Choosing a donor: Let's talk about race - Page 2

[pranava]

Originally Posted by SGrey

To those who are ‘white’ and actively seeking children of another race I would ask if you think you could really explain or understand what those experiences would make your child feel.
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If you truly want to have a child that is of a race outside of that of both parents, I would strongly encourage anyone to seek out mentors and children of like backgrounds for them to be around.

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Someone that really gets how they feel on the inside and understands what it means to be them, heritage and all, can make all the difference in the world.

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Case in point would be this board. Sure, most of us have straight friends we talk to too yet we still find our way to this board with other people that are going to understand all that is involved in queer parenting.

SGrey - Thank you for your post. I understand where you're coming from and I will keep those things in mind when raising a child of a different ethnicity than myself. Of course I will try to give my child cultural experiences and introduce them to groups of people with whom they can identify(AngleaM's family, maybe! just as I will try to introduce male role models into my children's lives.

I'm not sure how to express this next thought, so maybe some of you reading this can elaborate. . . Parents never understand their children. No one person ever knows what it's like to be another person. My parents cannot possibly begin to empathize with my experience as a lesbian, nor did they attempt to put me in contact with the GLBT community so that I might have a group to identify with. DESPITE THAT, I wouldn't want other parents, I found this board and my in person GLBT family myself, I internalized my experience and made sense of it myself.

Bottom line is that family isn't about all the members being similar. I am so very different than every other member of my family. My family does NOT understand me, but they do love me and tolerate my beliefs and lifestyle when they don't even believe in them. My being different from my family has taught my immediate and extended family(and it's a large one) to be more tolerant people. I think differences within families are good for bringing all of us to a more tolerant future.

It would have been nice to have parents who were gay to give me a heads up about things, but I've done alright by myself. Of course I will still try to introduce my child to their cultural heritage, but I think that ultimatley, every child finds their own way.

[SGrey]

Well, yes and no. What happens when one of the parents dies? What happens when there's a divorce and one of the parents moves on in a way that doesn't include the kid(s)? Things happen, you know? And the idea of "consent" in terms of being born is, IMO, tricky, at best. If I'd have been consulted, I'd have voted no on being born to my parents. Does that mean I shouldn't exist?

Oh ITA. I certainly wouldn't have voted to be born in the family I was. But to return to what I said, adult consent, doesn't translate well to that idea. When one parent dies, the other does the best they can. Life is never perfect, I'm not saying it is. The surviving parent does what they can and to some extent is still in a better position to understand the racism their child will experience than a white couple will be.

They in all likelihood will have experienced in it to some fashion or another with their spouse if only to witness how it affected their spouse/lover/partner. If they're out to dinner and one is the subject of racism, the other is going to feel it to some degree. It's still not the same but it certainly gives a starting point in a conversation. e.g. I remember once when I was out with your father and this happened and this is how it made me feel. We talked later and he said it made him feel like x, y, or z on the inside.

My overall point was that whether or not someone would bring it up in regards to being with someone of 'color' is not applicable in the case of children. They bring up an entirely different set of thoughts and issues.

I can understand that it would come across like that. That's not my intention. I'll need to come up with better language to talk about why we're doing this. I appreciate your candor.

Thanks for not reacting off the cuff. I was most hestitant about posting that but it was the one point I found myself reacting to the most.

That's true, but I also can't understand in the way you're talking about what it means to be the child of lesbians, the child of a Christian and an atheist/pagan, a straight person, a bi person, or the son of someone. I don't think any of that precludes me from being a good parent to children who might be any number of those things.

I don't mean to say it in any way precludes you from being a good parent. It doesn't. What I am saying is there is a lot to think about and many issues that probably won't be foreseen until they happen because well, honestly, you wouldn't view any situation the same way a person of the child's race, or the other half of their race, would. You might walk into an area where known Indian/white problems were frequent, with an Native child, and never once think about ahead of time that problems might arise and hatred might be directed toward him.

