How would you use GD to respond to outright "disobedience"?

[monkeybum]

Okay, I know, I hate that word, just wasn't sure what else to call it...

Here are examples from this week:

# 1 - DS (nearly 4) asks DH if he can eat a halloween treat/mini chocolate bar before dinner. DH says no, he can have it after dinner. DS thinks for a minute, then takes the choc bar under the dining room table, eats it, comes back in the kitchen, holds up his hand and says to DH, "don't talk dad", puts the candy wrapper in the garbage and leaves the room. (When I found out, I told him I was proud of him for asking if he could have the candy and appreciated him putting the wrapper in the garbage, but that I didn't like that he didn't listen to dad and that he'd get a sore tummy if he ate only chocolate and had no room for healthy food - but other than that, I just let it go).

# 2 - DS and I make Christmas cookies. When they are done, I say we can each have one before bed, and we put the rest on a tray for a party we are having the next day. I cover it with Saran and put it on the dining room table. DS says he wants another, I say not before bed, we'll get a tummy ache, we baked them for the party, etc. We go upstairs. While I'm getting jammies on DS#2 and nursing him to sleep, DS#1 is supposed to be watching a video. I find out he's snuck downstairs, climbed on the table, stolen a cookie and is hiding behind the couch eating it. (I told him to come out, said he could have one more bite, but that the rest was going in the garbage because he didn't listen when I said no more cookies tonight. That was that).

# 3 - DS climbs on the counter and opens the cupboard. I ask him what he wants, he says he wants the Dora Candy in there, (don't ask me why we even have it in our cupboard...). I say "no", we are not having Dora Candy for breakfast. I put the box back, get him down and offer him several other food alternatives. He declines them all. 10 minutes later after I go upstairs to change DS#2, I come down to find DS#1 has pushed the chair back over, climbed on the counter, taken the whole BOX of Dora Candy and is hiding behind the curtains eating them. He's on his second package when I arrive on the scene. (I took the box, told him he can finish that package but that the rest are going in the garbage b/c he didn't listen when I asked him not to eat them and asked him to eat a healthy breakfast instead. I threw them out, he didnt' bat an eye)

This is a new behavior as of this week so I want to figure out how to respond in the best way. I tried explaining that dad and I tell him things for a reason, not just to be mean, (i.e. so he has energy for gymnastics, so he doesn't get a tummy ache, etc.). I think it goes over his head...

I generally try to let him make decisions whenever I can, but he is really testing things I think. I don't want to just let it go when he out right goes against what I've asked him nicely to do, but I'm not sure how to handle it. Today I asked him to get in the car - it was freezing, the babe was crying, and he just took off, saying "Okay, I won't listen...".

Help! Any thoughts???

Kathy

[LilyGrace]

To be blunt - sounds like he needs more watching at this age. Take him with you when you nurse the baby, change her, etc. He simply needs more attention focused on him right now.

I look at it this way - I can't punish for disobedience. 1. I don't want blind obedience and 2. there really isn't a logical consequence here (make more candy?). So the only only thing left to do is to prevent the situation from happening in the first place. A child isn't going to have time to eat two packs of candy if mom is very aware of where he is and not just trusting him to listen to your words. He's 3 - not the most trustworthy age, you know? They're still impulsive little creatures who, when they lie, do it to change reality, not to be sneaky. He might know what he is supposed to do, but the temptation is greater.

[allgirls]

I have found that my 4 year old has less impulse control right now than she did at 3, or maybe she's not as easily redirected, distracted and has stronger opinions.

anyway...right now I keep things out of reach a lot. Until she's able to have control. With all the Christmas baking going on now though, she is getting more than the usual amount of sweets. So I have started talking about moderation and stuff.

Of course when it comes to Christmas cookies, I have less impulse control than she does

[Daffodil]

I don't like to put the emphasis on "listening" or "not listening," because that really means "obeying," and automatic obedience is not something I want my kids to learn (as convenient as it might be for me if they did.) So in those situations, I wouldn't throw food away as a punishment for not listening; I (ideally) wouldn't even complain about my DS not listening. I would just say that I was unhappy he had eaten so much candy, and mention again the reasons why I hadn't wanted him to eat it.

Some other observations:
He probably hasn't ever gotten a tummy ache from eating forbidden candy or cookies, and probably never will, so he's not likely to buy that as a reason to avoid them. You might want think a bit about your REAL reasons for limiting sweets, and how you could explain them to him.

Almost all the examples you gave are about food. I wonder how it would work if you simply let him eat candy or cookies whenever he wanted to (or at least have a lot fewer limits.) Maybe then he'd get over the need to sneak them, and maybe you'd be surprised at how well he'd moderate himself. I don't actually let my kids eat all the sweet stuff they want absolutely whenever they want it, but I don't limit it much. I used to think it could never work to allow kids to just eat whatever they wanted, until I stopped to think about the fact that that's exactly the way I eat, and I've always been healthy and not overweight.

