moments wringing my hands over the crap load of internalized garbage I was going through (i.e. light is right etc.).

Yeah, I found it really interesting that people had a lot of problems with me choosing a donor of color, but approached the choice of a white donor as if there weren't a choice there, if you know what I mean. As if, in choosing a white donor, I was just choosing the standard default option.

For me, I wanted a donor of color for several reasons. One was a commitment to building an anti-racist world, and having a child that reflected the community I've made for myself. I had a lot of long talks with my friends, some of whom are white, some of whom are people of color, before making that decision. Some of them were very supportive of my choice; others weren't. In the end, I felt very nervous about my choice to use a donor of color, but also very good about it. The other, much more personal side of the choice for me was that, while I read as white, no one on my father's (Greek/Middle Eastern) side of the family does, and part of me wanted to have a child that looked more like them in some way.

Anyway, thanks, Kwynne, for reminding me to think past the limiting "white parents, children of color" paradigm in these discussions.

[pranava]

Great Thread!!! DW and I were just struggling with this last night! I asked my sperm bank to just tell me the top fertile donors according to pregnancy rates and sperm count. One donor is Greek, and one is Indian/African American. We struggled over the decision to use one of these very fertile donors vs a not as fertile white donor. In the end, we've chosen the Greek donor because of fertility and his personal profile.

We will learn as much as we can about the Greek culture and teach our child so he/she is proud of their cultural heritage.

[KnittingTigers]

Originally Posted by pranava

Great Thread!!! DW and I were just struggling with this last night! I asked my sperm bank to just tell me the top fertile donors according to pregnancy rates and sperm count. One donor is Greek, and one is Indian/African American. We struggled over the decision to use one of these very fertile donors vs a not as fertile white donor. In the end, we've chosen the Greek donor because of fertility and his personal profile.

We will learn as much as we can about the Greek culture and teach our child so he/she is proud of their cultural heritage.

Hee hee, you can send your kid to Greek cultural immersion camp with my relatives... A summer on the island with my crazy family will teach him/her more than any book.

And congrats on a getting a donor with a high count. My horrific "morning" sickness is a testament to how important that can be...

[Diane B]

I'm kind of peeping in on this thread, because we already have a child, adopted, who is Guatemalan by heritage, while we are white (German and Eastern European Jewish by ancestry.) I wanted to pop in to direct folks to the wealth of thinking and conversation within the adoption community about transracial families of all sorts. I think it would be really valuable information for families with donors of different races than the moms. Pretty much any good adoption book or adoption discussion boards will have discussions about this. Whatever you decide, it's important to realize that this decision has a lot of implications for your child, and for your family.

I haven't seen anyone (yet) on this thread say something like, "Well, I don't even notice race. It doesn't matter to me." That's the number one red flag for me. Because yes, on a day to day personal basis with me and my partner and my daughter, inside the four walls of our home, I see us all as individuals and I'm not usually thinking about race/culture. But I guarantee you, when my daughter steps out into the world, it matters a ton. I know that when we are not around, our white privilege evaporates for her, and the older she gets, the more that will be the case. The previous poster that discussed the "cute" issue also had a good point. My daughter will be a teenager and then an adult, no longer "cute" but having to face the day to day realities of racism in America. (I might add that Guatemala also struggles with racism; the US does not hold the corner on that market.)

Deciding to be a multi-cultural family also affects where we choose to live, what schools we're choosing, sometimes which family members we will spend time with, who we include in our social circle, outside of school activities (for example, our daughter is starting Spanish classes), etc. etc.

Finally, I might add that I think it's really important for families to be raising anti-racist white children too. The world certainly doesn't have enough of those...

[frog]

I'm nodding along with everything you're saying about transracial adoption, Diane B--two of the Small Friends were adopted from China by white parents, and my SIL was adopted from Korea as an infant. One of the Small Friends' moms, in particular, is a very big influence on me in terms of the way I think about parenting in general, and parenting a child of another race in particular.

Originally Posted by Diane B

Deciding to be a multi-cultural family also affects where we choose to live, what schools we're choosing, sometimes which family members we will spend time with, who we include in our social circle, outside of school activities (for example, our daughter is starting Spanish classes), etc. etc.

I'm going to add "where we choose to vacation" to this list (which I'm sure you didn't intend as comprehensive, but you reminded me of something). We spent two weeks camping near the GA/FL state line last spring and realized very quickly that that's not someplace we'll ever choose to travel with our children.

[Kwynne]

Originally Posted by Diane B

Finally, I might add that I think it's really important for families to be raising anti-racist white children too. The world certainly doesn't have enough of those...

: This is a great great point.

Anybody read Anti-Racist Parent? I find myself a bit overwhelmed lately with life, but when I have time I've found some great reads on there.

I found this very interesting, nothing really new here to me, and of course echoes what many have said on this thread. Thougths? specifically about white privilege? What does that look like (or how do you feel you tackle this) to those of you who are white?

[SGrey]

I’ve gone back and forth on responding to this thread since it went up, especially since it’s a heck of a place to start with your first post, but since I’m constantly responding in my head as I read I’m giving up the fight. I do apologize in advance for the length.

My partner and I are both Native Americans though she’s of ‘purer’ blood than me. I can pass for white, depending on the crowd, whereas she cannot. For us we very much wanted a Native donor. A desire that has forced us to contact family members and ask if they knew of anyone that would be willing since there are almost no Native Anon donors. Sure, there are a few that claim Native blood but our experience with that is extremely untrusting. Perhaps it’s a prejudice of our own but in our experience there are a lot of Indian princesses out there. Unless they are card-carrying we are distrustful of the claim.