As a Native, that would be one of the first thoughts in my head. Yes, there are obvious areas to avoid - you mentioned the GA/FL line. But it's the subtle ones that you won't foresee. That won't, doesn't, make you a bad parent. None of us can foresee everything. It's just that we perceive every situation differently because of our own experiences especially with regards to racism.

Straight, bi, atheist, pagan, christian, lesbian... The list of comparable differences could go on forever. They each bring their own set off issues. Where they do not factor in, imo, is in that area where not a single one of them is necessarily obvious when you walk into a room. Sure, sometimes they are, but more often than not that's not the case. A mixed child, or a child of color, doesn't have that luxury. They will be judged by their skin color, in some places, the second someone sees them. The preceeding list will not be. Ever.

Bottom line is that family isn't about all the members being similar. I am so very different than every other member of my family. My family does NOT understand me, but they do love me and tolerate my beliefs and lifestyle when they don't even believe in them. My being different from my family has taught my immediate and extended family(and it's a large one) to be more tolerant people. I think differences within families are good for bringing all of us to a more tolerant future.

It would have been nice to have parents who were gay to give me a heads up about things, but I've done alright by myself. Of course I will still try to introduce my child to their cultural heritage, but I think that ultimatley, every child finds their own way.

Thanks for replying and same here. We are all so different - that's the beauty of humanity. Understanding differences, as much as we can, and learning to appreciate them will (hopefully) bring about a more tolerant future.

One thing I would point out in what you said though is that they love you and tolerate your beliefs and lifestyle. That as we all know brings it's own set of issues and takes some serious internalizing to make our peace with. My mother's side of the family is much the same in the tolerating aspect. But tolerance for a skin color is another matter. Most of us know the suicide rates for gay kids and young adults. They're staggering. So many do not find their way. They are often not able to deal with what's thrown at them. Self-hatred grows to saddening degrees that is most definitely compounded by their home life (the lack of acceptance) and their lives with friends. The fear and all the dozens of issues that brings up.

Children of mixed race have the strong potential to internalize a very similar self hatred especially if they feel (and kids do feel it) that they're being tolerated. The suicide rates are definitely lower but feeling wrong for your skin color rarely goes away. There are full children of other races who experience that and are never able to quite shake off the yoke that hangs tight around their necks from it. In some cases, but not all, it's equally if not even harder for children of mixed races as they never quite feel they belong anywhere.

[frog]

SGrey, I'm thinking about your most recent post. I don't have words, yet, but things are rolling around in my brain and I'll post when I have something to share that makes sense!

I've been thinking some about race v. ethnicity. pranava, what you're saying about making sure your kid has some time around Greek people and Greek culture has me wondering about something. For folks who choose a donor within their race but outside of their ethnicity, how much time is really spent on "honoring the child's ethnicity" or whatever? I mean, say turtle and I chose a donor who's Czech. Neither of us are Czech. Would there be any expectation on the part of others or effort on our part to honor our child's Czech heritage?

I'm thinking here about my own experience, where the Finnish and Slovak ancestry was really played up, but the German, not so much.

Mostly, I'm thinking aloud.

[pranava]

Good point Frog. Ethnicity and race are probably not the same issue. I myself am half Hungarian and the other half a mixture of many things. I consider myself Hungarian for the most part. My donor was born in Greece to Greek parents, so going on my own experience, I just assumed that my child would consider herself Greek. I guess I should wait and let my child decide what she considers herself.

[frog]

Originally Posted by pranava

I guess I should wait and let my child decide what she considers herself.

Dunno. I don't have any answers, I'm just thinking aloud, here.

[SGrey]

Hmm you bring up a good question Frog. How much attention is given to heritage is one of those things that varies from house to house, imo.

As I'm thinking about it though it seems heritage plays a bigger part in 1st and second generation American families who haven't yet had a big mix of ethnic backgrounds tossed into their family. At around the third gen and on down, depending on the family, less attention is given to it. Often as the older generation passes on.