I also agree with the idea that you may just need to rely less on words and more on other ways of preventing these situations.

[leila1213]

I think having sweets in the house is just to hard for everyone, me and DH especially. So whenever possible, I would not have them around. If it is for something special like a party, I would try to make it a healthy/wholesome treat that you can make extra of and let him have as much as he wants.

I also appreciate the comments above regarding the word "listening" and trying to explain the real reasons for wanting/not wanting a particular behavior (eating sweets). With the baby I say things are "yucky" or "for Mommy, not Baby" but I'm sure that won't fly for too much longer. I also like the more supervision idea.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Daffodil

I don't like to put the emphasis on "listening" or "not listening," because that really means "obeying," and automatic obedience is not something I want my kids to learn (as convenient as it might be for me if they did.) So in those situations, I wouldn't throw food away as a punishment for not listening; I (ideally) wouldn't even complain about my DS not listening. I would just say that I was unhappy he had eaten so much candy, and mention again the reasons why I hadn't wanted him to eat it.

Some other observations:
He probably hasn't ever gotten a tummy ache from eating forbidden candy or cookies, and probably never will, so he's not likely to buy that as a reason to avoid them. You might want think a bit about your REAL reasons for limiting sweets, and how you could explain them to him.

Almost all the examples you gave are about food. I wonder how it would work if you simply let him eat candy or cookies whenever he wanted to (or at least have a lot fewer limits.) Maybe then he'd get over the need to sneak them, and maybe you'd be surprised at how well he'd moderate himself. I don't actually let my kids eat all the sweet stuff they want absolutely whenever they want it, but I don't limit it much. I used to think it could never work to allow kids to just eat whatever they wanted, until I stopped to think about the fact that that's exactly the way I eat, and I've always been healthy and not overweight.

I also agree with the idea that you may just need to rely less on words and more on other ways of preventing these situations.

This.

Less limiting sweets and more letting him indulge in the holiday season like everyone else!

[LuckyMommaToo]

Funny, my four year old DS has also become obsessed with sweets (I think since Halloween). He has already had fillings, so I'm not open to doing unlimited. What's worked for us is to tell him that he gets one treat a day. What it is and when he eats it is up to him. I've also removed all sweets to above the refrigerator, so they're really out of reach.

This is the best compromise I can come up with -- he gets to pick when and what, but not how much. I explained the rule the day before. The next day, he asked for his sweet right after breakfast, and he got it. He asked for something later, I reminded him, and he was fine. It's like now that there's a limit he understands, he's okay.

Good luck!
-Erin

[ShaggyDaddy]

Originally Posted by monkeybum

How would you use GD to respond to outright "disobedience"?

By not expecting outright obedience in the first place.

I would re-examine your rules system, and especially the justifications you have set forth. They are not intentionally deceptive, but they are not true.

Did he get a stomache ache from the cookie that you told him would give him a stomache ache? No? then the consequences you set out are not realistic and therefore will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Will a chocolate bar really make it so he physically cannot eat dinner? Did it? Well then it will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Why should he listen to consequences that do not actually come true, why should he believe future consequences when past ones he was warned about were wrong?

If the sweets are an issue, get rid of them descretly. If the sweets are not an issue, then don't make them into one, or at least carefully choose your words for accuracy, because empty natural consequences are as useless as empty punnishment consequences.

[my3peanuts]

Why are you telling him no and then when you find him with it anyway you allow him "one more bite" or to finish the package? I feel like it's telling him the "consequence" of getting into something you said not to get into is being allowed another taste, which can't be very affective.

I know that for my 4 year old telling her that the candy will give her a tummyache is not something that is going to deter her from doing it again. Heck, I'm 26 and there are times I know something will give me a tummyache and I eat it anyway!

[leila1213]

What about telling them if they want something they need to bring it to you and ask you before eating it? Instead of just saying the item is always off limits... Would that makes sense GD-wise? Then if they bring something to you you could explain that they can have it after dinner, or just one, or whatever. I love when my DD brings me things that she knows I've told her were off-limits in the past (like change, or paper clips, or something else she could choke on). I would love it if this could continue...

[AidynElyMama]

I'm new the GD and just wanted to thank you for great advice in this thread. Really great ideas, the thought of letting them learn by themselves how to mederate is an eye opener for me

[mistymama]

I have not read the other responses so sorry if this is repeating anything.

The first thing that jumps out at me is that he needs more supervision or you need to remove the temptation so it's not even an issue.

I've got a kid who could care less about sweets, but just the other day he took a marker and drew all over his wall and then blamed his imaginary friend. Ugh. So yeah, I guess I let the markers be put down without supervision a bit too soon.

I'm all for preventing temptation or situations where a kid might fail. So I'd recommend throwing out the Dora candy, hiding the cookies really well and pretty much eliminating that temptation for him.