I suppose continuing with our bloodline is important to us because the amount of actual Natives in this country saddens us. Heritage is important, imo, though the tendency to tell ourselves (general our) otherwise is easy to do. Having said that and to be honest, without meaning to offend anyone, I’m always kind of put out by the idea of whites that deliberately seek out mixed or full blood children either to adopt or conceive. As a race, we have a lot of experience with that particular occurrence. Very little of it has been good.

I do think it’s possible for a white couple to raise a mixed child but I don’t believe it’s possible for them to ever really understand what that child is going through anymore than they can ever truly understand their experiences. I know that while I can understand what it must be like for a black person to watch other people look at them suspiciously, I cannot understand what that makes them feel inside. I cannot comprehend what it does to your self image or how it alters your perception of your own skin color or even how it affects simple interactions with people who inadvertently hit a nerve.

Racism, hatred and bigotry are not one big similar, shared experience that leads to true understanding across the board. If only it were that easy. Being discriminated against as a lesbian has its undeniable set of issues but that doesn’t translate to automatic similarities on racism due to skin color. You cannot protect a child from it. It is going to happen. Children notice things like that whether they say anything to you or not. They also tend to internalize a great deal no matter how idillic, open, and loving the relationship with their parents.

To give an example, my partner spent much of her childhood in Washington State during the time when Fishing and Gaming rights were in heavy dispute between ‘whites’ and Natives. When she was twelve, out one day with her parents, she saw bumper stickers beginning to crop up: Spear an Indian, save a fish. Around this same time she began to lose friends because their parents recognized her last name as Indian even if the children didn’t recognize her by appearance. They were ordered to stay away from her.

Those things are a small example of experiences. My point in detailing them, however brief, is to point out what they will possibly face. To those who are ‘white’ and actively seeking children of another race I would ask if you think you could really explain or understand what those experiences would make your child feel. The usual answers of it’s their issue, it’s not about you, people hate things that are different, etc only work for so long. When they age more detailed answers are desired. A greater understanding and moreover someone that does understand. I can tell you from our experiences, and that of cousins who are half black, when the white parent tried to explain or say they understood as we aged, we all rolled our eyes at least internally – amongst other things. Being empathetic, unfortunately, is not enough.

I saw mentioned that people would never question the decision to be with someone of another race if the discussion was about partners and spouses, that they do with children. That’s absolutely true. Neither would I. The difference being we’re not talking about adult consent. The two are incomparable to my mind. A couple of different races having a mixed child? No big deal. Why? Because at least there is one parent who is going to truly be able to relate and help them along.

As harsh as it sounds, and again without meaning to offend anyone, when the idea of having a child of another race to make a melting pot or because there are too many whites already really strikes me as the child becoming a social activism point. I’m sure that’s not how it is intended but try as I might I can’t shake that feeling.

I do believe that any person of any race can have a child with any other race but I believe when actively seeking that out that there are some serious implications and gaps to be considered. Bringing a child up in a healthy, loving, safe environment always counts the most. But what will happen to them outside of their homes cannot be discounted either. If you truly want to have a child that is of a race outside of that of both parents, I would strongly encourage anyone to seek out mentors and children of like backgrounds for them to be around.

Someone that really gets how they feel on the inside and understands what it means to be them, heritage and all, can make all the difference in the world. Case in point would be this board. Sure, most of us have straight friends we talk to too yet we still find our way to this board with other people that are going to understand all that is involved in queer parenting.

[frog]

Let me start by saying that I'm really glad that you went ahead and posted. IMO, more conversation makes for a better thread and, hopefully, more informed people.

Originally Posted by SGrey

I saw mentioned that people would never question the decision to be with someone of another race if the discussion was about partners and spouses, that they do with children. That’s absolutely true. Neither would I. The difference being we’re not talking about adult consent. The two are incomparable to my mind. A couple of different races having a mixed child? No big deal. Why? Because at least there is one parent who is going to truly be able to relate and help them along.

Well, yes and no. What happens when one of the parents dies? What happens when there's a divorce and one of the parents moves on in a way that doesn't include the kid(s)? Things happen, you know? And the idea of "consent" in terms of being born is, IMO, tricky, at best. If I'd have been consulted, I'd have voted no on being born to my parents. Does that mean I shouldn't exist?

Originally Posted by SGrey

As harsh as it sounds, and again without meaning to offend anyone, when the idea of having a child of another race to make a melting pot or because there are too many whites already really strikes me as the child becoming a social activism point. I’m sure that’s not how it is intended but try as I might I can’t shake that feeling.

I can understand that it would come across like that. That's not my intention. I'll need to come up with better language to talk about why we're doing this. I appreciate your candor.

Originally Posted by SGrey

I do believe that any person of any race can have a child with any other race but I believe when actively seeking that out that there are some serious implications and gaps to be considered. Bringing a child up in a healthy, loving, safe environment always counts the most. But what will happen to them outside of their homes cannot be discounted either. If you truly want to have a child that is of a race outside of that of both parents, I would strongly encourage anyone to seek out mentors and children of like backgrounds for them to be around.

Someone that really gets how they feel on the inside and understands what it means to be them, heritage and all, can make all the difference in the world. Case in point would be this board. Sure, most of us have straight friends we talk to too yet we still find our way to this board with other people that are going to understand all that is involved in queer parenting.

That's true, but I also can't understand in the way you're talking about what it means to be the child of lesbians, the child of a Christian and an atheist/pagan, a straight person, a bi person, or the son of someone. I don't think any of that precludes me from being a good parent to children who might be any number of those things.