Personally, I do believe learning about our own ethnic backgrounds is just as important as learning about other people's. There are things to be celebrated, to be proud of, traditions to learn and always there are mistakes to learn from.

I'm reminded of the old adage, you can't know where you're going until you know where you've been.

[Diane B]

Of course my daughter can consider herself anything she likes (right now, for example, she says she has black skin if you ask.) What I have to acknowledge as her white mom is that race (and ethnicity) are social constructions (as opposed to biological realities) and those social constructions will have implications for her in school, in her workplace, in her personal relationships, etc. As best as I can, I need to help her be aware of that. People will look at my daughter and see "Hispanic" or "Latina" or "immigrant" or other names I'm not going to mention here. The best that I can do is to raise her so that she knows we support her 100% and are here for her; to listen and validate her experiences; and to as much as possible offer her environments and situations that support her developing a positive identity as a girl/woman of color.

I have been thinking about this thread, and I hope you don't mind that an "already parenting" mom joining in. I can say that even in my fairly diverse urban setting, and in a place that ranks #1 in the number of transracial adoptive families (according to the census), I encounter uncomfortable situations with my daughter on a regular basis. Mostly, at this point, it consists of people CONSTANTLY commenting on her hair, (which, I might add, is entirely ordinary for anyone from Latin America with indigenous heritage) but apparently merits excessive comments when we are out in public. And there is something in these comments that is really over the top, like people are overcompensating because they notice my daughter's ethnicity and don't know how else to respond. Adoptive Families magazine ran an excellent article about this two issues ago from a mom who experiences the exact same thing with her daughters, so I know it's not just me being overly sensitive!

[Kwynne]

Originally Posted by Diane B

... so I know it's not just me being overly sensitive!

No, you are right on about the comments. We live in a predominantly white area, and we get comments about our son's hair ALL THE TIME. I'm wondering if anyone will ever comment on my partner's hair, because it is almost identical - except that she is white, and he isn't.

About what our kid's want to consider themselves in terms of race... (and also ethinicity, although I haven't really thought about this, because we see ethnicity as social and not 'in the blood', like race, of course) I have thougth a lot about this. One thing that I realize is that even though I am of colour, and can guide my son on how to deal with general racism, the complexities of how he shapes and understands his mixed race heritage will be something he made need other resources for (beyond myself and my partner). We have many friends with kids who are mixed race, and we hope the community we build will provide that space for him. Although I do agree that he can consider himself whatever he wants, I know that many are likely to slot him into one thing (black, male). I do echo Diane that race is definitely socially constructed and varies depending on time and place, I know that often it can become quite restrictive, so that folks of colour often feel they have no room to move beyond what racist definitions have been provided for them. I hope in 10 or so more years this will change.

[frog]

Originally Posted by Diane B

...I hope you don't mind that an "already parenting" mom joining in.

Not at all! I'm thrilled that you're here. I think that there are definitely overlapping issues, no matter how we build our families, when we're talking about race, ethnicity and culture.

[frog]

Kwynne, I'm finally getting around to reading some of the posts on that site. It's outstanding. Thank you!

[Coco99]

Very interesting discussion !

I agree that race isnt what is most important in chosing a donor. However, my love and I have decided to pick a donor our own race for the following reason. My gf comes from a conservative area of the US. For her family, there is already alot of "otherness" to deal with reguarding our relationship... being two girls, her having immigrated to Canada... and now just having a child together will add to that as well. We figured that adding color to the palette was just going to add too much... and we do hope that they will play an active part in our child's life. It takes time to change mentalities, sometimes a progressive approach is necessary... one thing at the time ! So thats why we made our choice this way.

Coco

[Chancita]

differences between races and perceptions of races too

Interesting thread here.

I am fair and my partner is native american - we chose an Asian donor.