[heidirk]

Originally Posted by AidynElyMama

I'm new the GD and just wanted to thank you for great advice in this thread. Really great ideas, the thought of letting them learn by themselves how to mederate is an eye opener for me

This is a wonderful idea. Unfortunately medical science has discovered that there are people who do not have the automatic 'off switches' that allow them to self regulate. I cannot self regulate food without literally writing down what I'm allowed to eat and what not. I have an insulin problem(not diabetes) that my dad has too. And when I was small I could eat myself sick and still feel hungry. :

I would talk more about moderation, about how, we only need just enough of everything. Like, 'one person only needs one bicycle because we can only ride one at a time.' or "our bodies only need a very small bit of sugar, and lots and lots of veggies and (insert healthy food here)" The sillier you make the other things we might have too much of( hair for instance!) thelonger you'll have his attention.

A teacher and father of two small children told me not to be afraid to 'talk over their heads' a bit because you never know how much they actually get, and you want to give them thebenefit of the doubt. I've discovered he's right.

You might also consider that your DS needs more snacks! Hunger can override self discipline in a heartbeat! Maybe when you have to focus on his sib you can sit him near you with a book and a snack?
Dr. Sears says to fill thecompartments of an ice cube traywith assorted healthy things and leave it out for the toddler to have at will. If you can stand the mess, it's worth a try!

[anthasam]

Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy

By not expecting outright obedience in the first place.

I would re-examine your rules system, and especially the justifications you have set forth. They are not intentionally deceptive, but they are not true.

Did he get a stomache ache from the cookie that you told him would give him a stomache ache? No? then the consequences you set out are not realistic and therefore will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Will a chocolate bar really make it so he physically cannot eat dinner? Did it? Well then it will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Why should he listen to consequences that do not actually come true, why should he believe future consequences when past ones he was warned about were wrong?

If the sweets are an issue, get rid of them descretly. If the sweets are not an issue, then don't make them into one, or at least carefully choose your words for accuracy, because empty natural consequences are as useless as empty punnishment consequences.

I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.

[anthasam]

Originally Posted by heidirk

I would talk more about moderation, about how, we only need just enough of everything. Like, 'one person only needs one bicycle because we can only ride one at a time.' or "our bodies only need a very small bit of sugar, and lots and lots of veggies and (insert healthy food here)" The sillier you make the other things we might have too much of( hair for instance!) the longer you'll have his attention.

I like this idea, thanks.

[aprons_and_acorns]

Originally Posted by anthasam

I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.

I know this question was directed at another poster, but I explain to my son that eating too many (cookies, candies, etc) means he might not be hungry for all of the nutritious foods that help build his body. I don't like him to think that certain foods will "harm" him because he is a kid who naturally kind of worries about things like that. I just treat the junky stuff as being neutral.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

My 3.5 year old harrassed me endlessly when there is junk in the house, which used to be never but now is always since my ILs moved in. It's very annoying. I've started gating the kitchen and locking up the cabinets so she can't get access when I'm not looking.

[IdahoMom]

I DO expect obedience, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I am the parent. My children need guidance, limits, rules and boundaries, and someone to uphold them. I try my darndest to uphold them using means that do not include shaming or corporal punishment, so I still consider myself to be using gentle discipline (or at least trying really hard. I'm not perfect). Just because you might not be on the consensual living side of things doesn't mean you're not gentle.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by anthasam

I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.

I explain to my kids that there are foods that help their bodies grow and be strong, and give them enough energy to do what they want to do. Other foods give them energy for a short bit, but it doesn't last, and it doesn't help their bodies grow strong and tall. (To which dd (3) asked: "How does it help your body grow?" "Wide," I responded!)

To the OP: might also want to think about relaxing your candy/sweets policy a bit. There's good research that suggests that policing sweets makes kids want to indulge in them more, even if they aren't hungry. Kids who are allowed to largely self regulate learn to self-regulate. Now, I do limit sweets just before dinner, but my reasoning is "I want you to be hungry for dinner". We do try to limit snacks before bedtime to 2, but they're OK with that. And if ds is still hungry after 2 sweet things, then we explain that he probably needs something that will help fill him up and stay with him more. He's got a real sweet tooth. Yet, he's got 2/3 of his Halloween candy left because he doesn't want to eat it all at once!

[LilyGrace]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I explain to my kids that there are foods that help their bodies grow and be strong, and give them enough energy to do what they want to do. Other foods give them energy for a short bit, but it doesn't last, and it doesn't help their bodies grow strong and tall. (To which dd (3) asked: "How does it help your body grow?" "Wide," I responded!)

I came up with an idea when my two were preschool age and just learning about different types of food. Has anyone seen Richard Simmon's Food Mover? I found one at a thrift store and took that idea and ran with it. I created posters with all the different food groups and how much we should eat of each - there was a row of 8 fruits-n-veggies pictures, a set of 3 dairy...and so on, including 1 sweets and candy. Anytime the kids ate something from the food group, we put a magnet over it and cheered healthy eating.

We didn't use it too long, about 6 months or so, but the visualization really helped to instill good eating habits and moderation in the kids. All of a sudden it wasn't just me talking. It was a plan they could really see.