It has been interesting to me, people's multi-varied responses to our kids. Asian people immediately know that they are "mixed" but many others often do not. My partner has been asked "where she got them," but because she is butch, not because they are "mixed". I have been asked why they don't "look like me" because their hair and eye colors are different. I have countlessly corrected people (inlcuding those within my own family) that "Oriental" is not an appropriate way to describe them. Nor is "chinky". <gasp>.

Interestingly too, there are so many adopted Chinese girls here as well as a large Asian community that I think the racial response is more positive than negative for our children. I don't think this would be the case if they were mixed from using another race.

Another aside, my best friend is latte colored and used a fair donor to match her partner. Their daughter is very fair and she gets the "are you the nanny" question disgustingly often.

Another aside, I'm from Georgia and I just spent almost three years living in Florida. I know it was just an example, but I have to say something about the line regarding choosing where we vacation. We will take our children any where that we feel safe and can reasonably keep them safe. This has included Florida, rural Georgia, the Georgia mountains. It is my experience that there are stupid people, rednecks, homophobes and racists everywhere. That's not to say that sometimes they aren't concentrated, but really, you can encounter those things anywhere. My partner and I were accosted my a homeless man at the Harvey Milk Plaza in San Francisco who started yelling at us for being "effing dykes". Pretty much the last place in the world that I would expect to be targeted for being gay. Assuming that personal safety is not an issue, I think it's important to teach my children how to appropriately respond to homophobes, racists, bigots, etc. Many a burly redneck has backed down when I've turned and said, "I'm a dyke, what's your point?"


Anyway,
just my $.02

[frog]

Originally Posted by Chancita

Another aside, I'm from Georgia and I just spent almost three years living in Florida. I know it was just an example, but I have to say something about the line regarding choosing where we vacation. We will take our children any where that we feel safe and can reasonably keep them safe. This has included Florida, rural Georgia, the Georgia mountains. It is my experience that there are stupid people, rednecks, homophobes and racists everywhere. That's not to say that sometimes they aren't concentrated, but really, you can encounter those things anywhere.

I was the one who said that and while I hear you, I stand by what I said, both in terms of personal safety and in terms of not intentionally putting my (hypothetical, at this point) kids in harm's way. It's one thing for turtle and me to be denied service (which happened to us in St. Marys, GA)--we're adults and while it's infuriating, it's not the end of the world. It's another thing to take my kids to a place where something like that has happened to me/us.

That's not to say that I'll never vacation in Georgia, but I won't go back to the place where we were treated so poorly, kids or no.

[Kwynne]

Originally Posted by Coco99

I agree that race isnt what is most important in chosing a donor.

uh..did you read the thread? I think you may have missed some points.

We figured that adding color to the palette was just going to add too much... and we do hope that they will play an active part in our child's life. It takes time to change mentalities, sometimes a progressive approach is necessary... one thing at the time ! So thats why we made our choice this way.

As I've said before this always bothers me. Adding "colour" would be adding too much, or ONE THING AT A TIME. I'm many things at the same time. And even if you occupy the dominant position (whether race, class, sexuality etc.) it doesn't mean you are not accountable for your own anti-oppression education. When people makes these comments, it sounds like they think they do not need to worry about racism or what marginalized people have to experience. Although I often hate comparing oppressions, I'm gonna do it here - don't we ask that straight people become accountable for their and society's heterosexism by deconstructing the nuclear hetero family as normal? I would hope that white queers would also take this up when planning families - and not engage in this attitude that if we chose a white donor, we have it all figured out in terms of race.

I wonder Coco, do you not see yourself, your partner and your children as 'racialized' or is that not of concern to you becuase your whiteness is normalized? I see you live in Montreal, a city where many POCs live and an there is a large activist community around queer and race issues. I'm wondering if you are planning to interrogate your assumptions, and, as Diane stated, raise anti-racist white kids? And what does that look like to you?

[Chancita]

of course!

Frog,
Of course I wouldn't intentionally expose myself and especially my children to a situation where I/we would experience bigotry either. But, I also wouldn't write off a whole area, region or even necessarily a town because of a bad experience either. That's more what I was getting at, being from Georgia and all
Chance

[spedteacher30]

kwynne--

it's good to see you here. it has been a while...


i don't have a ton to add, though I will say that loving my wife in no way prepared me with the knowledge to be a parent to a child of color.

I have told C before that as much as I love her, her experiences with racism are her pain, separate from me. I can only view them as an outsider, though there are a few experiences we have shared as an inter-racial couple.

However, as soon as Bigfella was born, it became clear to me that a piece of me, my heart, my soul--in a far more primal way than in my love for my wife--was branded in the eyes of society as "other", as "less than", as "danger."

as we near Bigfella's second birthday, I am still shocked with how little I know. I learn every day, and am humbled every day by the truly awesome task of parenting.

I suppose we have been blessed so far. The people of color we know have been very welcoming to me, and invited me into their lives. The white people we know have been wonderfully supportive of our family. But, I realize over and over and over again the "privilege" I have (and I put that into quotes not because I don't believe it exists, but because I think the term is incorrect, and normalizes sub-standard treatment of people of color) will never be available to my child, and there are times when it just makes me tired...

[frog]

Originally Posted by Chancita

Frog,
Of course I wouldn't intentionally expose myself and especially my children to a situation where I/we would experience bigotry either. But, I also wouldn't write off a whole area, region or even necessarily a town because of a bad experience either. That's more what I was getting at, being from Georgia and all
Chance

Oh, I totally hear you. I did love Georgia, I just remained peeved at St. Marys.

[Diane B]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30

kwynne--
I suppose we have been blessed so far. The people of color we know have been very welcoming to me, and invited me into their lives. The white people we know have been wonderfully supportive of our family. But, I realize over and over and over again the "privilege" I have (and I put that into quotes not because I don't believe it exists, but because I think the term is incorrect, and normalizes sub-standard treatment of people of color) will never be available to my child, and there are times when it just makes me tired...

Thanks for sharing this. You articulated this beautifully. We are starting to look at schools for our daughter and I want what every parent wants - for the world to see my daughter for the wonderful, unique human being she is. We are just beginning, for example, to look into elementary schools. And I worry about finding a school that can include and welcome ALL of who she is, without either stereotyping or denying her heritage. This feels like her first big step away from the circle of our family (our daycare is a parent-run co-op and very small.)

[Sugerson]

Interesting - our KD is half Japanes and discussed with us his feelings about the cultural understanding. We were tentative at first about having a child with a heritage that we did not understand, but then he said, "I may be Japanese and proud but you can share that experience of learning the culture with your child." He feels that as intelligent individuals we can learn with our children the history, struggles and experiences of those from japanese descent. I understand the importance placed on teaching children the culture, but I disagree that those not from that background can learn that information and pass it on. How can I teach my child that is not from the African descent about the struggles and plight of that community? As parents I think it is our responsibility to teach our children about all struggles people face in this world - as a teacher I can tell you it is not taught in the schools (unless of course they are in my classroom ;0)! My partner is a professor of sociology and originally from Wyoming - understanding the struggles caused by insititutions designed to place one group above another and afford them privilages not available to other can be learned. As an educator it can be taught too!

Hmmmmmm...great discussion! I worried when we first recieved the information from the sperm bank...we started with frozen...but recognize that children may not be a social activism point, but hopefully we can help them to change the world!

[Milvudeeshna]

Originally Posted by frog

It's one thing for turtle and me to be denied service (which happened to us in St. Marys, GA)

Not to get too off-topic, but would you mind sharing (either here or in pm) exactly where this happened?? My partner and I are considering going down to St. Mary's, and we want to be sure to avoid having our $$ inadvertently go to such a place. Although, they'd probably refuse service to us too, once they took one good look at DP.